Talk:Serial Experiments Lain/Archive 1

Untitled
am I insane or di this page use to be longer and go into detail about the themes?

I remeber a mention of Leary's 8 circuit model...


 * The themes section is brand new. The plot section was a heap of POV'd OR (particularly the part with the 8th circuit). It was re-written from scratch. Leary was moved to the Allusions section.

Why did you erase the to-do list?--SidiLemine 12:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

List of Episodes
Shouldn't the list of episode be merged in here, as per WP:TV?--SidiLemine 13:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Alice in Wonderland

 * "What makes you think Alice's name is a reference to Alice in Wonderland?"

Regarding the Alice in Wonderland issue: [http://www.google.com/search?q=serial+lain+alice+wonderland http://www.google.com/search?q=serial+lain+alice+wonderland]

Sub vs. Dub issues
It's probably a good idea to drop the opinionated statements about sub vs. dub debate, as this really isn't a good place to place a debate (This is Wikipedia after all, and probably should be fairly objective...) --Pipian 17:54 20 May 2003 (UTC)


 * Dropping the sub-dub debate NOW. This isn't a message board, it's a wikipedia, besides, you know which is better.
 * Will attempt to summarize, but lain's head is such a vast place... ;-) --Gamera2 05:05, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

ASIN Removal
Well, the ASIN was removed. It was a matter of time I guess. But I was using amazon to help people intrested in the CD tell the bootleg from the geniuine article. Should someone post an image of the real case? Or what? --Gamera2 08:13, 28 August 2005 (UTC)

Confusion
I seem to have confused the bootleg of the offical CD Bootleg with the actual CD bootleg. Whoopsie daisy.

Still, I'd rather leave the refrence to the bootleg on the page, since many other pages pages also make refrences to bootleg copies. Futhermore,I would appriciate it if you'd add the slightly rare copy of the offical track, which happens to be titled Bootleg, to avoid any further confusion. --Gamera2 21:37, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Interesting. I wasn't aware there was a third OST (I own the other two).  I just saw "Bootleg" and "Son May" and just assumed the worst. :)  Wikipedia teaches me something new every day.
 * Anyways, I'd write something about it but, seeing as how I just heard about it, maybe you could add something about the soundtrack? I don't even know what's on it. --RadicalBender 21:45, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * Okay, I made an error and reported the bootleg of bootleg as the official bootleg, but I think the offical bootleg is the one described as 2 discs, one with data. I'll clean that up once I get un-lazy and more information if someone else doesn't do it first. Basically, switch the info. --Gamera2 21:55, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The Nightmare of Fabrication
Er... what's wrong with a link to the manga? It's mentioned in the article. --Eequor 05:10, 24 May 2004 (UTC)


 * That's exactly the reason. There is no need to fill up the article with redundant links. First, there were two links to the same page in the External Links section (which is uncalled for, since one can have access to all the content of the site with a link to its main page only, so there's no need). Now you added another link to the same place, now in the body of the article. That link can already be found on the External Links section, since you edited it again.


 * I don't think there's a reason for so many references to the same site. It's not like people won't see the manga part. A single link in the end of the article should suffice. &ndashMackeriv 13:23, 24 May 2004 (UTC)


 * But this allows readers to find the manga easily, without digging around in Google or the fansite. The first link is unobtrusive and provides access to the manga at the point in the article where it is mentioned: this is for persons who may want see the manga without reading the entire article.  The second link makes it clear that a copy of the manga can be found, especially for persons who don't read the whole article, or who might not have noticed it when it was mentioned in the art books section (I know I missed it the first time).  Not everybody is interested in fansites; they should have a quick alternative to a link they would otherwise be uninterested in.  Similarly, not everyone will be interested in the manga -- but the fansite has insightful commentary and may be of interest to them.
 * There's no reason not to make full use of what hypertext in Wikipedia can do. Every article in Wikipedia makes it easy to find related information when it is mentioned. --Eequor 15:37, 24 May 2004 (UTC)


 * I'd like to raise a different objection about the manga link. I'd rather not have links to scanlations or bootlegs as they are technically copyright violations (not that Wikipedia is doing the copyright violation, but I try to avoid any hint of impropriety if possible).  --R ADICAL B ENDER  &#9733;  15:48, 24 May 2004 (UTC)


 * It's relatively easy to find from Google. Why make extra work for readers by pretending it doesn't exist? --Eequor 16:03, 24 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Why make extra work for readers? You just answered your own question: it's relatively easy to find from Google.  There's no need for us to link to it.  You can get all sorts of things of questionable legality from Google.  Doesn't mean we should be linking to it.  R ADICAL B ENDER  &#9733;  17:12, 24 May 2004 (UTC)


 * My point is, without some mention in the article, the reader may not even know that it can be found from Google. Additionally, the book this vignette appears in is rare and, I suspect, out of print; it would be difficult for people to find this manga offline.  The Nightmare of Fabrication is only a small part of Omnipresence In The Wired; giving easy access to a sample of the artwork is likely to create interest in the rest of the book -- which is not available online.  This is ultimately beneficial.  --Eequor 19:05, 24 May 2004 (UTC)


 * It may be informative to look into exactly how this portion of Omnipresence In The Wired came to be online, and why it is the only part of the book that is online. --Eequor 19:10, 24 May 2004 (UTC)


 * thought experiments lain contains a number of interviews, including a few between the owner of the site and the creators of Lain. The manga can be found on this site; it seems likely that the creators are aware of this.
 * Anyway, as I understand it, fan translations are generally considered permissible in the absence of any intentions by the publisher to produce an official translation. --Eequor 19:46, 24 May 2004 (UTC)


 * What I was saying is that I do not think there's a reason to put THREE links to the same place. When I checked the links in the External Links section, I had the clear feeling of hitting the very same page twice. Tell me, how many situations of this kind have you seen on Wikipedia? It's just uncommon. If you think the link for that manga is so important, I say the best thing to be done is to put it in the end, and ONLY it. There's no need to put two links to the same manga page (doesn't matter where they are located within the article), and you also don't need to add a link to the main page as well, because all the pages in that site are very well visible. It's just the same site.


