Talk:Shankill Butchers

NPOV
It is always a problem to have a balanced article when dealing with a recent conflict, after all the points made by the writer of British Killing Machine can all be easily refuted with a contra explanation, e.g state forces withdrew from republican areas at night due to the terror campaign waged against them. Similarly the claim that British forces enabled the work of the Butchers is rather negated by the claim that the state had abandoned these areas.

This article does, however, use language that it deliberately negative, the common tactic used to denigrate combatants one disaproves of, whilst the description of the IRA and republicans is deliberatly neutral, thus encouraging the reader to tacitly sympathise with their position (see example below).

There are no real winners in a war, especially in a civil war and even more so when the war is conducted by criminal gangs. Neither sides defenders have a gr`eat deal to commend them, but neither does either side have any excuse for what is inexcusable, starting an entirely pointless conflict and carrying on with it despite the pointlessness becoming more and more obvious as EU expansion has rendered individual states far less important than they once were. Fetu&#39;s dad (talk) 01:59, 21 December 2007 (UTC) ''Please rewrite the following article in accordance with our NPOV guidelines. --Ed Poor 16:44 Nov 26, 2002 (UTC)''

The Shankill Butchers were a group of loyalists who abducted innocent Catholics, tortured them, and then mutilated them and let them bleed to death. The group were all members of the UVF. They were led by Lenny Murphy, a person who in his youth was beaten for having a Catholic-sounding last name, and soon turned from a bully himself, to a petty criminal, to a Serial killer. The other people in the Butchers were William Moore, Robert "Basher" Bates, "Big Sam" McAllister and others. Lenny Murphy was killed in 1982 by the IRA after more than 30 murders. It should be noted that Murphy also killed some Protestants too. However, he possessed a hatred of Catholics, shown in how he cruised Catholic areas to find victims.

References

"The Shankill Butchers" by Martin Dillon.

The article makes these guys sound like a bunch of thugs. I appreciate the rewrite, and my only worry is the reliance on a single source. I mean, did anyone actually witness the skinning or hear the taunts? --Cousin Eddie

It's well documented in the book: in the second killing a women heard someone screaming "kill me", and so on, the bodies were found, it was done in front of a club at times, they confessed the murders and how they were done, and so on and so forth.


 * How do you know the book is correct? how do you know a woman really heard this, etc, and it wasn't simply a detail added by the author?  if the book is the *only* source, it has to be looked on with reserve.  The publisher, if not the author, is trying to make money from writing the book; it is in their interest to sensationalise.  Multiple sources are essential.  Toby Douglass (talk) 16:26, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Lenny Murphy
I went to School (Boys Model) with Lenny Murphy. He was a violent thug throughout his time and his aggression had nothing to do with his name.He carried a knife then and wasn't afraid to use it.

Murphy is not an uncommon Protestant name. Murphy was a psychopath and his murder of a young Protestant in front of an audience is as cold and as calculated as Sadam's 'cleansing' of his parliament were the MPs are taken out and shot. This sort of behaviour is not learnt.


 * As an aside, Murphy is also a common Catholic / Republican name 81.86.250.153 (talk) 21:01, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Murphy murdered two friends of mine from my childhood and tried to stab me. He was definately mudered by the IRA but it was in arrangement with the many loyalists who wanted him finished. The IRA and Loyalists often helped each other out in killing members who had gotten out of control.

I hope those days are over
I think that the article (as I was when I read it right now -- it may be different as you read this) is completely, 100% accurate and very well-written. I'm not sure that it's NPOV and encyclopedic. I don't have a better idea or a constructive suggestion. Ben-w 10:17, 19 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Why do you think this? (100% accurate/well-written)  I'm not saying you're wrong, I want to know what makes you feel the article is so correct.  Toby Douglass (talk) 16:24, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

How do you have a npov on the Shankhill Butchers?
Suggestions?

