Talk:Shirley Temple Black

Lifetime template
The following were removed in favor of the  template: – p i e ( Climax !)  07:04, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Redirect disabled
I disabled the redirect to Shirley Temple to see if the italicized names, Shirley Temple Black, in the category lists would change to normal type. And they did! – p i e ( Climax !) 07:14, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Message to editor who removed all the categories and converted back to auto-redirect. The categories are necessary so that Shirley Temple Black is mentioned in them under her full name. Before I made this change, she was listed in these categories only as "Shirley Temple". By converting from an auto-redirect to a manual-redirect, the name in the categories appears without italics, like all the other names. These were needed improvements. Please don't change them again without first discussing them here on the talk page. – p i e ( Climax !) 14:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This is entirely unnecessary. She doesn't need to be categorized by her full name, she just needs to be categorized by whatever name is decided on for the article (per naming conventions). Furthermore, that the exact same person is listed twice in these categories, albeit under two slightly different names, is redundant. This should be an auto-redirect without any categories other than Template:R from alternative name or the like. See William Jefferson Clinton and Edson Arantes do Nascimento for examples. Nufy8 (talk) 02:22, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, it is necessary while the main article remains titled Shirley Temple. The reason it is necessary is because the categories involved require the subject to be alphabetized in the "B's" with her full name, Shirley Temple Black.  This would all be solved by tagging the Shirley Temple Black page for speedy deletion and then renaming the Shirley Temple article as Shirley Temple Black.  To me, this would be the best possible solution under the circumstances.  The subject is just as well known by her full name as she is by her childhood-star name.  She should be categorized as an ambassador, California republican, etc., using her full name. – p i e ( Climax !)  04:44, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If you feel that she should be recognized primarily as Shirley Temple Black then I suggest raising the issue on Talk:Shirley Temple. Provide an argument for moving based on aforementioned naming conventions, then wait for others to weigh in. Either way, deletion should be held off until consensus has been reached. Nufy8 (talk) 15:47, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. It is done. – <b style="font-variant:small-caps; color:darkblue; font-family:Arial;">p i e</b> (<b style="color:blue; font-family:Arial;"> Climax !</b>)  04:24, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Brief history

 * When I came across the Shirley Temple page, I looked for the subject in the Category lists under the "B's" for "Shirley Temple Black", but her name was not listed there. I found the subject listed under the "T's" as "Shirley Temple".  And this did not seem right to have the subject listed under such categories as an ambassador, diplomat, California republican, etc., by her childhood-star name.  I believed she should be listed by her present name of "Shirley Temple Black".


 * First, I checked at the WP:Help_desk and found that I could alter some of the categories on the Shirley Temple page to a name that was different from the default name. However when I checked the categories after making the change, I found that this only accomplished putting the article name, "Shirley Temple" under the "B's" in the categories.  The "Black" did not appear.  To be clear, the subject was listed under the "B's" as "Shirley Temple".


 * This, too, was unacceptable, so I got the idea to list some of the categories on the "Shirley Temple Black" redirect page. This worked better because this placed her full name in the "B's" in those categories.  However, since those categories are also still listed on the "Shirley Temple" page, her name was also still listed as "Shirley Temple" under the "T's" in all the categories.  Also, her full name that was listed under the "B's" was in italics, as in Shirley Temple Black.  I found that this was because the "Shirley Temple Black" page was a Redirect to the "Shirley Temple" page.  At that point I disabled the automatic Redirect and created a manual redirect.  This made the subject's full name appear normally in the categories.


 * As you can see above, another editor has disagreed with this change and sets forth the valid complaint that the subject is listed twice in the categories. This is because I brought the more appropriate categories to the "Shirley Temple Black" manual redirect page, but I did not remove those categories from the "Shirley Temple" page.  So the honorable Mrs. Black is listed both under the "B's" as "Shirley Temple Black" and under the "T's" as "Shirley Temple".