 * I always say, the beauty of Wikipedia is its versatility. It's great that we can find so many links to other pages while browsing trough articles. Still, the versatility becomes a problem if it's overdone. More content is not always the best choice. Less even if it's redundant. I know you had the best of intentions, but that's something to think about.


 * While on the "copyrights" subject, I don't really think that's an issue. You see links to sites that supposedly violate copyrights here on Wikipedia all the time. In my opinion, that's completely harmless.


 * The things I've said here are just my opinions. I'm not gonna edit that article and remove those links, if anyone's wondering. It's just my point of view on the subject, which yes, is not worth a cent. =P --Mackeriv 21:26, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

Fansites
I'll admit, the links are rather weighted in favor of one fansite. Other sites should probably be linked, if more that have good auxiliary information can be found. --Eequor 15:44, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

Image
People not used to the series might take a little while to understand what that image is about, but I like it anyways. I added a little caption, so that should be good, too. –Mackeriv 17:59, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Mini-Series or Not
Ok, I am a bit confused. What defines this a series as appose to a mini-series? I mean is there a specific length that it should be. I thought a Mini-Series was a show that intentionally written to be under 20 episodes, as appose to the "Lets see how long we can run it for" series. --Thapthim 20:14, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, the thing is, this term is usually not used with anime. I personally have never heard it related to Japanese animation. Maybe that's because short series like Lain are common. A series of thirteen episodes constitute a single season, and many ones are like that. I don't know if Lain should be seen as a "mini-series". –Mackeriv 06:53, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Yeah, you're right, since the Japanese (to my knowledge) do not call it a mini-series (ie no special names for animated series below a certain episode count), it would be wrong to call it a mini-series. --Thapthim 06:34, Jul 30, 2004 (UTC)

"Present day, Present time"
This is somewhat of a nitpick, but I always thought the "Present day, Present time, hahahahaha" part of the episode intros was not supposed to imply the series was set in the present, but was a mocking of the concept of linear, uniform time. It's up to interpretation, but I've always thought Lain was set in the near future, since it displayed a level of technological penetration that wasn't present in Japan when Lain was first broadcast (1997). Recall the presence of an overarching traffic planning network in the series, which i don't be; also, the hand-held devices may be similar to ones that are widespread currently, but were not back in 1997. --Pyrop 04:54, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)


 * I admit that quote is not a very good indication of time. However, I see no point of claiming the story is set in the future. If there's no reliable indication of time, that should stay out of the article. – Kaonashi 12:03, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hand held devices
The Hand held devices were based off the Apple Newton. There is a good site that explains the apple references in Lain http://www.cjas.org/~leng/apple-lain.htm. --Anon

Languages

 * While the article is talking about the LainOS, what language is it written in? Instinctively, I wanted to say simply Common Lisp, but I'm not so sure. When we see Lain programming in class, it is obviously a Lisp. Pausing and examining my copy, I took a good look at the code (since I'm an amateur Lisp programmer meself), and the code is meaningful- but it apparently is for a Symbolics Lisp machine (using the Genera OS) judging from some of the non-standard functions being used which is odd if, as the previous section asserts, the devices are based off the apple newton, and doubly odd since I would have thought that the advanced languages used in Japan were generally Prolog dialects (because of the Fifth Generation project).
 * My certainty was further shaken when I saw all of the Knights of the Lambda Calculus references and the article here on Wikipedia, which would indicate that it is not even Common Lisp, but Scheme (I do not know if Scheme was ever ported to Genera). Can anyone clear this up? --maru (talk) contribs 01:43, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Joan of Arc in art
I'd like to invite editors who know this series to add a summary to our list. Video games and anime are the final section on the page. Regards, Durova 21:28, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. Not sure if appropriate thought.--SidiLemine 11:33, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Gargoyle
The goggled man in layer 07 strikes me as extremely similar to (though I won't dare assume a causal relationship) the gargoyles of Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash - from the pack to the infrared goggles and infornographical tendencies. -- Ben

