Talk:Sindhis/Archive 1

Untitled
Lets Start the Sindhi people community discussion forum :

Hi,I am Umesh Phulwani currently I am working as a Soft.Engg. in Pune. Mah. I know very little about Sindhi culture .Traditionally I feel Sindhi people dont like Sindhism and they are afraid of showing their identity. But I feel we the new generation are capable and dare enough to talk about ourself. Well in Pune I dont know any dedicated Temple for Sindhi's "Tikaannaa". Anyone in Pimpri,Pune must be knowing it .Please write it down in this discussion forum. ................................................................................................
 * I'm sorry, but this page can't be used as a discussion forum, it is meant for discussion about the article. utcursch | talk 08:30, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

Separate articles?
I've seen the edits to this articles in recent times. There seems to be some confusion regarding Sindhis of India and Sindhis of Pakistan. For example, Jhulelal is venerated among Hindu Sindhis, not Muslim Sindhis of Pakistan. I wonder if there should there be separate artciles: Sindhi people of India and Sindhi people of Pakistan? utcursch | talk 10:49, 17 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Hey Utcursch. Good ideas as always.  Although I have to ask what's the point of discussing this one deity regarding even the Sindhis of India?  They are, in general Hindu, and I'd hate to see an entire article about them become simply a platform for this particular deity.  With that said, I am not necessarily averse to the idea of separate articles for each, but they should adhere to certain standards.  For example, this article on the Sindhi people doesn't overally examine specific veneration of sufi saints, but just mentions that some of them are involved in that practice etc.  Similarly, that's what should take place for a Sindhi people of India article in my opinion IF you choose to go that route.  I'm somewhat neutral on the idea, but I greatly appreciate your attempt at seeing all sides and trying to find a solution.  I'm just not sure you need to do that for everyone who is sitting on a soapbox.  Perhaps we could keep this article as a general one and then a separate one for the Sindhis of India since they are the much smaller group AND there are over a million Sindhi Hindus in Pakistan as well.  Just my take.  Thanks and take care.  Tombseye 20:59, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

-> You can't say that Jhilelal is just association with Hindus Sindhis of India. As there are Hindu Sindhis both in India and Pakistan. As for Jhulelal, he is celebrated by Sindhi Muslims also, but just by different names....

-> Also, many of todays Sindhi Muslims would have been at some point Sindhi Hindus who changed religion etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.107.77 (talk) 15:45, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Utcursch, I disagree. This is an article about an ethnic community, and includes Muslims and Hindus. Moreover, there are Hindu Sindhis in Pakistan, so the religious divide is not clearly demarcated over borders. Many ethnic communities span different religions, such as Gujaratis, but have just one page. Btw, Jhulelal is venerated by many Sindhi Muslims too. One may argue as to whether this contradicts conditions of monotheism, but nonetheless, there you go! —Preceding unsigned comment added by MAKootage (talk • contribs) 14:17, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Jinnah's Picture
-Muhammad Ali Jinnah was of Gujarati origin. Just because he was born in Sindh, it does not change his ethnicity, which goes back to his parents, who were from Gujarat. Someone clarify for me please. It would be better to try to find a picture of some historic Sindhi person like, Shah Abdul Latif, if one exists. -User: Afghan Historian


 * firstly jinnah is here becuase i couldnt find any other un-copyrighted pictures of famous sindhi people. if you can find one for me. great ill change it. but seriously i do think jinnah should be considered sindhi. he was born in sindh for 1, 2) he is of the of the clan that most muslims in north west india is from. rajput, jat or whatever, unless you can give me concrete proof saying he is a GUJJAR.
 * His father was a Khoja muslim from the Kathiawar area in Gujarat. Furthermore Jinnah spoke Gujarati, Karachi was and still is one of the most cosmopolitan cities in South Asia, people from many different ethnicities who live there.

this might help you.you can find names and list of sindhi (muslims and hindus)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sindh

Some Sindhi Some Sindhi personalities / dignitaries who born in Sindh / Sindhi families & earned international name / reputation

link (http://www.sindhtoday.net/celebrity.htm)

--Khalidkhoso 12:18, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

The link doesn't work. I notice you refer to a Sindhi magazine. Jinnah himself admitted he was a Gujarati and spoke Gujarati fluently; just have a google at it, there are countless links to prove this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roshanh (talk • contribs) 09:26, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Moved from Talk:Main Page

 * ''Dear Sir/Madam, It is mentioned on the page


 * ''http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhi_people


 * ''that there are 23 millio Sindhi speakers. Though this figure is much lower than the fatual figure, an other page


 * ''http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhi_language


 * ''states that the number of Sindhi speakers in only 19.7 millions.  It is contradictions in what the Wikipedia states for Sindhi lanauge.


 * ''There is an other condradictory statement on


 * ''http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhi_language


 * ''that Sindhi is written in Devnagri script. The fact is that the Devnagri script is never recognized officially.  Even the govt. of India declares Sindhi as one of its official and national languages in ARABIC SINDHI script.  Even if you consider the Devnagri script more acceptable to Sindhi Hindus in India, considering their smaller number (2.8 millions: as stated by one of your pages), the Sindhi article on the page


 * ''http://sd.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page


 * ''must have been place in Sindhi Arabic script. Sindhi practically used as official language in Sindh in Sindhi Arabic Script.  The official website of NATIONAL COUNCIL FOR PROMOTION OF SINDHI LANGUAGE (INDIA) provides a Sindhi font for downloading, which is an ARABIC-SINDHI font.  This established the fact that even in INDIA, Sindhi is dominantly accepted and written in ARABIC-SINDHI script.