 * The most acceptable solution to this dilemma seems to be to delete the "Shirley Temple Black" page so that the "Shirley Temple" article can be renamed using the honorable Mrs. Black's full name for the article: Shirley Temple Black.  Since she is just as well-known and notable by her full name, I believe this is in conformance with WP:UCN.  I have placed the
 * template on the "Shirley Temple Black" page as the first step in renaming the "Shirley Temple" page. – <b style="font-variant:small-caps; color:darkblue; font-family:Arial;">p i e</b> (<b style="color:blue; font-family:Arial;"> Climax !</b>) 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Update
With respect to editor Nufy8 and others who may be interested, the plan to move the Shirley Temple article to Shirley Temple Black reached stage 2 with a discussion on the Shirley Temple Talk page. Discussions took place initially here, and then here, and finally here. That last one is a resolution of the technical issue of putting some of the cats on this Shirley Temple Black redirect page. As can be seen, this plan is supported by Display of category pages (under the "Form of entries" section), and also by Categorizing redirects. The importance appears to lie in ensuring that any given cat is only on one of the pages, either the ST article or the STB redirect. If a cat appears on both pages, then Mrs. Black's name will appear twice in that category, and this ought to be avoided.

There is no consensus to move the Shirley Temple article here at the present time. – <b style="font-variant:small-caps; color:darkblue; font-family:Arial;">p i e</b> (<b style="color:blue; font-family:Arial;"> Climax !</b>) 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Update 2
Now there is no reason to be concerned if a subject appears twice in a cat under two names, such as Shirley Temple and Shirley Temple Black. As I added to the tmbox at the TOP of this page, WP:TMR tells us that including cats on both article and redirect pages is "helpful". This is evidence that it's acceptable for one subject to be listed twice in a category. – <b style="font-variant:small-caps; color:darkblue; font-family:Arial;">p i e</b> (<b style="color:blue; font-family:Arial;"> Climax !</b>) 07:33, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Redirect categories
From the top of this talk page:

There is ample support to include categories on redirects. – P AINE E LLSWORTH  <sup style="font-size:x-small; color:blue; font-family:Arial;">C L I M A X !  18:12, 21 January 2013 (UTC) That is a list of redirect category templates that are used to categorize redirects. – P AINE E LLSWORTH  <sup style="font-size:x-small; color:blue; font-family:Arial;">C L I M A X !  03:18, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Duplicate categorization Don't put this redirect and the article into categories&mdash;that's nonsense. If you need to sort her by "black" (which you shouldn't) then just sort that category. —Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 15:22, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Duplicate categorization is common and acceptable. All you need do is read the linked pages.  I do agree, though, that the redirect should not be categorized alphabetically under "Black".  It should be grouped together with the "Shirley Temple" listings, which is how this has been done in the past, so I have adjusted the sort. –   Paine Ellsworth   <b style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">C LIMAX !</b> 15:43, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Other editors have shown their disagreement on this. I've removed the categories. It makes no sense for the same person to be listed under two different names, with one being a redirect. <i style="font-family:Rockwell; font-size:medium; color:red;">Rusted AutoParts</i> 00:30, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Other editors may disagree with common practice - this does not change the fact that it is still common practice. Please read the links to confirm this. –   Paine Ellsworth   <b style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">C LIMAX !</b> 14:49, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It's common practice, but in this case unnecessary as she's already listed in each cat as Shirley Temple. And you're the only one insisting it stays. <i style="font-family:Rockwell; font-size:medium; color:red;">Rusted AutoParts</i> 15:48, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * This was decided years ago on the Shirley Temple talk page, which is where this discussion really should be taking place, since this talk page is supposed to be closed. If you prefer, we can take it there and rehash it all over again?  Personally, I think the main article should be titled with her full name; however, the longstanding consensus that resulted from losing that battle years ago was to ensure that her full, notable adult name would appear in all categories that apply to her adult name.  –   Paine Ellsworth   <b style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">C LIMAX !</b> 16:55, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * PS. Please note that the cats on this page are only those to which the adult "Shirley Temple Black" should be sorted. PS left by –   Paine Ellsworth   <b style="font-size:x-small; color:blue;">C LIMAX !</b>