Title translation
Hi! We, on Russian Wikipedia, currently having a discussion about how this anime's title should be translated. Some think "Serial Experiments Lain" should be considered "Serial Experiments: Lain", i.e. "Serial Experiments" and "Lain" have no connection between them. Another opinion is that the title states for "Lain's Serial Experiments" or just "Lain's Experiments", where both parts of the title are connected. Some also think "Serial Experiments Lain" is the same as "Experimental Serial (Show): Lain". Results of our conversation will also be used in discussion with our local anime publisher, who are going to name the localized version of "Lain" somehow like "Lain's Experiments", which, as for me, is incorrect translation. So, please, as the language's native speakers, explain to us as precisely as you can, which is right and which is wrong, and how the title "Serial Experiments Lain" should be (or - "can be", if there's uncertainty) understood. -- --85.140.1.78 15:21, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Given that this is a translation from a cryptic Japanese title of a cryptic Japanese anime, I suspect the ambiguity is intentional. I've always inclined towards the serial experiments being successive versions of Lain. --maru (talk) contribs 00:31, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Refer to the section titled Publications and other media; it elucidates the meaning of the title. Compare: "Serial Experiments Lain", "Visual Experiments Lain", "Scenario Experiments Lain", etc. -- 24.225.247.157 02:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, everybody is wrong. It is, "Serial Experiments: lain" (If you really want to be critical). That's what I typed into the search but it came up without any results. I'm strongly disappointed. (I'll change this) Colonel Marksman 13:15, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

In this translation case you should use colon - "Lain's experiments" would be plain wrong, as it's rather experiments on Lain. With colon it would mirror the English meaning, which is the original one. CP/Mcomm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 21:26, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Explaination of the show
In the Plot section of the article... I see a lot of things in there... but no references to back it up, and it looks like people are trying to "explain" the series. Although a lot of the information looks credible, it's all "personally, some people think" in disguise. Not even the creators of the script knew exactly what they were doing.

In fact, the fifth episode was written when Konata was running a high fever. As the show progressed in creation, original ideas for the explainations vanished. Serial Experiments: lain, was indeed, created for the curious and confused person who become infornographers to a chain of answers that don't exist. Interviews with the creators have come up with them basically concluding, "I don't know what you're talking about," or they will play with questions.

I think this article needs a little revising with a separate section of the article for "possible conclusions", where fansites come in handy. Right now, I'm just going to add more and better references. Colonel Marksman 13:37, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I correct myself.... THERE ARE NO REFERNECES!!!!!


 * Very well put. It should be mentioned that the whole series deals (rather radically) with the very definition of reality, and hoaxes at a large scale, my view is that the plot summary should only provide a basis, ie a definition of what the wired has become at the beginning of the series (and possibly protocol 7), and the "blur" resulting. Everything else should then be moved to the "characters" part (explaining the percieved actions & motivations of all protagonists) and the "themes" part (explaining everything else from Eiri's being alive to the use of technology to the great ball of fire on the school roof), and possibly a "theories" part as mentionned above, to keep the two previous ones "clean". If there is no objection by tomorrow I will go on and replace the current plut summary with a much more concise one and begin the two mentionned sections. --SidiLemine 13:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, I've gone ahead and replaced it. It still lacks lots of references, but at least I think now it sticks to the basics. Please delete anything you feel as interpretation. I'll get a "themes" section started. On the menu: Loneliness, Communication & Power, God (Faith & Religion), (Consensual) Reality. Any ideas?--SidiLemine 15:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

anon note about "getting the plot"
//Don't believe that article just above, the autor didn't get the series plot quite well, i will edit it when my finals are over.

Eiri is alive because the events were erased from the world, that is the power of Lain, and also, he did not create Lain, Lain always existed in the wired world which is of course part of the real world, giving lain the powers of the omniprescence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.154.201.167 (talk • contribs).


 * This was on the article itself, so I moved it here. -- Ned Scott 05:03, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Is Lain the Pure Ego?
Hey, didn' t someone noticed any similarities between Lain and the concept of Pure Ego of Johann Gottlieb Fichte? Indeed, in my never enough humble opinion I' m quite sure it' s almost the same metaphysic concept of the Fichte' s idealism one. What do you think about? (strange I' m the first one to think about this).
 * Perhaps because this discussion is about the article itself, not the topic. We can speculate a great deal of stuff about Lain, but what the truth is, is up to the viewers. It's common in the Japanese culture to have endings this way, and I'm sure they like watching Americans' reaction to their series. Colonel Marksman 04:23, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm practically ignorant of the Pure Ego subject, but if you think Lain is a good illustration of it, you could mention it on the Pure Ego article. However, I think Lain could be way too many things to list thme all, not to mention the OR problem that ensues.--SidiLemine 16:19, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

PLOT SUMMARY RE-WRITE
CAN SOMEBODY PLEASE ERASE AND REWRITE THE PLOT SUMMARY AT THE BEGINNING OF THE PAGE? I realize that whoever wrote it put a lot of effort into this summary, but I feel that it is still grossly inappropriate. Lain is a masterpiece of anime because it makes the viewer think about what is really going on in each scene. There are countless complex storylines and events with multiple potential interpretations. But instead of leaving the story open ended, as I'm pretty sure that the series producers and writers intended it, somebody has summarized the plot in a way that leaves nothing to the imagination - instead, it is just one viewer's interpretation of the plot. Worst of all, this could totally ruin it for somebody who has never seen the anime. Even though it is allegedly protected by spoiler warnings, I still strongly feel that the entire summary should be replaced with one much more open-ended. If nobody else feels like re-writing one, I suggest using this (spoiler-free) promotional summary from the website of the domestic distributor of the series on DVD:

We're all connected… There is the world around us, a world of people, tactile sensation, and culture. There is the wired world, inside the computer, of images, personalities, virtual experiences, and a culture all of its own. The day after a classmate commits suicide, Lain, a shy thirteen year-old girl, discovers how closely the two worlds are linked when she receives an e-mail from the dead girl: "I just abandoned my body. I still live here...” Has the line between the real world and the wired world begun to blur?  Before long, Lain is pulled into the world of the Wired, where she gradually learns that nothing is what it seems to be... not even Lain herself.