 * ''Kindly redress the issue; by placing the articles in ARABIC-SINDHHI script.


 * ''Ahsan Ahmad Ursani

The above was originally posted on Talk: Main Page by User:Aursani at 23:30 on 2006 February 14 (UTC). --PFHLai 07:30, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


 * [TEJWANI]: Dear Sir/Madam, I second the opinion of Ursani above regarding ARABIC-SINDHI script. I for one was educated in this script in a primary school in INDIA.

Template Problems
-I removed the Baloch and Pashtuns as Indo-Aryan-relatives of the Sindhis from the template. They are both Iranian peoples, not Indo-Aryan groups. Just because they reside on the subcontinent (or more rather, its northwestern fringes) doesn't mean they are Indo-Aryan. I've replaced them with Rajputs and Jats, who are Indo-Aryan. -Afghan Historian 21:00, 7 March 2006 (UTC)]]

Indian Sindhis
This article discusses nothing about Indian Sindhis or of influence of Hinduism on Sindhis as a whole. My understanding is that most Hindu Sindhis who migrated to India were of merchant castes while those left behind were of so called "lower" castes. Maybe somebody could contribute to this. अमेय आर्यन DaBroodey 16:03, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

NO there is no such things.Those who were left behind were protect by muslims and many of those adopted cast system of those muslim as we have Bugti Hindu Sindhi(they are Hindu Sindhi),Rind Hindu Sindhi and many more but many have not changed there cast as we have advani(L.K advai Head of BJP in india) and Govindani and many other Hindu Sindhi (they are many From Middle or High Class Religious class) as Barhaman Sindhi living in Thar. You are true that Hindu sindhi are marchant,that is true.it is regardless if they are an india,pakistan or any part of world.here in Pakistan sindh Hindu Sindhi are Educated and having good jobs.

Dravidians
The part about Dravidians invading from Iran and being linguistically related to the Elamites is a controversial theory that is not universally accepted, but it is presented as indisputably factual in the article. --Grammatical error 12:38, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

where to put these cast\tribes names
There are many other groups too ,i am not sure about there roots but for sure they been living here in sindh for centuries. tell me where to put them? List of tribes


 * Khaskhli (tribe living in larkana,Shahdad kot,Tando Adam)
 * Dahar
 * Qasmi
 * Qureshi
 * Sommro
 * Jukhio
 * Bundh
 * Tuni
 * Bohar
 * Jhatial
 * Thebo
 * Abbasi
 * Mangi
 * Qazi
 * Mahar
 * Sindhi Memon
 * Odho
 * Hakro
 * Syial
 * Jiskani ( tribe living in Moro, khairpur,karachi,ghotki,tando adam ,mithi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.186.66.239 (talk) 05:31, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

--Khalidkhoso 05:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

these all are sindhi speaking groups and living sindh for generations —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Khalidkhoso (talk • contribs) 05:55, 20 December 2006 (UTC).


 * I have added these tribes to the article and provided a reference. Those who have more knowledge on the tribes are welcome to elaborate on them. Thanks, AnupamTalk 06:52, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Anu for All this Help

--Khalidkhoso 11:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all Infobox Ethnic group infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:22, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Mass exodus of Hindu Sindhis
This article should not have been 'linked out' to some Partition of India page. It is insulting to the Hindu Sindhi community. The fate of Hindu Sindhis was terrible, as the Hindus forced out of Sindh due to violence (though it is a pity that younger generations are told they 'left' as if by choice). The Partition was the worse thing to happen in Sindh (both for Muslims and Hindus). Millions of Hindus were forced to flee!

Many Hindus wanted to return to Sindh which was their native homeland once the violence died down but were unable to.

I think is an insult to a community that has suffered the most as a result of the Partition, to not even be acknowledged and that the article should be fobbed off somewhere else....

Hindu Sindhis were left with no homeland, unlike Punjab we split between India and Pak and so was Bengal. So each community had a piece of land. Even then slitting of Sindh was not necessary, as Hindu Sindis would have been okay to live under Muslim rule, so long as the community was respected and protected.

Today those Hindu Sindhi that have left, are propering due to hard work and grace of God. The language of Hindu Sindhis is dying in India etc... since most migrated to parts which are not native in language etc...

I am not going to edit back the Mass Exodus of Hindu Sindhis.... since someone will come along and try to re-write history!. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.172.177 (talk) 12:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

HEY HOW ABOUT SOME STORY ON SINDHI DIASPORA IN THE WEST. WHERE IS THE MENTION OF THIS STORY? THERE ARE THOUSAND OF US AND WE ARE AS IMPORTANT AS THE REST. PLEASE INFORM ME OF WHEN YOU CONCLUDE TO INCLUDE THIS INFORMATION THANK YOU VERY MUCH AND MAY YOU HAVE A NICE DAY.

The mass migration is a pity. There was never any history of violence between Hindus and Muslims in Sindh. The departure of so many Hindus is detrimental to the rich Sindhi culture of Hindus, which is fading away in modern day India. Overall the current (19 Dec 2009) version seems fair and balanced to both sides. Have a nice day.

At the time of partition in 1947, Sindh had a large community of Sindhi Hindus who were involved in trade and commerce. They contributed significantly to the economy of Sindh, in particular selling locally made goods overseas. There were not any problems between Sindhi Muslims and Sindhi Hindus.

