Talk:Segway/Archive 1

Removed this
"The rider steers by leaning in the direction she wishes to travel, not by using a steering wheel."

The steering on all the demos I've seen was with a twist grip on the right handlebar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Conversion script (talk • contribs) 15:51, 25 February 2002

Additional wheels?
Also all the Segway I have seen have a stand, not an additional pair of wheels. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.161.104.2 (talk • contribs) 09:19, 23 September 2004

Inclusions
This article should include a discussion of the efforts Kamen has made to make Segway legal (after tremendous lobbying, I believe Segway is now road-legal in 33 states) as well as the ban on Segway in San Francisco. GabrielF 05:07, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Two history sections?
Why does this article have two history sections? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.165.50 (talk • contribs) 16:10, 12 March 2005

Customer's views
It may be interesting to note that Segway has claimed that it "does not accept any unsolicited design suggestions or proposed inventions with respect to the Segway(tm) Human Transporter (HT), or for any invention or design idea whatsoever." Perhaps this is relevant to the main article? CoolGuy 20:27, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Typos
This needs to be fixed: "In November 2004 Josh Caldwell became the first individual to complete a trans-continental trip from Seattle to Boston" Going from Seattle to Boston isn't going Trans-Continental ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stilroc (talk • contribs) 07:32, 3 May 2005


 * What isn't transcontinental about Seattle to Boston? This seems to pretty well go across North America to me. -Ethan0 9 July 2005 08:21 (UTC)

Also, the following doesn't make sense (to me, anyway): "John Doerr predicted $1 billion in sales faster than after any other product launch"

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Stilroc (talk • contribs) 07:34, 3 May 2005


 * It could be worded better. I have rephrased. (the English language was not designed for this sort of sentence. Miserable thing.) -Ethan0 9 July 2005 08:21 (UTC)
 * I've reworded it again. Let me know if you think this works any better. Often it's harder to editing extant writing than to do things from scratch, and we're all working with prose written by committee. :) Inter lingua  talk email 23:32, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Patented?
Wha, this is patented? "When tilt sensor senses tilt, motor accelerates in direction of tilt." Segway in 11 words.

Next I bet they're gonna patent left/right acceleration id est bicycles. --Ihope127 20:36, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Where's the hype?
This might be personal bias, but I don't think this entry accurately portrays the absurd media circus surrounding the Segway, back before the actual product was unveiled. Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos were apparently convinced the thing was better than the Second Coming curing cancer while inventing sliced fish. Christ on a gyroscopic bike, indeed. The SHT may well have been the most crushing anticlimax in contemporary advertising history, and methinks the ad campaign left too much of an impression to be all but disregarded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.64.210.95 (talk • contribs) 08:50, 30 July 2005


 * I agree. The hype surrounding "IT" before the unveiling is news-worthy by itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.147.192.50 (talk • contribs) 04:41, 15 December 2005


 * This page was mentioned and linked from List of commercial failures. Shawnc 17:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I also agree. I came here looking for a timeline. Apparently the hype began in January 2001 with a public unveiling in December 2001. Here's a research article I found: http://news.com.com/2009-1040-994541.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.50.10.6 (talk • contribs) 13:53, 7 July 2006

SEGway
The SEGway is an APM system aswell, like Personal Rapid Transit. The future of transport. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.166.28.197 (talk • contribs) 11:03, 5 August 2005


 * "The future of transport." ... hahahahahhaha —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rizla (talk • contribs) 01:00, 19 April 2006

George Bush
"A Segway-related presidential blooper occurred when President George W. Bush fell off his Segway, reportedly because he had neglected to turn it on. BBC News"

Where in that news article does it say he forget to turn it on? Im going to remove this if noone can get some proof, it seems like good ol Bush Bashing Anouymous 16:26, 6 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Back on the subject of Bush bashing, an anonymous user keeps reverting the trivia to read, "Bush managed to fall off of his Segway," which is more charged and less neutral than, "Bush fell off his Segway." I've fixed it, but the person seems somewhat persistant.  Mance 22:02, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

What does this mean?
Second sentence of second 'paragraph' of history section; "After several months Amazon and then the official site started regular sales."