If copyright issues make it impossible to reproduce this, I understand. But please, this problem must be corrected. And soon. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.86.248.149 (talk • contribs).


 * If you want to re-write it, then re-write it. I don't see anything really wrong with the way it's written now. This is an article for the anime, not an advertisement for it.  We're not trying to "sell" it to anyone or promote it. -- Ned Scott 04:58, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. This is an encyclopedic reference article, not a (spoiler-free) DVD blurb. For someone who has no wish to watch SE:l, and needs a quick run down about the plot... That (spoiler-free) DVD ad copy isn't going to do them much good. Pyrogen 06:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Very little wrong with the introduction, I am more ill at ease with the "plot summary" part. Way too much questionable interpretation out there. --SidiLemine 13:41, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Edited a bit here and there. Any better?--SidiLemine 13:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Themes
I'm starting a themes section, and xould like advice as to minor themes (I've got UFOs, Ghosts and instant personnalities à la Matrix to expand; see any other? The collective unconscious maybe?--SidiLemine 13:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd suggest not to include minor themes. SE Lain contains a vast number of references for a film (let alone anime), and mentioning them all will just clutter the article. It's probably better to focus on the collective unconscious, as the main (or one of the main) theme. CP/Mcomm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 13:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. The idea was not so much to mention all references in SE:L, but to explore a few ott takes. Like when the off voice says about UFOs "as the story of the Roswell crash propagated, rumors became facts, and myths became reality". But this is probably OR anyway. --SidiLemine 15:54, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, I've stuck to the major themes. But I still think we will need more than a trivia section to fit all the rest. (there's plenty of explanations from interviews, and plenty of theories from fansites.) How about "Versatility"?--SidiLemine 10:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure I get it all... what exactly is "Versatility", and what sections do you mean?
 * For minor themes and references, I think the best way is to provide only a short descriptions with a link to the corresponding article. There is no need to worry much about spoilers, since it's far more about links to real-world details and expressed ideas than just the plotline. Trivia sections are not recommended (for instance, no article with trivia has a chance to pass FA and probably GA as well), and specifically in case of Lain it is not trivia, but references which the story and idea is built upon. Themes section would be a better place, with description in prose. That's what I can suggest basing on general criteria for similar works. CP/Mcomm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 22:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * OK. So say I found a source that talks about the way the Xanadu idea is used in Lain. Would you advise I expand the entry in the "Allusions" section, so as to have (in the end) every entry with a few lines accompanying it? When you say "a short description", do you mean of the subject, or the way it is used in Lain? About the trivia, I agree. It will have to find a place elsewhere or bugger off. I already started deleting stuff from there (I have a feeling it was unaccurate, and it was unsourced.)--SidiLemine 10:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

SE:L?
SE:L seems to have very rare usage. None of the first 50 google hits on SE:L gives the subject, even with excluding all frequent associated terms. I've replaced it all for SE Lain, which seems more accepted. CP/Mcomm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 02:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Perfectly right. In the meantime I stumbled upon a guideline somewhere that advised to avoid abbreviations and prefer simplifications (still in italic), so I replaced SE L by Lain.--SidiLemine 10:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Allusions
I fail to see any direct allusions to Symbolics, BeOS, Perl, Joan of Arc, Illuminati, Fractals, and Douglas Engelbart in the anime, so I deleted them. Mind you, these are all great subjects and I'd love to expand on the place they occuppy in Lain, but at the moment I can't see anything. Please advise if insight available.--SidiLemine 10:32, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Englebart is mentioned in the same areas dealing with Vannevar Bush, and Symbolics comes in via the Lisp code and machines Lain uses. --maru  (talk)  contribs 14:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


 * OK for Englebart, althought I'll have to re-watch to know if he is actually named in a sentence or if his name just pops up during the MJ12 bit. But Symbolics doesn't pass the test. I mean, it's enough to have an entry on LISP, and the machines can be just from anything. --SidiLemine 16:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It is not necessary to have a whole bullet point on Symbolics, I agree, but it costs little to nothing to append an "and Symbolics" to the bullet point on Lisp. --maru  (talk)  contribs 18:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I was going to say "well, why not?"; but then again, why? I can understand that it would make Symbolics enthusiasts happy, but is there even a direct hint at it (that is not Lisp) in Lain? If not, I find it a bit hard. We might end up putting in the guy that developped Lisp, and the list of every single paper John C Lilly wrote.--SidiLemine 10:18, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * A direct hint besides the source code Lain edits in class and the fact that she had to've been using a Symbolics OS... no, off-hand I can't actually remember anything. Only watched the series once, I'm afraid. --maru  (talk)  contribs 16:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * No, I can't remember any time either. Couldn't find a clue around the web, so I'll leave it at that for now. I'll just begin to format the allusions (group all the mad scientists under a "influences of the wired" dot, etc...)--SidiLemine 10:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I've found the BeOS reference, at the end of each episode, the coloured Be (continued).