Unlike Punjab and Bengal which were split, all of Sindh was allotted to Pakistan. When the partition occurred, Sindhi Hindus expected to remain in Sindh. However were forced to flee due to communal violence when Muslims from other parts of India started to put into Sindh. Popati Hiranandani born 1924, a writer native to Sindh tells of this ordeal in her autobiography and describes that the police were merely onlookers when the violence erupted and failed to protect the Hindu community. The Hindu Sindhis were forced to leave everthing behind. Sindhi Hindus had expected to return to their motherland, once the violence settled but it was not possible.

Anti Mohajir Bias: Section on exodus mentioned that Hindu property was "taken over" by Mohajirs, unfairly implying a theft that never occurred. Also goes on further to mention that this made it "impossible for them to return" which indicates intent to return. There was sadly no such intent. Most Hindu Sindhis sold their property, packed up and left with no intention on returning to their homeland —Preceding unsigned comment added by MAKootage (talk • contribs) 06:16, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

What a load of bullshit, MAKootage, what a load of bullshit. My family's property was taken over by Mohajir immigrants, and my grandparents were forced to leave immediately with barely any property. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roshanh (talk • contribs) 11:08, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 19:52, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Excessive protectiveness
Users DO NOT own the article. It can and will be edited as other editors see fit.

Wikipedia is not a place for propaganda. You may have an opinion, but unless you can provide reliable sourcecs, it does not belong in the article. Even if you do find sources, you cannot turn the article into a soapbox.

Gamesmaster G-9 (talk) 08:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

User:Skatergal, your edits and comments suggest that you have assumed ownership of this article. That is not in keeping with Wikipedia guidelines. I would like to repeat my offer for a discussion on the issue. I realise you feel strongly about this topic, but no single user has a right over any article.

Gamesmaster G-9 (talk) 20:13, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Rfc regarding back-and-forth edits
Anything in particular?  YellowMonkey  ( click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model! ) 03:38, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I was makiing an attempt to clean up this article by - 1)removing strongly NPOV and unsourced controversial statements and 2) removing parts that belonged in a different article. I was constantly blocked by a group of editors, probably belonging to the Hindu Sindhi community, who saw each edit as an attack on the community.

As evidence you can see the edit history, particularly these two, and comments, it was a clear case of ownership.

However, ever since I added the Rfc tag, the edit warring has stopped, so there may not be any need for comment.

Gamesmaster G-9 (talk) 17:37, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

There is no need for an edit war
Gamesmasterg9, who told you "Jatin Lalwani" and "Ramesh Taurani" are Producers? They are actors. You have made a mess of the whole article. There are no Baloch Sindhis, Balochis are a different cast, thanks for nothing! -Skatergirl —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skatergal (talk • contribs) 22:53, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Skatergal, a little civility would be nice. And if it makes you feel better, I admit that I was wrong about Messrs Taurani and Lalwani. As you correctly point out, they are actors, not producers. Now can we move on to the important stuff? Gamesmaster G-9 (talk) 23:27, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

To the Sindhi editors, and particularly to User:Skatergal - I understand that you feel strongly about this article, and also that you have a great deal more specialised knowledge on the topic than I do (being non-Sindhi), but Wikipedia is not just about that. This is an encyclopaedia and there are very specific guidelines on what makes a good article. You may feel that all the information you put must remain, but remember that the article does not belong to any user or group. In order to make this more readable, I have made attempts to reorganise it, and to remove sections that do not belong in the article for a variety of reasons - some do not conform to WP:NPOV, and others should be in separate articles.

I appreciate your input and do not want to get into a fight, because I realise your knowledge on this topic is deeper than mine. However, it is helpful to have an objective, outside opinion on the issue. Please do not make this a Sindhi/non-Sindhi battle, because that is clearly against the spirit of Wikipedia.

Gamesmaster G-9 (talk) 02:00, 28 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Gamesmasterg9, I really don't understand what is your problem. You are the one being stubborn who reverts my edit every morning I wake up. I don't have a problem with non-Sindhis contributing, but you're not contributing anything, you are just reverting and not making progress. Any edit I make, I provide a link for its validity. You should really explain your actions. In the future, I would like you to discuss the changes you want with me, instead of just reverting the whole thing.

(response by User:Skatergal)


 * First, your own comments make it very clear that you do in fact have problems with non-Sindhis contributing, but I will let that slide. Regarding my edits - I do consider them to be constructive, and if you will look at the history, I have explained each edit I made. Your response to that was to revert everything and threaten me.
 * Second, you have to stop acting like you are the keeper of this article. I am under no compulsion to get your approval on every change I make. On Wikipedia, we are all editors, and we are all equals. This means that disagreements are sorted out by discussion - not stonewalling.
 * Now, here is what I am going to do. I am making all the changes I made earlier, and once again, for your benefit, I am going to explain why I am making each change. Any disagreements you have, you can list here, and they can be discussed.

Gamesmaster G-9 (talk) 22:54, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Sri Lankan Sindhis
There is also a dispora in Sri Lanka. please add to page. --92.9.53.245 (talk) 21:01, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * The article has currently been locked. Once the issues are resolved we will certainly deal with it. Gamesmaster G-9 (talk) 23:29, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

DAB link
Hi. There's a link to the DAB page Punjab in the section Ethnicity. Could you change it a piped link to Punjab region, please? Thanks Ka Faraq Gatri (talk) 22:57, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅ Ruslik (talk) 09:17, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Bhutto picture
If you take a look at the best articles on Ethnic groups, you will see that they try and feature members of that group throughout history. In particular look at Tamil people, which is a featured article, and about also about an Indic group. They have included people from various fields, and periods in history. Also look at Greeks and Irish people for examples.