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.112.122.119 (talk • contribs) 05:32, 8 October 2005

Cleanup
Cleaned up a lot of typos and bad grammar; also removed quite a few bits that seemed very POV--the article read like it was defending the Segway from detractors more than an informational piece.

Totally removed and retooled this paragraph: "Although ideal for the dense urban enviornment, The Segway HT is marketed as a recreation device. Unfortunately, American suburbs and many late twentieth-century cities (such as Los Angeles) were designed to be navigated mostly by automobiles. Although 80% of trips travelled in automobiles are less than 5 miles (ideal for the Segway HT), Americans have not flocked to the Segway HT. Shorter distances between work, home and shopping areas make getting around on Segway HTs more possible. It remains to be seen, however, if Segway HTs will be more successful in these markets."

It is very POV, not to mention potentially erroneous--by what basis are trips of 5 miles or less ideal for the Segway? Near as I can tell, it'd take anywhere between 5 and 6 minutes to travel a mile (at maximum speed), and half an hour to travel five miles--trips that take less than a minute in automobiles. Mance 13:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Five mile trips that take less than a minute in automobiles? Maybe if your car goes 300 mph! I do get your point, but realistically, you probably can travel only about 30 mph on average in the city with traffic thus over a 5 mile trip in the car would be about 10 minutes while the Segway would take about 25 minutes. So 15 minutes extra travel time seems like a reasonable cutoff for a definition of convenience but I agree is totally arbitrary and has no place in a factual article. Ccscott 22:08, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Steve Jobs
I'm pretty sure Steve Jobs denied ever having said that "cities would be redesigned" around the segway. He is certainly on record having said that he thought the design "sucked" when he first saw it. His initial introduction is discussed at http://hbsworkingknowledge.hbs.edu/pubitem.jhtml?id=3533&t=innovation among other places. Uucp 22:21, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I seem to recall on Tv they were talking about Steve Jobs hyping it up in that exact way, "cities would be redesigned." TostitosAreGross 14:04, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I know that Segway wants you to believe Jobs said this, but I am pretty sure I heard him deny it. Does anybody have a source that actually quotes Jobs, rather than Segway reporting what Jobs (supposedly) told them? Uucp 21:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

largest servo motor? peltier? zero angular momentum?
"The Segway uses the worlds' largest servo motor."

Under what definition? Using the definition linked a crane uses servo motors (usually hydraulic) for positioning the cab and jib angles. Radio telescopes use electric servo motors for aiming. What is the intended meaning?

"... The Peltier effect might be used. ..."

What does this mean exactly? Is the author suggesting that peltier effect junctions might be used for generating power for the segway? That seems fairly ludicrous as the most efficient junctions are about 10% of carnot, don't operate much above 150C and have a very poor power density. Is this verifiable or is it just someone's supposition? A fuel cell is far more likely.

"Stirling engines do have zero angular momentum and reduced vibration and are thus well suited for two-wheeled vehicles."

What does 'zero angular momentum' mean in this context? That stirling engines do not have rotating parts? I've built several stirling engines and they have all got rotating flywheels. It is possible to built a stirling engine without a flywheel, but such a scheme might also be used with a conventional two-stroke engine. Is extra angular momentum really a problem - surely it can be overcome with slightly more power to the wheels and a minimal flywheel. njh 02:06, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Licensing
Has Segway HT technology been, or will it ever be lisenced to potential manufactures? I certainly hope so. Myrtone@Segway HT.com.au


 * Yes indeed - it's called "Segway Smart Motion" and the first company to license it is WowWee. http://www.segway.com/products/smart_motion/ (Hmm, maybe the RoboSapien will get his own mini-Segway... hehe...) I'll add something about licensing tomorrow (and maybe make a few other edits...) Tophtucker 04:17, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Other self-balancing devices
"According to the company's website, Kamen was first inspired to create the Segway after seeing a man in a wheelchair struggle to get over a kerb. That led him to create an all-terrain, self-balancing device for the physically handicapped, which, in turn, led him to wonder what the same technology could do for people who can walk."