British Killing Machine
My uncle was "butchered" by these animals and I lived through that evil period. It was obvious to us (people in the republican areas) at the time that these people where brought into the areas and and brought out again. They could drive anywhere in Belfast (areas where black taxis did not go - the New Lodge for example) pick up a Catholic, drive across Belfast (drunk out of their minds) and committ their murders (in front of crowd no less)!!

As soon as it would get dark, the helicopters would dissappear, the army foot patrols stopped, the RUC landrovers would not be seen and they (the Butchers) would be allowed in to cruise the streets. They where a killing machine under British control - special branch, army intelligence, UDR, RUC - take your pick as regards who they worked for. It was the apex of a general policy to terrorize, humiliate and punish the republican areas that has never been thoroughly exposed or studied - rubbish was left for weeks on end uncollected in the summer, fine old Victorian houses where bulldozed to be replaced by army designed hovels, the M1 was driven through the middle of Catholic areas creating an urban hellhole, the most innocent and harmless (old and young) where treated like filth and scum in their own homes and areas etc.

Its a comic irony that the same people had the IRA execute Murphy. It was common knowledge in Belfast the morning he was shot that Murphy was going to get whacked that day!! The common British soldier on the street was openly talking about it hours before.

On top of that Martin Dillon was conned in to writing a complete whitewash of a book. The plucky, under-resourced cops finally exposing the truth!? A complete travesty. Those famous Belfast "dogs in the street" knew exactly who was involved in this at the time.

Once upon a time all these notions would have been easily dismissed as the rantings of an aggrieved relative. But with ongoing hard evidence on collusion, Stakeknife, Denis Donaldson, etc. it all seems pretty straightforward and obvious.

The extent of the corruption that Northern Ireland is mired in is simply staggering. The Shankill Butchers were an eruption of that smouldering pit of hatred. Thank God I'm out of it.

Setanta1


 * That is all possible, given what is now coming out about the extent of collusion, but I'm sure you can understand we can't put it into the aticle unless we have concrete and verifiable proof. Jdorney 11:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Evidence For These Claims?
This article is in desperate need of respectable sources. For example, pretty much every hit on google for "Francis Crossan" links to this wikipedia article, and the article also mentions things said to him by the killers which sound pretty unverifiable. Do we have any sourced authorities confirming that all the events mentioned in the article actually happened?

edit: http://www.crimelibrary.com/terrorists_spies/terrorists/shankill_butchers/3.html discusses most of the claims made, but it doesnt give any sources either (despite a lot of waffling about 'sources at the time' and the like). It seems to be relying completely on the Dillon book; do we have any idea how reputable it is? Does anyone own it?


 * I too am concerned about this. The tone of the article appears to reflect the tone of the book.  Multiple sources are essential.  Toby Douglass (talk) 16:23, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Decemberists??
Is there a reason that the Decemberists are listed as a source? I'm a hardcore fan of theirs, but it is ridiculous that they are in the article. Also seems slightly disrespectful considering the magnitude and horror of the Butcher's crimes. If I remember, I will take it out in a week or so, depending on responses. If someone else wants to take it out before then, please do as I'm likely to forget.


 * There is a song on their latest album, "The Crane Wife", entitled "The Shankill Butchers", and the song is indeed about these men.


 * How does having a song make the Decemberists a source?

The song certainly shouldn't be a reference. Maybe create a "in popular culture" subsection, and list it and the 1998 movie "Resurrection Man"? The song is definitely not a reference. When you look at the lyrics, it's structured like a mother's warning to her children. It's sort of, "be good or the butchers will get you" and analogous to the "Boogeyman." No information about it, so it seems more like the songwriter like the name than anything else.