Not only do I think Bhutto's picture should stay, but I think we need more pictures of notable Pakistani Sindhis. Given that two-thirds of Sindhis live in Pakistan, it would be unfair if not even one Pakistani was shown in the notable people section. Gamesmaster G-9 (talk) 21:36, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, correct, but while that's been done, there is now only one Indian Sindhi on the montage buddy! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.126.108.147 (talk) 09:16, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Informal mediation
The editing dispute seems to include:


 * A disagreement over the images used in the infobox. Specifically whether there should be 3 images depicting Sindhis from India only, or whether there should be 5, depicting, in addition to Sindhis from India, Sindhis from Pakistan. In the context of Gamesmasterg9's explanation above, it would be helpful if Skatergal could explain why she believes the additional images shouldn't be included.


 * In the meantime, we have some another user getting in on the act. All the pictures of Indian Sindhis were replaced by Pakistanis. I reverted it, but this has the beginnings of a long pissing contest. Gamesmaster G-9 (talk) 02:26, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * There is an edit war over including names in the famous Sindhis in Bollywood section. This includes a revert war over the addition of fact tags. In some cases, sources appear to be available, for example seems to indicate the Ramsay Brothers are Sindhi. In these cases, I suggest adding the biographical articles to Category:Sindhi people, and either include a source in the biographical article, or on its talk page.

PhilKnight (talk) 17:13, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I've protected again. PhilKnight (talk) 22:46, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Interwiki hr
Could an admin put interwiki: Sindhi Thanx! Vedran12 (talk) 20:47, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * ✅. PhilKnight (talk) 11:37, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

The section about mass exodus of Hindu Sindhis
I noticed a term, "Sindhi baloch"... what does that mean??? is there something like that??? from what I know, Balochi are people from balochistan province... whereas sindhis are from sindh province.. I can understand Hindu sindhi and muslim sindhi, but what is this balochi sindhi? actually even hindu sindhi sounds funny, becoz sindhis who are non-muslim just call themselves sindhi, they worship jhooley lal, matsya avtaar of vishnu... whereas those who got converted to islam stopped worshipping jhooleylal but continued sticking to sindhi culture/language... but then again, a popular sufi composition by shah baz kalandar set in sindhi culture, damadam mast qalandar, says repeatedly, "jhooley laalan", and then also says, "name-e-ali"...Lilaac (talk) 04:09, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

My doubts
I have some doubts regarding some stuff written in this article without references, but I dont want to change it and cause arguments... 1.Ancient name of Multan was Sarawakistan?? "stan" is a irani root word, sindh province was aryan territory in ancient times, multan would have had some other sanskrit name in vedic times until islamic invasions. 
 * I found the right ancient name, it was 'Mulastanapura' in Sanskrit, known by that name upto 8th century, prior to arab conquest. This is the reference: http://books.google.com/books?id=9qVkNBge8mIC&pg=PA96&dq=Multan+historical+names&ei=67ggSoLiI5aQyAT9rcXFAg, The Indian diaspora in Central Asia and its trade, 1550-1900,pg.96, By Scott Cameron Levi. -Lilaac (talk) 04:52, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I found further references of its name right from mauryan empire to modern day: http://books.google.com/books?id=7E1XAAAAMAAJ&q=Kasyapapura&dq=Kasyapapura&ei=jlQlSu28IJOUzATm_b33Bg&pgis=1. Pg 41 History of the Punjab: Pre-historic times to age of Asoka, By Fauja Singh. Lilaac (talk) 16:37, 2 June 2009 (UTC) 
 * And I also realised that the article Multan has its ancient names right, and sarawakistan has no results even in google search! Lilaac (talk) 16:56, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

2.traditional dress of pakistani sindhis is salwar kameez but Indian sindhis also wear jeans?? I am sure young pakistani sindhis raised in modern cities may be wearing kurtis&jeans, its not an Indian sindhi thing.. 

3.The entertainment section mentions a popular sindhi, Shahana Goswami. From what I know, Goswamis are bengalis!Lilaac (talk) 04:37, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with most of your doubts. I have tried to make changes before, but there is a small Sindhi group that consistently blocks the changes. Since I don't know much about Sindhi culture, I don't want to make changes unless I am absolutely sure. Gamesmaster G-9 (talk) 17:30, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Anti-Muslim slant
I have made a number of changes to the article to remove words that have no place in an encyclopaedia. For example - referring to the Muslim residents of Sindh as "descendants of immigrants" and "conquerors", rather than just calling tham Muslim Sindhis, essentially conflates Sindhi-ness with Hinduism, which is far from true.

I realise that the Partition of India is an event that Hindu Sindhis feel very strongly about, but those emotions should not be reflected in this article. For example, it is known that Hindu Sindhis have achieved success in the fields of business after being forced to leave Pakistan, but that should be written as an objective fact, and not embellished with statements like "On the ruins of Old Sindh has arisen a New Sindh, which truly has a Global presence today."

--- I disagree with the above statement. It is not an anti-muslim slant. What you are refering to is actually a battle between the incoming Muslim post 1947 and Sindhi Muslims. The new incoming Muslims don't see themselves as Sindhi nor to they accept the language.

Gamesmaster G-9 (talk) 01:48, 25 June 2009 (UTC) The inc

The article is the subject of edit wars. Many users try to create an anti Muslim slant in their "revised" versions. The incoming Muslims are Mohajirs and no one is calling them Sindhi. But the native Muslims ie: Sindhi Muslims are just as Sindhi as their Hindu counterparts.