If the company is making some claim, we should quote them, but I think rather that the Segway is Kamen's second self-balancing device, not the "world's first" such. We are not a sale brochure but an encyclopedia. Let's separate the facts from the hype. --Uncle Ed 16:50, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

"One of Kamen's most significant inventions is the Independence™ IBOT™ Mobility System, unveiled in 1999. The IBOT is an amazing battery-powered wheelchair designed to give the disabled the same mobility and freedom as people with use of their legs. It can climb stairs and stand upright on two wheels, enabling users to see at eye-level—activities once unthinkable for wheelchair-bound individuals. The IBOT employs an advanced system of sensors, gyroscopes and computers to constantly adjust and balance itself and keep the user stabilized."

Okay, I found a quote: "When Dean Kamen unveiled the Segway® Human Transporter (HT) on ABC's Good Morning America, he described the machine as 'the world's first self-balancing human transporter.'"

Now it's Kamen calling it the world's first, instead of Wikipedia calling it that. --Uncle Ed 17:04, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Proposed addition:
 * Bombardier was a 2003 Industrial Design Excellence Award (IDEA) Gold Award winner for a concept vehicle similar to a Segway. Bombardier's design, called the EMBRIO 2025, incorporates a small, narrow pair of wheels that retract or deploy from the front to stabilize the otherwise single wheeled device when speeds are 20 km/h (12.5 MPH) * or less, or anytime when power is no longer applied, such as when the vehicle is at rest, or power is no longer available, such as when available power is at the minimum threshold for continued safe operation. Fuel Cells are specified for power. As of November 2006, the concept has not been taken past the design stage. See also Bombardier's July 2003 press release:


 * Note: IDEA Award states 20 mph, but Bombardier themselves indicate 20 kmh. 207.47.142.19 13:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC) J2B

New details added
I added some interesting details in the Technology section as to how the Segway actually moves and balances itself. I have found that most people do not understand this system. I learned how it works by reading the Code Name Ginger book. Some of the wording might be a little fuzzy/unclear/awkward, but I tried to keep it easy to understand yet descriptive. If you can think of a better way to word something without losing the meaning or simplicity of the sentence, I encourage you to edit it! Of course, if you feel that I made an error in the description or have something to add, feel free to edit that as well (or discuss it here). Enjoy! --smileyborg 03:40, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Osama
"A cover of The New Yorker magazine features Osama Bin Laden and a member of Al Qaeda riding Segways on a mountain road, presumably in Afghanistan."

This isn't referenced and appears either to be bizzarre vandalism or it was a joke image or satire. Either way, it needs to be clarified or removed... Nil Einne 07:47, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Maybe add a notice that it needs a reference for now, then delete it if nothing happens after a while. --smileyborg 03:16, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

POV
This article still has some slanted POV and "weasel words". Most glaring, I removed the phrase "Some detractors (who often assume $40K SUVs are an essential expense)" from "Models and Price" where comparing the price of the Segway HT price to bicycles or scooters. This a purely inflammatory and author-assumed point of view; it adds absolutely nothing to the article besides bias; just as valid as saying "Segway riders (who often eat granola and hug trees)". Tcp100 06:53, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

New series
The new series has been leaked. There's some controversy about copyright on the segwaychat forums right now, and any info is being taken down, with requests to not repost anything because it violates copyright, and the fact that everyone who knows the new info (such as dealers) is under NDA.