 * Does anyone know if "As We May Think" is cited in the anime? It seems possible, but I can only remember them talking about Memex at that moment.--SidiLemine 11:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I couldn't find direct reference to Neural networks or simulated reality, so I deleted them. Same with Alice in Wonderland. Also, As there is a Printf (oh, I deleted that also), one can't say Lisp has any special role to play in the series, no more than C. For what we know, it might be a mutant hybrid of the two.--SidiLemine 18:59, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Help (Please)!!

 * I need help with the allusions. Most of what's left by now is crystal-clear, so I almost find it hard to say it's OR. However, if they stay unsourced as they are, this article will never acheive GA status, and that's something I'd like to see ;)... So the question is: does anyone have any citation concerning the allusions? Or any "trick" that may allow us to keep them unsourced? Any help very appreciated.--SidiLemine 15:27, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Playstation Game
This article definitely needs a section on the PSX game. Does anyone have any material about this?--SidiLemine 16:27, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Someone posted around 18minutes worth of footage from the PSX game on YouTube. You could watch that and do a quick summary, or ask the guy who submitted it if he'd like to help. EDIT: Or, perhaps, try hereKaldeaOrchard 10:23, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually I've already read a little bit about it, but always from fansites (hard to make that a good reference.) And I'm not sure if watching the footage wouldn't be original research. I'm afraid I look a bit paranoid, but right now the anime project has only 4 good articles, and I don't think that's right. I think if there was more of it, it'd be easier to have a model to make other good anime articles, an so on. But anyway, once again, bravo. Neat piece of data.--SidiLemine 13:19, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Split Personalities
Lain's alter ego(s) should have their own section on the "Characters" list.
 * Should they? I never saw that done.... It could be worth a shot if we're able to know which is which, and to define them clearly.... Any suggestions?--SidiLemine 09:10, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, you could either put a new section for 'Lain of the Wired' or note in Lain's profile that she has an opposite, maybe an 'Evil Twin' on the Wired.--KaldeaOrchard 10:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, I think I remember there was "normal' Lain, "Evil" (or whatever) Lain of the Wired, and "Childish" Lain; but are they actually different characters, and not different personnalities/emanations of "the" Lain? To me, Lain is an artifact that "emits" thoughts in boh worlds, sometimes in the form of ghosts, sometimes in the form of full-flesh bodies (eg Lain Iwakura). I'm not saying that's THE interpretation of the series, but to create different character entries would seem borderline OR to me. that being said, I don't mind if there's a consensus or sources to back it.

I found this on Google, it has a brief description of the different Lains and pictures explaining them.Check hereKaldeaOrchard 06:42, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow! This is great material! (I'm such a lousy googler...) But where did they get that from? Is this in the Omnipresence book? It looks a bit like fanart (excellent, but still) to me... Plus I'm not sure about the part with the Knights creating the "Lain in the Wired".... But the image would still be of great use.--SidiLemine 10:08, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, 'Real' Lain and 'Digital' Lain are the same person. Somewhere in the series it was mentioned that the 'Wired' Lain was indeed created by the Knights, to try and gain support via her. Not 100% certain on that fact, I'll try and re-watch the series on the weekends.

Alice / Arisu
I've seen the series in OV, subbed in English. The sub said Alice. The producers say Alice. "Arisu" is the japanese pronounciation (rhaa, never knew how to spelle that) for Alice. Alice's character comes from "Alice in cyberland", a clear allusion to Alice in wonderland, with no Arisu whatsoever. Is there a reason why her name would be spelt Arisu? I'd like to know before I revert the edit by KaldeaOrchard, as it's not the first time this happens.--SidiLemine 13:52, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

On the dubbed version I have, the English subtitles spell her name 'Arisu'. I figured this should be noted, incase someone learns her by Arisu and thinks there is another. KaldeaOrchard 06:20, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * That makes sense... Is that the oficial DVD sub from Pioneer? In that case, we need it indeed. It's just that "Alice Mizuki" gets 129.000 entries in Google, and "Arisu Mizuki" only 9500, so I figured it was just a fansub different from the one I had....--SidiLemine 09:35, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * While I can't find anything on Geneon's site, other sites that sell their dubs and give credits, such as Amazon, use "Arisu" Fcberry 17:39, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... Good question. I got mine from E-Bay, but there appears to be another version (Judging by the cover). Mine has a picture of Lain standing with her hand on her forehead, with the words 'Serial Experiment Lain' to the left side, with a brownish background. The other one has her siting down, staring straight at the viewer and the title is in the center, with a purplish background. I assume one is official and one isn't but I have no idea. Alternate theory, US and Aus have different covers? KaldeaOrchard 06:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Possible... I think mine was made from an european, but I'm not even sure if there is such a version. It seems like you've got the ones at the "list of episodes", and I can't say I've seen different covers. Alright, I say we keep both names in the character section until we know better.--SidiLemine 09:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I ordered the North American separate DVD releases (Geneon Pioneer Signature Series, 12144, 12206, 12240 and 12241; I believe there is also a DVD box release). Their subtitles use ”Arisu” and the ending cast credits say, ”Arisu Mizuki”. The character’s own HandiNAVI mail menu in layer 13, scene 20 (”Reset”) says, ”to Alice”. – According to my unchecked information, there has been no European release. – Jippe 00:01, 4 February 2007 (UTC); comment expanded 06:55, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * To me the fact that the HandiNAVI says "Alice" (and the fact that the character comes from a work called "Alice in Cyberland", also) is proof enough that this character's name is Alice. Arisu is just stupid clueless direct romanisation without context, and I despise it totally. However, since it is in the english credits, I support the "Alice/Arisu" (both stated once in the characters section) solution.--SidiLemine 17:05, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I pretty much share your opinion. If we regard SEL simply a modern fairy tale, there is no reason to write “Arisu” in Latin letters.
 * But you can think about it another way, too. If SEL represents a reality close to ours, “Arisu” could appear in official contexts. Let us imagine that real-life Japanese parents name their daughter after Carroll’s Alice. I believe the Japanese officials then record the child’s name in katakana, “a-ri-su”. When the girl grows older and applies for a passport to travel overseas, will the text romanized for international purposes say, “Arisu Mizuki” or “Alice Mizuki”?
 * What makes me philosophize about this are Alice/Arisu’s words in layer 13, scene 20 (“‘Pleased to Meet You’”; quoting the English subtitles): “I’m Arisu. Strange name, huh? I’m kind of embarrassed about it.” The character is aware that her name is unusual (fairy-tale-like?) in the context of the reality surrounding herself.
 * Yeah, let this be the biggest problem in our lives! =D Jippe 07:17, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I suggest we set up a Mizuki WikiProject to deal with this question, and any other that might arise, once and for all ;p --SidiLemine 09:34, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Peer Review
I'm asking for a peer review on this article. Please help as you can.--SidiLemine 12:24, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Colon Controversy
Someone on the peer review page wondered if it was Experiments: Lain or Experiments Lain. My DVD says it uses the colon, is it different on anyone elses? Just to clear that matter up. The exact words were... Additional comment Lack of consistancy with the show's name. Is it Serial Experiments Lain or Serial Experiments: Lain (with colon)? --SeizureDog 20:13, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