And to write an embellished statement like "On the ruins of Old Sindh has arisen a New Sindh, which truly has a Global presence today." indicates a very clear bias —Preceding unsigned comment added by MAKootage (talk • contribs) 05:53, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

How on Earth does it even come close to indicating bias? It's just implying that Sindh has developed itself after the events that unfolded in 1947! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roshanh (talk • contribs) 09:24, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Shilpa Saklani is not Sindhi
'''PLease remove Shilpa Saklanis name from the list of Sindhi people in entertainment. She is Garhwali from Uttranchal''' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Limpbiz0007 (talk • contribs) 13:13, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

including, but not limited to
"Including, but not limited to" is lawyer-speak and is unnecessary since "including" implies additional items already. --Unimath (talk) 12:50, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Sindhi People vs Sindhis
Please excuse my ignorance on this, but what is the difference in these two topics that requires two different articles? Ulric1313 (talk) 08:46, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I sincerely doubt it does require two articles. Sindhis was created as a redirect to Sindhi people. It existed merely as a redirect for three and a half years. Then, an editor with only two previous at the time turns Sindhis into a separate article with any explanation on Talk pages or an edit summary for it. If you follow the edits, it appears that this novice editor either doesn't understand or doesn't want to follow the collaborative process of wikipedia. He/she appears to be trying to assert ownership over the new Sindhis article and diverting traffic from the original article. I've reverted it back to the redirect and plan to advise the novice editor of the problem with this course of conduct. --JamesAM (talk) 00:56, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Beware copy-paste / copyvio contributions
Wasimawan, a major contributor to this article since September 2009, has a history of introducing copyvio material (see Wasimawan's talk page). Most recently, s/he copy-pasted into this article several copyrighted paragraphs from History of the Indian Subcontinent (typos and all) and an image that is obviously not his/her own work, as was claimed. Other past edits by Wasimawan on this article may have been similarly plagiaristic; if you have the time to investigate and weed out any other copyvio content, your help would be appreciated. In the meantime, please be generally alert for copy-paste violations in this article. AtticusX (talk) 11:22, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Copyright problem
This article has been reverted to an earlier version as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Text entered by this contributor duplicated at least in part material from. Other content added by this contributor may have been copied from other sources and has been removed in accordance with Copyright violations. Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. Content added by other contributors subsequent to the introduction of this material can be restored if it does not merge with this text to create a derivative work. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 17:29, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Kurdistanica does not have significant information pertaining to Sindh or Sindhi people. Copyright issues aside, you removed swathes of academic information in favor of a heavily slanted piece. You may remove any pictures that conflict with copyright laws, but please do not try and subvert these laws to suit a personal bias. I understand Partition of India and Pakistan evokes strong emotions on both sides, but this is a subject warranting an academic perspective. MAKootage (talk) 05:22, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

There was in fact 2 paragraphs under the section Aryan Period that were directly lifted from kurdistanica.com. I can understand how this is tantamount to a copyright issue. I have thus removed them. However, the other paragraphs are not from kurdistanica. Now if the previous version is restored, it is not a copyright issue. But it will become an NPOV issue as that particular section is a highly slanted one —Preceding unsigned comment added by MAKootage (talk • contribs) 07:39, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The editors who have taken on the thankless task of weeding out Wasimawan's mess of plagiaristic content show no evidence of subverting laws to suit a personal bias, as far as I can see. If there happens to be a slant to some of the illegal material removed, that's only a reflection on the interests of the idiot who copy-pasted the "swaths of academic information".  No reason to jump on editors whose agenda is the legal protection of Wikipedia. AtticusX (talk) 15:27, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Nationalist Movement
I removed a section known as the Sindhi Nationalist Movement for three reasons.

1) It is a political movement, whereas this page deals with cultural, religious and linguistic identity of Sindhis 2) To place such a movement on the Sindhis page indicates that it speaks for the majority, or at least a substantial portion of, Sindhis, which it does not. 3) The movement is an obscure movement that has largely faded into hubris and thus, does not warrant a 500 word paragraph on its status

Your feedback is welcome :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by MAKootage (talk • contribs) 12:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for explaining your rationale. AtticusX (talk) 15:27, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Indian Sindhis?
I have noticed that some Indian Sindhis have been left out of the montage of Sindhis. Last time I came here, I remember seeing Karan Johar (a self-admitted Sindhi himself) being here. Also, Danish Kaneria is NOT Sindhi. He is Marwari; he has said that himself and even his Wikipedia page says so. Being born in Sindh doesn't give him the privilege of being Sindhi! Same case for Muhammad Ali Jinnah; it's a well known fact that both he and Gandhi were Gujaratis. Jinnah is NOT a Sindhi at all! He is a Gujarati born in Sindh, that doesn't make a Sindhi. Period. Thanks, Roshanh.

Edit: I have removed Danish Kaneria, a Marwari, and Muhammad Ali Jinnah, a Gujarati, from the montage of Sindhis. I don't own any pictures of Sindhis, and seeing as Wikipedia has a strict policy of photo copyrights, I cannot upload any picture. If anyone can perhaps add a few more Sindhis, some of whom can preferably be Indian, e.g. Karan Johar, Ram Jethmalani, the montage, in my book, will be complete! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roshanh (talk • contribs) 09:35, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Pending changes
This article is one of a number selected for the early stage of the trial of the Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Pending changes/Queue  are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.

The following request appears on that page:

Comments on the suitability of theis page for "Pending changes" would be appreciated.

Please update the Queue page as appropriate.

Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially

Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 00:02, 17 June 2010 (UTC).