It's up to the Wikipedia masters - add this info or not. Apparently the new models are going to totally rename everytihng and make everything wireless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.129.50.226 (talk • contribs) 06:57, 4 August 2006

Segway & Apple Computers
SEGWAY LCD DISPLAY ---MAC OS FINDER?????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.161.215.34 (talk • contribs) 13:18, 2 September 2006

Rewrite Legal situation section
Some of it's very unclear. Specifically this sentence: In some jurisdictions problems arise due to the lack of a specific legal definition for the Segway HT, hence making it either completely unregulated and usable like in the USA, classing it as a motor vehicle and prohibiting use on the sidewalk., though most of the section just needs to be rephrased. Xgamer4 01:35, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Content dispute
Why are we singling out Europe as the Segway's only nemesis? No mention of opposition from America Walks and the American Council for the Blind? Is there definitive evidence to conclude that "using Segway PTs on sidewalks is legal in all but one US city (San Francisco)"? Wikipedia isn't Americocentric either - what about Canada? There's no mention of Toronto. --The lorax 00:21, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Recalls
Now that there's a second CPSC recall, I created a recall section and moved all the recall info to it. The article already had the first recall; I added today's new recall.

Some anon then removed all recall info. That's been reverted. --John Nagle 01:29, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Disadvantages
I put the disadvantages back on the site. They are obvious and the major problem in order to penetrate larger markets. The Segway has several disadvantages. With 40 kg it is four times heavier than a bike. It costs 10 to 20 times more than a bike but does not go faster or offers the possibility to sit. Its price is as high as a cheap car or motorbike, while the latter comes with a roof and protection against the weather. Thus the Segway finds itself in competition with all three other important transportation means which are much cheaper for many people. This may be a reason for its lack of succes. 84.56.4.35 00:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The anonymous detractor mostly discusses matters that are already mentioned in the article or shown by the pictures. I wouldn't replace my Schwinn with a Segway even for free.  Yes, mailmen and other people like an option to carry an umbrella.  However, his point about weight is valid.  This information is not listed in a table or description of any model. Jim.henderson 14:02, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * A "disadvantages" section might help explain why Segway sells poorly, but perhaps a "Comparison" section would be more widely useful. See for example my section in DSL modem in which that kind are compared to voiceband modems.  This comparison is not so much to disparage or prefer one over the other, as to help readers understand the differences.  The present article may be better served by a "Comparisons" section, with subsections "Compared to other electric scooters," "Compared to bicycle," "Compared to motorbike," and any others that may seem pertinent. Jim.henderson 20:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Speed units
I've added the SI speed conversion from mph, but since it's so seldomly used, I've added km/h as well. I don't know what's the official policy regarding units, but I believe just presenting a US-centered one isn't right since there is an international standard. Anyway, having triple numbers everywhere seems cumbersome - maybe just keep m/s and a link to its article? 200.193.98.181 01:21, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * By the way, the original data was 12.5 mph for PT and 10 mph for HT, and no sources were cited. 200.193.98.181 01:24, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Merge from Segway in popular culture
The segway is such a small topic that there is no need to have a separate article for popular culture references. Riguy 03:03, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

New Segway-Related wikiproject
Hey check out this great new wikiproject!
 * Main page
 * Banner

Geekler A Segway Geek 01:31, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Unnecessary
I feel this article is unnecessary.--Vegen8tor 18:57, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Hilarity
"In new models turning is also done by leaning left and right while in older/discontinued models via a tube that was placed in the anus and oral cavity of a person. After much testing, it was shown that only roughly 10% of the population (male) were 'happy' with this steering mechanism. The anal/oral steering drive was later replaced with a new steering drive that came with much public fanfare as well as scorn from the gay community."

Nobody saw this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by FreshBulletTime (talk • contribs) 22:54, 21 December 2006


 * I seem to remember that was a joke used in South Park when the Segway first launched. They actually showed people using the controls that way... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.146.47.250 (talk) 23:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC).