In response to the above, Colin Meloy related that the song is based on the real Shankill Butchers in an interview on NPR. Kusand 06:30, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

NPOV
Having read the article, I feel it to be sensationalist. The way the murders are described is intended to shock and impress upon the reader how horrific it all was. It certainly was horrific, but this is not a proper purpose for an article. "Just the facts ma'am." Toby Douglass (talk) 16:19, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

OK: so, just the facts: brutal murders were committed by a gang popularly known as the Shankhill butchers, using horrific and primitive means,from which one can draw legitimate inference as to the true motivators for the manner of selection, abuse and dispatch of their victims. What the victims said is hearsay. Strip it out. What the motivation was e.g. "more like serial killers" is speculative albeit with classical indicators towards a non-political motive. Let the horrible deeds speak for themselves and confine the article to reportage. The personal testimonies, while deeply moving and affecting, are not objective fact but the testimonies of families whose loss was and remains immense. Future generations will judge these murderers all the more accurately if we present them with the simple,awful deeds on their own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 32.106.132.98 (talk) 05:13, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree, the actions of the shankill butchers were among the most horrific of the trouble but this article is extremely POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.80.104.51 (talk) 02:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Gerard McLaverty
In the BBC report of the death of Gerard McLaverty, survivor of the gang who was the one to testify against them, it said that he was 'able to identify some of his attackers'. The wiki article says it was all of them - any further sources to confirm this view would be appreciated

See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7288785.stm

--131.111.247.135 (talk) 22:12, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Numbers
The idea the Shankill Butchers soley terrorised Catholics was also in the Belfast Telegraph lately, but I suspect it came from here. It is commonly agreed that the butchers killed 19 people of whom 7 were Catholics (according to the Belfast Telegraph article on the recent death of the only survivor of one of their horrific attacks). How does this fit in with the wording that they terrorised the Catholic community? By my working out, they killed more Protestants than Catholics... 81.86.250.153 (talk) 21:04, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

My edits
My edits today were to removed claims that individuals murdered others, which were immediately followed by "although there is no proof", or of which they were found not guilty in court. I understand that the general feeling that the Butchers killed a lot more people than they were ever convicted of, however, we must remain neutral and report the facts. The other murders, that were never proven, can still be mentioned but the claims must be attributed to whoever is making them (in this case, most likely Dillon). I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of Dillon's research, but he is just a single source. Unless a person was found guilty of a specific "murder" by a court, we must attribute the allegation. Murphy may be deceased, but that doesn't mean that we have carte blanche to report allegations as facts. Rockpock e  t  18:11, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

slight wording change
I changed "snatch a catholic" to "abduct a catholic" I felt "snatch a catholic" was a little inappropriate for the tone of this article.

random civilians.
I know that they set out with the intention of killing catholic's but in the end it was the murder of random civilians rather than random catholic civilians. Therefore I think that the lead para should be changed to reflect this. I think this would be more NPOV. Bjmullan (talk) 20:39, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No, they set out to abduct and kill Catholics, chosen randomly from the areas that community was associated with. All six cut-throat victims were Catholics and their Protestant victims were either caught up in attacks on Catholics or in feuds. Billsmith60 (talk) 17:45, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

List of victims
I think we should include a full chronological list of people who the gang killed (or are believed to have killed). This list could include: I'm sure Dillon's book has all the info we need, but unfortunately I don't own a copy. If someone who has a copy could post that info I'll gladly make it into a list or a table. ~Asarlaí 23:58, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * the date of death
 * the name
 * the age
 * the status (i.e. Catholic civilian, Protestant civilian, UVF member)
 * the manner and place of death (in brief)
 * who was convicted or suspected of involvement
 * not a bad idea friend; let's see if this can be progressed. Billsmith60 (talk) 23:22, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree it's a good idea.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:14, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

I've drawn-up a table. Let me know what you think...