Source needed?
Hello,

Thanks for notifying me of your interest in gaining a source for the fact I had placed on the Sindhi people article. Unfortunately, while a common fact of Sindhi people in Gujarat, this language change has not been properly examined; however; it is a certain fact of life - in urban regions of Gujarat (Ahmedabad, Jamnagar etc..), the Sindhi youth have switched to Gujarati and know extremely few words of the language, let alone being able to write it. Indeed, I wish more studies were done on this language shift.

While I cannot find another source for the language change to Gujarati, here is a writing from the website of the Sindhi Association of UK (SAUK) which comments:

Even after above stated steps taken by the Govt. of India, the decline of Sindhi language in India continued unabated.

I hope that you understand.

--92.8.198.159 (talk) 17:46, 3 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi. Thank you for explaining. I'm afraid that until this information is documented, we really can't host it at Wikipedia under our core content policies. Specifically, our policy against original research, which holds that we cannot publish content that is not supported by reliable, published sources. I've been looking around to see if I could find something, but so far I have not, though I have found a source to support the unfortunate language decline of Sindhi, here. I'll look a bit more. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 18:20, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Copyvio text should not be restored
On Sept 15, 2010, Sindhi seth made an extensive edit to this article. Moonriddengirl reverted that edit because at least some of it was WP:COPYVIO content.

Today, an editor at IP address 220.225.111.89 restored the copyvio version verbatim, with the edit summary "Please discuss before making any changes". It seems to me that the burden of discussion falls on the editor trying to reintroduce the problematic version, not only because it is an extremely large, all-at-once overhaul of the article, but also because the text apparently contains copyright violations that must be removed before it can be allowed on Wikipedia. I am undoing 220.225.111.89's edit now for these reasons. They are invited to discuss what they're trying to accomplish here. AtticusX (talk) 17:52, 1 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh, it looks like Lilac Soul got there first and undid 220.225.111.89's edit, for the same reason. AtticusX (talk) 17:56, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: Sind Through the Centuries: an Introduction to Sind, a Progressive Province of Pakistan (1975; Publicity and Publication Committee, Sind Through the Centuries Seminar, 1975) (this content was placed by User:AlphaGamma1991, a sockpuppet of serial copyright infringer User:Siddiqui). Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl (talk) 01:12, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Any connection with the Sindi people?
Is there any connection between the Sindhi, and the Sindi people of the Black Sea region in classical times, or is the similarity in name just a coincidence? Wardog (talk) 23:43, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Removal of Sindhudesh
User:Mar4d ,you have been removing stuff from the lead. Now, the lead has to be comprehensive and should summarize the article, itself, in detail. True, the "Sindhudesh" thing was not quite popular but definitely, it is not fringe. There even appears to be a template for the same. Moreover, these organisations do have websites of their own and K. R. Malkani has devoted considerable space to the Sindhudesh movement in his book on the history of Sindh. True, the Sindhudesh demand might not be supported by most Sindhis but it does have considerably powerful proponents including the late G. M. Syed and the Communist Party of Pakistan. Moreover, there is an article on Sindhudesh which itself proves that the movement is of considerable notability, atleast as much as Mangalorean regionalism if not more. Your allegation that it violates WP:UNDUE appears to be unfounded - if such a movement exists it surely needs to be mentioned in the lead for the sake of comprehensiveness; and then, you might yourself notice from my edits that I had not given undue weightage in the lead. Also, the language was neutral.- Ravi My Tea Kadai 11:22, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Sindhudesh is not going to be mentioned in the lead. At the most, it should have a small sentence somewhere in the body. It is not a popular movement, neither has it ever gained support as can be seen from the fact that it is not a major armed insurgency or resistance. It is also worth noting that out of eight nationalist parties in Sindh, none have ever been voted into power. That itself explains the notability of this issue. And one person does not make something notable: GM Syed was actually a Pakistan Movement activist before leaning towards Sindhi nationalism much later in his life. After his death, the concept and ideology died away and today you will only find it only in books or among a small minority of nationalists. To be honest, this movement is even less notable than much more notable movements in South Asia, such as Khalistan, Kashmir or Tamil nationalism. Mar4d (talk) 11:52, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * PS: The template you are referring to has nothing to do with "Sindhudesh". Mar4d (talk) 11:56, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Firstly, I do not understand what point you are trying to make here by those random comparisons (and coincidentally, or not, all of them appear to be in India)


 * * Tamil separatism - Are you referring to Sri Lankan Tamil nationalism here?
 * * Khalistan movement - The Khalistan movement was definitely more potent than the Sindhudesh, but if you consider the other to be dead, ironically, Khalistan movement has been dead for a longer time.


 * Comparisons aside, I feel that the Sindhudesh movement is definitely notable as there is an article for it. (How is the Sindhi nationalism template not related to Sindhudesh?) Perceptions might vary on the extent of notability, but I've already given my reasoning here - the Sindhudesh movement was included in the lead because the movement closely identifies itself with the Sindhi ethnic group (unlike Khalistan which envisages a state for Sikhs and not for Punjabi people, in general. The subject of Kashmiri nationalism is somewhat ambiguous - while some Kashmiri leaders have claimed that it is a regional movement and fights for the liberation of all Kashmiris, Kashmiri groups have repeatedly attacked people belonging to minority religions. Anyway, I am not averse to either of these being mentioned in the lead in Punjabi people and Kashmiri people articles, respectively) and since, it is an article on Sindhi people it needed to be mentioned.- Ravi My Tea Kadai 02:36, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Sindhi Hindus in Pakistan
There are a fairly large number of Sindhi Hindus in Pakistan. This is an unique case, considering the fact that in Punjab and Khyber Pakthunwa, the provinces worst affected by partition barely have any Hindus at all. But the case of Sindh is different and unique in Pakistan; though Sindh was also affected by Partition riots Hindus still form 6% of the total population of the province and Sindh is also the only province in Pakistan which has a substantial Hindu population. A paragraph on the demograhics and social issues of the people of Sindh definitely needs to be included in the lead section for the sake of comprehensiveness and this needs to be mentioned there.- Ravi My Tea Kadai 11:30, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Go ahead and add the said content in the body of the article. But you should be careful when adding anything in the lead and verify that it is WP:DUE, noteworthy and holds enough WP:WEIGHT to deserve a mention. And as far as "social issues" are concerned, could you clarify/provide sources to clarify what you mean? What social issues are you referring to? Mar4d (talk) 12:00, 11 March 2012 (UTC)