Walking?
Does anyone know if there has been some research into the use of the segway by obese people? Is the added mass not extra dangerous? Maybe they should walk... (just kidding) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.53.253.50 (talk) 10:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

What with the position of the front handle would the average obese person even fit on the device, let alone have enough room to steer it? 62.232.4.58 (talk) 11:03, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Patent Information
I was wondering if someone knowledgeable of the subject could provide some information regarding patents under the technology section.

Heavy trucks
When the postal workers were polled on whether they preferred Segway to a heavy truck, how many were asked about other choices, such as a light truck? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jim.henderson (talk • contribs) 19:34, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

Excellent. So, it wasn't a large ten ton truck but a small standard Post Office truck. Now the question is, who runs 25 MPH / 40 KmPH? Not average people, as claimed in the preamble, nor Segway, I think. Jim.henderson 16:52, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Bans
Removed New York State ban information. Claims about Segways and especially bicycles proven false with search of NYS law. You may reference the applicable laws regarding bicycles here. Added fact tags for uncited ban claims. Vassyana 10:21, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * See for the New York Segway use ban.  As for bicycles, you are quite right; they are not banned.  Conservatives (including the owners of the site) have been trying to ban sale of Segways, to back up the use ban.  Liberals have been trying to relax or end the use ban.  Neither effort has thus far succeeded, so for now, you can buy a Segway but can only use it on private premises.  Jim.henderson 15:38, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * First, that is a law specific to New York City not to New York State as you restored it. Please provide citation from the State that such devices are illegal off private property in the State if you wish to assert it is so. (Please reference "burden of proof" in the Wikipedia references standards.) Also, I am vastly disappointed in your decision to remove the fact tags and unsourced tag without discussion or reason. I am restoring them. If you wish them to be removed, please discuss it first. This article is filled with factoids and numbers lacking proper citation. Additionally, the Introduction passed by NYC specifically excludes Segways by definition in the passed law. "For the purposes of this section, the term motorized scooter shall not include wheelchairs or other mobility aids designed for use by disabled persons, electric powered devices not capable of exceeding fifteen miles per hour or 'electric personal assistive mobility devices' defined as self-balancing, two non-tandem wheeled devices designed to transport one person by means of an electric propulsion system." As such, I am removing the material I previous removed backed by this clear reference. In the future, please discuss reverts (or at least provide some explanation in the edit summary) and be sure to verify references to public law. Vassyana 01:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Didn't read the link before deleting it, eh? Fine; here's a cut and paste:
 * Segway is gyroscope-stabilized, meaning it remains upright even at a complete stop, Mr. Dailida said.


 * Like most states, New York defines the Segway HT as a motor vehicle, meaning it is automatically banned from sidewalks. But it doesn't fit the state Vehicle & Traffic Law's requirements for vehicles that may operate on public streets and highways, said a spokesman for the Department of Motor Vehicles, Matthew Burns. The device falls into the category of vehicles, such as motorized skateboards, that are legal to drive only on private property, he said.


 * Neither the DMV nor the governor has taken a position on whether state law should accommodate the devices, officials said.


 * Or, to summarize, NYC is the part of NYS in which the company is most interested, but State law is what has to be changed to permit Segway on public streets or sidewalks. To be allowed on sidewalks, it must be removed from the class of motor vehicles.  To be allowed in streets, it must be included either in a class of vehicle that needs no permit (like bicycles) or in a class that can get a permit (such as motorcycles).  As of now, it is effectively banned.  The one bright spot is, politicians and cops aren't much interested in the law in this matter. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jim.henderson (talk • contribs) 02:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC).