KaldeaOrchard 08:51, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure it's with colon; But it's hard to back. IMDB uses it; ANN doesn't. Should we change the article title, with a redirect?--SidiLemine 10:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds logical. Does the PSX game have one?KaldeaOrchard 12:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Official Japanese title from official site does not have colon. http://www.geneon-ent.co.jp/rondorobe/anime/lain/data.html Playstation version at hand does not have colon. (Although it uses two sizes of font...  serial experiments lain) But since this is an en.wikipedia.org article, I suppose we'll have to see about the release for English-spoken countries. --Fukumoto 12:33, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The logo and the title are two different things. The idea would be to find an official text version of the title. --SidiLemine 10:26, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Not sure which you mean, but they're in text, as far as I can tell.  --Fukumoto 13:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I meant in plain text (or HTML, or else), as opposed to an image file.


 * I'm not sure what you are meaning. Have you seen the page I referenced above?  Or you mean the CD back title?  --Fukumoto 16:11, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


 * OMG you're right! There is no colon! All these years, I've been walking in the shadows! Ok, gotta clean that article up. --SidiLemine 10:24, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * There's also another thing you probably never noticed. None of the words in the title are even capitalized. In that sense, several are wrong, but if you REALLY want to stick with what is English grammatically correct, then keep it in caps.
 * I know we're supposed to stick with English here, but in reality, the Japanese name is "Rein".
 * As for the colon, its debatable, but if its going to be one of controversy, we could just take a vote on it. Colonel Marksman 21:19, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * In reality, the Japanese name is not "Rein", but is written in Japanese; "Rein" is simply Engrish pronounciation. BTW, in the anime I noticed it still sounded more like "Lain" than anything else; also, the screens clearly show the correct name. CP/Mcomm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 21:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Our current translation policy is to take loan words used in Japanese and write them as they would be in English. --SeizureDog 22:03, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Could you show me these guidelines? And I'm still confused over which we use. Lain or Rein? Another reason being is elsewhere, although the name "Jean" shows up all over the manga and anime dubbed version, the actual Japanese translation AND the English subed version shows "John". Which do we use again? Colonel Marksman 00:14, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Lain modeled from female heroes?
I removed this from Eiri Masami's section in "characters". Can someone please advise if it is sourceable?

HE claims to have created Lain's ego from the legend of all female heroes in the wired.

--SidiLemine 13:57, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Good Article Candidate
This article has been put up for GAC. --SidiLemine 09:44, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

ON HOLD
Viewing this as a "virgin" otaku getting info on a new series (and skipping most of the spoileriffic parts), i'm uncomfortable in a few areas:

--293.xx.xxx.xx 11:23, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * No Spoiler-free Synopsis. The Plot section seems to just recklessly dive into the story and not give a general overview of the series.
 * Research feels like it might be skirting No original research.
 * I'm getting a feeling that Themes might need some spoiler tags.
 * Playstation Game needs to deal with the citation needed tag.

Response: --SidiLemine 12:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Does there have to be a spoiler-free synopsys? Where would it fit? Is it OK to have a "synopsys" section, and then the plot section? If so I'll do one. This was the intention behind the first two paragraphs of the plot, before I was advised to move them in the spoiler tags.
 * You're probably right on the "Research" part. I was still looking for a way to source all that, but it may well have to go.
 * I'll see if I can rewrite the Themes in a non-spoiler way. The only spoiler I see is in a footnote (ep 6). Does that count?
 * Yup, finding citations (or any kind of reliable material) for this game is a real pain. If anyone ever saw an official review, please say so or stop contributing forever.