~Asarlaí 22:43, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Excellent. Nice job!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 20:58, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Do you think we could put it into the article as is or should we be putting references beside each entry? All of the info comes from Dillon's book (which is referenced thruout the article) and the Sutton Index of Deaths on CAIN (which is also referenced), apart from the info about Rosaleen O'Kane. ~Asarlaí 16:40, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * We should really ref each death. There's also the claim by retired RUC detective Alan Simpson that Dillon's version of the pliers incident never happened. Simpson alleges that Tommy Stewart knocked out Donegan's teeth when he hit him in the face with the spade.Lenny Murphy never pulled out his teeth with pliers.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 16:47, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I added the list to the article with a reference for each person and removed the bit about Donegan. Feel free to add more info or refs. ~Asarlaí 17:33, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Very well done folks but the O'Kane death has no proven link to the Butchers and I've removed it. The BBC website title doesn't help, right enough.Billsmith60 (talk) 13:24, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I also had my doubts about including the Rosaleen O'Kane murder.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:22, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Edits by 149.254.182.99
This IP has reverted the recent edits by myself and Billsmith. They have made the wording more complex, removed some info, removed wikilinks, removed the pictures and removed John Murphy from the list of gangmembers. I'd like them to explain each of their changes here. ~Asarlaí 22:12, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree, much of the edit is way over the top although some of what that user says about the terminology is fair enough (e.g. "on Shankill Road" would never be said: "on the Shankill" or "on the Shankill Road" is what you'd hear and read). In reverting, would Asarlai please reinstate my edit about John Murphy being "one of Lenny's brothers", as it's very important. Regards, Billsmith60 (talk) 22:25, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * If I revert again I'd be breaking the 3RR. Also...I know "on the Shankill Road" is used more often than "on Shankill Road", but "the" isn't needed, which is why it was removed. However, if you'd rather keep it in I'm fine with that. ~Asarlaí 22:37, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

1972 murders attributed to the Shankill Butchers
Martin Dillon alleges that a whole slew of murders in 1972 were the work of the Butchers, and the modus operandi (random Catholics abducted, cut with knifes, and killed) certainly seems like it. Worth a mention? Jpatokal (talk) 12:20, 10 July 2011 (UTC)


 * What Dillon actually says is that Lenny Murphy was responsible for several murders in 1972. However, as he didn't form the Butcher gang until the summer of 1975, it is not appropriate to include the reference here. Billsmith60 (talk) 19:14, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. Any crime Lenny Murphy committed prior to the formation of the Shankill Butchers in the summer of 1975 needs to be in his article, not this one.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 10:53, 16 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The CAIN service seems to feel that the 1972 murders should be associated with The Butchers as murders committed before. Why not add a section specifying their earlier murders?  http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/sbutchers/dead.htm  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.7.224.10 (talk) 02:37, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Mass murders in the lead
Does thisreally belong in the lead? One editor has re-added it after removal. It is in my opinion a touch POV, should WP:TERRORIST be used as a guideline here?Murry1975 (talk) 09:46, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * It shouldn't be in the lede and the user should be blocked for breaking 1RR. I will informed them of the rule on their homepage. Bjmullan (talk) 10:53, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * BTW can someone else revert the article to the stable version. I got a block the last time I reverted a IP (which technically doesn't count against the 1RR) and I'm not going to risk it again. Bjmullan (talk) 11:07, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I already reverted it less than 24 hours ago, so someone else will have to do it lest I'm blocked for breaking 1RR. What I don't understand is why the IP hasn't been blocked yet?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:02, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Jeanne, I didn't report him just gave notified him of the rule. Bjmullan (talk) 14:56, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Tommy Stewart
Tommy Stewart is described in the article as having been an associate of Lenny Murphy's and helped carry out the Donegan killing. Why is he not named in the list of gang members?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:00, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Jeanne, those listed as gang members are Lenny's original sidekicks. Tommy Stewart was one of the new breed he recruited after his release from prison in the summer of 1982 but he wasn't convicted of anything to do with the Donegan killing, IIRC Billsmith60 (talk) 15:44, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, thanks. Was he ever charged with or convicted of UVF membership?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:56, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

John Murphy
A recent book claims John Murphy was the real leader, not Lenny.--Batmacumba (talk) 20:05, 8 January 2019 (UTC) https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/lenny-murphys-brother-was-real-boss-of-shankill-butchers-gang-says-new-book-35830982.html