 * Please provide a reference from New York State law which provides a definition which includes Segways as prohibited vehicles. As I had mentioned, if you wish to assert this, all I want is a proper reference. I would additionally point out that the reference you provided above is directly about the NYC law I cited above. Also, why did you removed the unreferenced and fact tags without discussion? Vassyana 02:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I did some further research. They do seem to be prohibited for sidewalk use, except in NYC. (NYC is quite literally in many instances akin to another state often with differing legalities than New York State. It is a complicated relationship and the subject of entire law classes unto itself.) Their legally on public roads seems to be a matter of local governance, as the state does not provide for their legality one way or the other. Additionally, they are specifically exempt from classification as motor vehicles if operated by a person with disability. The standard of disability for this section is considerably looser than for example being issued disabled tags from the DMV, requiring only a doctor's note asserting some form of disability or impairment which an electric motorized device would assist or alleviate. I will continue researching the matter until I am satisfied I have found accurate clear information covering the subject at hand. Vassyana 03:33, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Needs citations
Many claims, numbers and "facts" without citations fill this article. References need to be provided and properly cited, as per Wikipedia standards. Please do not remove this tag without discussion and consensus. Vassyana 01:14, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Speed Claims
I don't understand why people keep removing the speed claims on occasion based on running speed. The article is not saying people run that fast, but rather that's how fast a Segway goes. Vassyana 20:28, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Segway LLC programatically limits their machine to a top speed of 12.5 mph. There are many inquiries by Segway owners and the curious on means to defeat this limit.  To date, there does not appear to be a way for consumers to defeat the limit except by replacing the stock wheels with a larger diameter wheel to gain mechanical speed advantage. Toybuilder 8:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Release
Someone commented an entire year ago that this article doesn't convey the media circus that attended the Segway's release, and the subsequent enormous letdown. I know it may seem POV to talk about this, but let's be honest, the unfavorable circumstance release is a significant part of the thing's history, and it can certainly be sourced.- Dmz5 *Edits**Talk* 03:57, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I second this. I just glanced through the article, and it has the distinct reek of having been sanitized, carefully avoiding any mention of the fact that this was pushed as the most amazing thing since bagged rice, the ensuing media cricus, and the total and complete flop that it represented. This thing mopped up vast wodges of money to devlop, and subsequently crashed and burned as a commercial product. This article currently reads like a description of an alternate universe. Here in my universe, the Segway is a borderline by-word for an overhyped product that fails miserably. Dxco 17:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Segway Inspired Vehicles
Should there be mention of Segway inspired designs where the operator is standing up? There is the Q Electric Chariot which appears to be well known; I also personally have seen a much larger similar "standing scooter" at Los Angeles International Airport (LAX). Toybuilder 20:56, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

"True" unveiling
Although the segway got its official (fan-fare) public unveiling in 2001, it was first offered to a public audience, albeit limited, at the closing ceremonies of the 2000 FIRST robotics National Championship at Epcot Center, Walt Disney World, Orlando, FL. Dean Kamen and Woody Flowers appeared on the vehicle at the beginning of the festivities. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.192.175.72 (talk) 06:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC).

Price?
There is currently no mention of pricing of the units in this article. I couldn't find anything on the comany website, but perhaps someone knows of a source which might have this information? Dansiman 05:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I seem to remember reading that the Segway would be sold for around $2500, but a few select units would be available as part of an early release program for $5,000. The Segway has been out for several years now and it's still selling at around $5,000. What happened? Why is it still so expensive? 71.165.163.42 05:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

American English?
Why only American English? Isn't it a homophone in all English accents/dialects (unless one specifically 'Italianifies' ones pronunciation of 'segue')? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.111.220.6 (talk) 00:24, 7 April 2007 (UTC).
 * Surely it's not a homophone at all. A homophone is a word that sounds the same but has a different meaning. Segue and Segway are pronounced differently as far as I can work out, unless it's a silent 'way.' If anything, surely it's a portmanteau of Segue and Way (as in direction, route.) Tony2Times 21:23, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This American pronounced "segue" as "segway" long before Kamen spun his first gyroscope. For me, at least, they're as homophonic as can be. - DavidWBrooks 21:57, 30 September 2007 (UTC)