 * the introduction now implies that 6% of Sindhis in Pakistan are Hindu (in the second paragraph) and that 12.5% of Sindhis in Pakistan are Hindu (third paragraph). Does anyone know which of these is correct? 01 May 2014 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.36.38.240 (talk) 13:42, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Sindhi Hindus Section diluted and continually deleted
I've followed this page over the past 2 years, and I find it despicable that the Sindhi Hindu sections keep getting abolished.

Right now, there is no sub-section of the Exodus (at Partition), nor are there any details of where they took off to around the world, or current Hindus in Sindh.

My ancestors' history on Wikipedia has been reduced to two unintelligent quotes, recalling percentages of Hindus in the past.

Therefore, I do not request, I DEMAND that a new and protected article be created singularly about Hindu Sindhis, so that we collect true history and make it accessible to all who may be uninterested, free of political bastardisation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gimmejunkmail (talk • contribs) 00:26, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
 * What section has been deleted? Could you provide a diff, maybe we could look into it. By the way, there is an article on Sindhis in India, but I agree there should be a summary paragraph at least discussing the Sindhi Hindu community.  Mar4d  ( talk ) 01:39, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

NPOV in lead
It is a strange tone to read an article and hear about Muslims slaughtering people. It has the tone of an agenda. But I would not have a problem if it is balanced. The other issue is the ref (why so many of them), yet a quick review of Will Durant shows no mention of Sindhi people!!!!So are we WP:SYNTHNOT, adding facts and drawing radical statements? And I am always suspicious when i see that number of ref holding such a strong opinion. Some links have no content, so for something so controversial let us discuss some strong ref and verify the content.--Inayity (talk) 20:12, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
 * , supports the claim, Will Durant talks about the pakistan, not sindhi people, and the given sentence refers to pakistan's history than to sindhi people. Bladesmulti (talk) 03:57, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
 * If he is not discussing Sindhi ppl then put it in relavant article per my initial objections. it all fails wikipedia lead policy, and NPOv not to mention twisting and misuse of ref, please read WP:SYNTHNOT, dont rite a sentence ad throw any ref at the end. the ref do not match content.--Inayity (talk) 05:27, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Removed the rest. Bladesmulti (talk) 05:50, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Bladesmulti, Inayity, I'm sure the historians meant Sindhi ppl also when they mentioned Pakistan (Pakistan was after all created only in 1947), so we have to have that in the article to show how the locals (Afghans, Sindhis, Punjabis, Marathas etc.) were persecuted by muslim invaders. I see that Acidsnow has removed a lot of well referenced sentences and I may ask for some dispute resolution. You must read some of the articles by Francois Gautier to understand that successive Pakistani and even Indian Governments have been avoiding mentioning the 1,300 year old genocide in the Indian sub-continent in school History books, but I'm sure we can have them in this article, if the references are good, so that people should know history as it was. Please read the matter at http://www.islam-watch.org/historyofjihad/Jihad-against-Hindus-of-India-Pakistan-Bangladesh.htm and the wikipedia articles on Jayapala, Raja Dahir, persecution of Hindus etc.-Khabboos (talk) 14:45, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
 * THere is no need to read Islam watch, just as there is no need to read StormFront. RS only. --Inayity (talk) 16:53, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Khabboos, Thanks for your comment, but after all, the previous was changed by these 2 users(acidsnow, inayity) into positive statement, it seemed like Ummayad came to pakistan and every one converted to his religion. When it is mentioned, the evident genocide and forced conversions are 100% necessary to mention. Remember you can't exactly cite Islam-watch.org as a source, but you can cite the sources to which they are referring(since they have in that page), due to POV issues. But i have wholly removed that line already. You can contribute in the similar pages, that targets the persecution of various religions by the Muslims. I have this page added to watchlist already. If more people agree on the previous edition that is, then we can add the whole thing back. But most importantly we are referring to Sindhi people. Now i doubt if even sindhi people of Pakistan are allowed to follow the teachings of Jhulelal, Now i just checked his page, which had been vandalized by a Paki.tv, and it remains so, since october last year. Now if Sindhi people in pakistan have faced persecution for following jhulelal's teachings, it should be added, but I will need to look about it. Bladesmulti (talk) 17:18, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Well do not accuse me of making it positive, i just took out blatant pov pushing. If you state that people were forced, I am sure RS will do, but misusing sources will not do. In the body of the article there is space for this content, unless the genocide was comparable to Rwanda, Jews, etc to be notable enough discussed enough to be in the lead of an ethnic group. It would be strange to read Kikuyu people and the first line is about how Europeans forced them into Christianity and killed them, and chased them off the land. --Inayity (talk) 17:29, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
 * But still, adding anything related to conversion is POV pushing, if the article is about group and not religions. Actually this genocide is larger than Rwanda, or Jews, over 80 million deaths in whole region. So if you are to add the whole thing. Bladesmulti (talk) 17:35, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
 * It is not something I know about. I am sure forced conversions happened (let us here it from a NPOV) because it is controversial. I have no idea about Indian history to comment on the 80 million dead, but WW2 killed a lot more but you would not blame that on Christianity (so I dont know what happened in India). But I think it sounds like it belongs in an article on the History Of India. or Religion in India. I have never been in the business of glossing over Islam or Africa. But I dont like agenda pushers. RS, Balance and NPOV. But someone is adding ref from Jihad India, I mean...come on. If you write something with a balanced tone reflecting the ref then I want to learn, but when I see that anti-Islamic stuff everyone's backs just go up. --Inayity (talk) 17:40, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
 * For reason I removed whole para, anyways, the recent edits that I made, a large amount of personal opinions and Fringed materials have been removed. Bladesmulti (talk) 18:05, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Bladesmulti, you wrote, 'If more people agree on the previous edition that is, then we can add the whole thing back.' I believe that that version needs to be restored because it is a fact. Even in 1948, my grandfather had to flee Sindh to save himself and his families lives because of the riots by the muhajirs. For some time, General Yahya Khan indulged in a genocide and eventually, India had to get involved to liberate/create Bangladesh in 1971-72. Persecution of Hindus continues till date in Pakistan and I would like to see all that in this article. However, I want you to take the lead in being bold, as I am new here. Inayiti, the 80 million who were killed refers to all the Hindus of the Indian subcontinent, that is, Afghanistan, present day Pakistan and India; it is not just about modern India-Khabboos (talk) 14:25, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I see, however Persecution of Hindus is best place to add them. This article isn't. Bladesmulti (talk) 15:10, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Can you at least restore the article to what you wanted to?&mdash;Khabboos (talk) 16:00, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Can't, got 2 users disagreeing, Acidsnow, and Inayiti, for legible reasons anyway. Bladesmulti (talk) 16:20, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