 * Sidi: I don't have time to really do much, but I remember first seeing a fair bit of what has been marked as OR in the essays linked from here, FWIW. --Gwern (contribs) 17:01, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Suggestions:
 * Try and expand the lead abit, as a suggested place to put the basic synopsis. See FLCL for an example. Like I said, if i'm viewing this article for the first time, I don't really want to find out "...turns into a catgirl as soon as she is kissed in XXX spot" when it should be "Oh, Character A likes Character B, and one turns into a catgirl as soon as she is kissed."
 * Still need spoiler tags regardless.
 * Since it says that the game never got the ratings mark, why not modify the pic to show both the frotn and back covers of the game? You then satisfy the verifiability clause.--293.xx.xxx.xx 19:08, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, now I see. THanks for the example, I'll get to it right away. Seems quite doable. Will probably look like the back of the DVD (see ). Done. Ok now?--SidiLemine 15:16, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I removed the spoiler part from the themes. (If you still see some, please point!)
 * The classification in question was about the genre of the game. I clarified that in the text. I got to every single game-rating organisation website without finding a single reference.
 * I'm still struggling with the research part. I clearly don't want OR (that's the last thing an article on Lain needs), but this is a grat part of the show's appeal, structure, and particularity, so it'd be a shame to just flush it all out without putting in a good fight. Added Comment Only unsourced material there now is Cordwainer Smith, Marcel Proust, ELF Band, and Shumann Resonnance. Any idea on how to keep that?--SidiLemine 15:16, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

--SidiLemine 13:18, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know why people keep fingering the Cordwainer Smith entry as OR - what do they want, a screenshot of the episode? (But then the licensing nazi would be unhappy at the fair use...) --Gwern (contribs) 15:25, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it's not so much the fact that is questioned, as the author's intentions. That's the whole thing with trivia - and fiction in general: David Lynch keeps saying how delighted he is at all the intentions people say he has with every new movie, that he wasn't aware of. If you can put cordwainer smith just like that, you don't have to worry about proust; that's fine, but given what Lain is made of, that's an open invitation to every single personnal opinion about it. Mind it, I love a good talk about Lain, but the web is already so full of it, and I see this article as a good occasion to separate what's disputable from what's not. That being said, I'm still unconfortable at having to find a source to confirm that most cats have four legs. Does anyone know what's the policy on this?--SidiLemine 16:06, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

As I removed Schuman, ELF and Karl HausHofer, and sourced Proust and Cordwainer Smith, everything is now sourced in the Research section. It really would have broken my heart to do without that one. --SidiLemine 17:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * : ( Couldn't you have sourced that section without removing so much of the interesting stuff? --Gwern (contribs) 18:28, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I know!! Isn't it depressing? But I did manage to hide Shuman in the plot, and wikified Karl in the Characters ;).... So people will have to search! I thought it'd be appropriate for an article on lain. But anyway, I am really keen on getting this articl through GA, and at this point I think it was necessary. I'll get back to the old "allusions/see also" asap to make a "to-source" list. Do you remember the most proeminent, so I can start googling for references? I'll start rummaging through the links you gave above to add philosophical impulse (Excellent but incredibly asconse article on Buffy, Lain and Star Wars... Gave me the hell of a headache last time I tried to read it.) Come to think of it, it's not impossible anymore to try and get this one to FA.--SidiLemine 18:52, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Personally, I'd say heading for FA is a noble goal but I've seen quite a few articles that actually suffered under the lash of FAC... which works well for traditional staples of encyclopedias, but for cultural items, it is just horrible and very much deletionist. So don't take it too seriously. If you want an FA, work on nonfiction articles, I guess I am saying. --Gwern (contribs) 20:02, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * FA? It's not ready, not even nearly ready, I'd say... It would be hard. But not impossible. Number of FA is very limited, as they all need to "get their day", so criteria go up rapidly. However, some fiction-related articles, sometimes even in-fiction details (some pokemon) made their way. For now GA would be good, and, actually, it would be the "nominal" state considering subject's importance. Going further would require surpassing general FA standarts. CP/Mcomm |Wikipedia Neutrality Project| 21:10, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed CP/M. My sentence was "not impossible anymore to try".... But yeah, maybe that would be overestimating the subject's importance... For now GA would be good. --SidiLemine 08:59, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it's gotten to the point of being a GA nod. Any other objections?--293.xx.xxx.xx 21:31, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I have no objections, but I think the following needs discussing/fixing up:
 * The original idea is written by Chiaki J. Konaka What does that mean exactly? Rewrite. Done. Replaced by "scenario".
 * The story revolves about Lain Iwakura ah the old revolving story. Better prose needed. Did this myself.
 * Lain's quiet, lonely life takes a sharp turn when I think this could use some better prose too. Done. Better now?
 * From there, Lain will begin a quest that will take her ever deeper into the network, and into herself Why is this part of the paragraph in present tense when the rest of the paragraph is in past tense? Done
 * The plot relies heavily on philosophical subjects, such as Reality, Identity, and Communication. This sentence is very good and maybe should be mentioned earlier in the lead. Done
 * Most events on screen can be considered as Would this read better as "Many events on screen can be considered as" because it does not imply a countable number? Done. I don't think "many" would solve the problem, as it's still as subjective. I replaced by "Most, if not all" to imply that the only reason we don't say "all" is out of safety.
 * so even off voices and speeches cannot be trusted to give actual information. I don't understand what this sentence means. I'm not sure if "Off voices" is a proper word in english (taken from "voix off" in french). I mean when you hear a voice giving info without knowing who speaks. I hate this sentence too, so any rewording is very welcome.
 * episodes are named layers No they aren't, not according to the List of episodes section! Done. Well spotted :)
 * The series see him try to get her to do it through a number of.. This is an understandable sentence but I still think it could be written more clearly. Done. Replaced "get her to do this" by "convince her".