How are Sindhis related to Kashmiri people ?
One can argue that Sindhis are related to Kashmiris as people's of the Indian subcontinent/South Asia. However, then Sindhis would also be related to Gujaratis, Tamils and Bengalis. One would think that related ethnic groups are the most proximate ethnic, linguistic and cultural groups. I dont see how the Kashmiris are more proximate to the Sindhis than say, Gujaratis on any of those counts. Sindhis speak a North-Western Indo-Aryan language, while Kashmiris speak a Dardic language. Cuisine, dress and marriage customs also dont show any striking similarities. Therefore, unless someone can produce a reliable reference that links these groups strongly, I am removing Kashmiri people from the list of related peoples. I am invariant under co-ordinate transformations (talk) 23:09, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 5 May 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved. Number   5  7  13:38, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Sindhi people → Sindhis – "Sindhis" is by far the WP:COMMONNAME for these people per Ngram. "Sindhis" is an unambiguous and plural demonym. Per WP:ETHNICGROUP. And it is more WP:CONCISE than "Sindhi people". Per Koreans, Pashtuns, Punjabis, Germans, Swedes, Russians, Serbians, and many other titles of similar articles. Khestwol (talk) 07:20, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Support per nom GregKaye 10:18, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * SUPPORT per above. Khestwol (talk) 11:13, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Support – The proposed title is more WP:CONCISE and natural. RGloucester  — ☎ 13:05, 5 May 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Canada?
In the article it states that Sindhi is the fourth most-spoken language in Canada. According to the 2011 Census data, though, Sindhi doesn't even show up in the topology. The most-listed mother tongues were English, French, Punjabi, Chineses (not otherwise specified), Spanish, Italian, German, Cantonese, Tagalog, Arabic, Mandarin, Portuguese, Polish, Urdu, etc. Sindhi as a mother tongue in Canada were less than 100,000 people, at least as per census data. For data on those who spoke Sindhi, the data showed even lower amounts. It was even listed lower than other non-comon languages, such as Malayalam, Pashto or Akan (Twi). Are there references that could be cited to support the statement that it is the fourth most-spoken language in Canada? Or perhaps it was meant to say that the fourth-highest concentration of Sindhi speakers outside the subcontinent was in Canada? In which case, might I suggest that the text be reworded and, again, references be cited?

"Sindhi"
The use and primary topic of Sindhi is under discussion, see talk:Sindhi language -- 67.70.32.20 (talk) 04:39, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Recent changes
Please discuss your changes here. There are multiple issues with it from unsourced additions, to adding a notable list where an article already exists to removal of existing content. Discuss, gain consensus and then update. Adamgerber80 (talk) 20:21, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 February 2019
Now google also support Sindhi language Junaidali54 (talk) 05:57, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: I don't think that is relevant on this particular article. Maybe on Sindhi language, if you can provide a source. NiciVampireHeart 13:09, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Mirbahar into Sindhi
A number of Sindhi tribes have stub articles with no or few references. They can likely be merged here or into a Sindhi tribes article. —Ost (talk) 17:12, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Most are likely notable, some probably aren't. There really isn't much to merge, as many of them are at present unsourced. The trouble with these articles is that people expand them with bad content (unsourced, non-neutral or unreliably sourced), then editors pare them down to single-line stubs, then other people come around with more bad content and the cycle goes on. Generally, a lot of work will be needed: digging up sources and expanding, and also presumably sending a few for deletion. In the absence of volunteers to get that done, having a bunch of micro-stubs is probably the lesser evil among the available options. – Uanfala (talk) 17:49, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

"Numerio" listed at Redirects for discussion
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Numerio. The discussion will occur at Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 November 23 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Soumya-8974 (he) talk contribs subpages 17:58, 23 November 2020 (UTC)