I'd like to see at least some comments on those points before this article goes to GA status. Sorry I didn't participate in the peer review but I missed it. --Squilibob 10:30, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Please see answers above in bold. I still need help with the "speeches" part (7th point), so if anyone could take care of that, I'd really love it. --SidiLemine 11:30, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Wow well done. And done so quickly too. Almost too quickly, like you were always watching... like... you're in the Wired. But seriously, good job. The article reads a lot better now. Bring on the GA assessment. --Squilibob 11:41, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Dokko ni datte, hitowa tsunagatte iru no yo. Cheers, it's a pleasure. I guess I might want to take a short wikibreak now, see if I can still keep my job.... It's been a long and funny month bringing this article from here (I still keep a copy of that plot summary, it might be useful to post somewhere as a negative example). There is still the list of episodes to look after, but that's another story. Loads of thanks to everyone who helped, I didn't think I could trust a community as much as I trust wikipedia now (well, the wikiproject anime and manga, anyway!!)--SidiLemine 12:30, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

thank you!
A huge gigantic thank you to whoever wrote this article. The plot summary is alot better than it used to be. dposse 19:41, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Close this world, Open the nExt
In the section Apple computers in Serial Experiments Lain, the article states:
 * "Close this world, Open the nExt" is the slogan for the Serial Experiments Lain Playstation video game.

If my memory serves, the phrase is not specific to video game version. It is used in the background of sponsor credits in the anime series. (I can't confirm myself since I don't have DVD/Video of the anime.)  --Fukumoto 17:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Me neither T_T. But I saw it on the game, so I figured it must have been from there mostly. Any evidence of the opposite welcome.--SidiLemine 17:28, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * This was used as a tagline on the Madman dvd cover, have not noticed it inside the show Swales 04:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Schizophrenia and dissociative identity disorder.
I just visited this article for the first time in a while... I fixed a few minor spelling errors and edited the note about schizophrenia, since it didn't seem to flow well. Also, someone added this note to the article under Themes: "Note: Schizophrenia and Dissociative Identity Disorder/Multiple Personality Disorder are two completely different things. Might want to fix that, yeah?" Comments like these belong in the Talk Page, not the article, so... I moved it to the Talk Page and removed it from the article. Whoever posted this has a point, though. Lain definitely deals with schizophrenia, but it also deals with dissociative identity disorder, and the two are distinctly separate. We should develop that... maybe a specific section in themes about mental illness? A few citations for that topic might be nice as well... TheInvisMan 21:59, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, even more if you consider that the game was centered around her therapy sessions... Unfortunately (almost) nobody ever played it. I'll remove the schizophrenia part, as it is unsourced as it is:

"The intentional manner in which reality is distorted throughout the series could be seen as a parallel to schizophrenia." True, but POV and OR. --SidiLemine 09:56, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect placement of Footnotes?
In several sections, e.g., the Influences-Writing-Research, the footnotes are placed in the middle of sentences, immediately after the clauses they back up. I understand that this runs counter to the style guidelines, which specify that footnotes should come at the end of a sentence or at the end of a paragraph. Should the footnotes be moved? Patiwat 06:18, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, footnotes says "Place a ref tag at the end of the term, phrase, sentence, or paragraph to which the note refers". So I guess it's OK. Thanks for tagging the fans thing as OR.--SidiLemine 10:27, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clarifying that. Despite what footnotes says, lots of articles put the footnotes at the end of the paragraph or at the end of the sentence.  GOod to see what the policy says.  Patiwat 21:59, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * And that's what I used to do before the policy was pointed out to me while I was working on theis article. That's why you can see the same paragraph sourced three or four times with the same ref. Seemed totally awkward at first, but it makes sense, unless your whole paragraph is one big citation.--SidiLemine 16:13, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Merger proposal

 * Support: The The Wired article is not notable enough to warrant a separate page and should be merged into this one. The trivia section should also be removed.  David Bailey (talk) 17:18, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Support as redirect. Nothing really to merge. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 17:28, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Support: as redirect, but only if this page is not drastically improved soon. Although I don't know the template for incorrect style, this article is almost entirely in-universe and would fit some sort of fanwiki far better than Wikipedia. DotKuro (talk) 16:18, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Support: i have performed the redirect, archiving proposal. Mattlafy (talk) 01:41, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Reception: Weird, Sex and Violence
The article claims that multiple English reviews have called Serial Experiments Lain weird "due mostly to its almost total absence of sexual and violent content". A glance at the references shows no sign of this being the reason for the series being called weird. My impression is that the themes and animation are what is being called weird. The only reference to sexual and violent content i could find in the reviews was a mention of age appropriateness. --Mattlafy (talk) 08:10, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I have removed statement about sexual and violent content and replaced it with a more accurate description of the reviews. Mattlafy (talk) 20:39, 28 January 2010 (UTC)