Talk:Sino-Indian War/Archive 3

NPOV
I was just reading through this article and it feels like it was written by a bureaucrat in the Ministry of History or something in India. Various little snippets of Indian heroism completely irrelevant to the strategy and/or progression of the conflict is peppered throughout. Someone should fix this as it also makes this article overly long and dreary to read. -anonymous dude who's not chinese nor indian

What some users want to cover up

 * It was the indian government who took the initiatives to break the status quo by the forward policy.
 * It was the Indian troops who took the first attack in the disputable zone,while some users just want to neglect it or deny it.
 * It was the Indian government who didn't want to solve it by diplomatic methods

All I had edited are  deliberately removed for demonstrating the indian who suffered while chinese were invaders. It was Lying by omission or mislead these users want to convince the readers that chinese were invaders while indians were peace goers.But in reality,It was the indian who were more provocative and the 1962 chinese offence was just the chiense preemptive war to counterweight.--Ksyrie 10:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Please provide sources. India's forward policy was in response to Chinese advances in Aksai Chin. India wanted to cut of their resource supply and thus force them to retreat back into Chinese territory. Traing 22:02, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Blaming the forward policy is an arguement Maxwell came up with long after the war was over. At the time, China didn't blame India. They said it all the fault of the "imperialistic" McMahon Line. For India, it was only the legal boundary which was non-negotiable. IMO, negotiations on the legal boundary would have been a waste of time since the two sides are so far apart on this issue. But there was plenty of diplomatic activity concerning the line of actual control, no man's lands, etc. When Nehru told parliament in 1959 about the road through Aksai Chin, he said it wasn't worth fighting for. Kauffner 04:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I doubt whether the Aksai Chin is within the chinese claimed border or indian claimed border.And aksai chin seems to be far from the either the line of actual control or McMahon Line.--Ksyrie 09:09, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

New list of unexplained deletions by Traing

 * 1) "They entered parts of Indian administered regions and much angered the Indians in doing so. Of course, they did not believe they were intruding upon Indian territory. " Traing deleted the second sentence, even though the Calvin source says clearly says they did not believe themselves to be intruding on Indian territory. On the other hand, when discussing Indian troops moving past the McMahon line, Traing inserted this very line in, "[the Indian commander], of course, did not believe he was intruding on Chinese territory." More than a little biased, I would say, since the deletion of the first and insertion of the second come from the same editor.
 * 2) Deleted all the italicized parts. "One of the major factors leading up to China's eventual conflicts with India troops was India's stance on Tibet. There was "a perceived need to punish and end perceived Indian efforts to undermine Chinese control of Tibet, Indian efforts which were perceived as having the objective of restoring the pre-1949 status quo ante of Tibet" The other was "a perceived need to punish and end perceived Indian aggression against Chinese territory along the border. John W. Garver argues that the first perception was incorrect based on the state of the Indian military and polity in the 1960s, it was, nevertheless a major reason for China's going to war. However, he argues the second perception to be largely accurate. " The author gives two reasons that China entered the war. Traing quotes the first, as well as the author's conclusions on it, but is unwilling to let me quote the second. This kind of selective quoting shows bias.
 * 3) Traing changed altered this paragraph (deleting most of the information) yet again. "Zhou had first given the ceasefire announcement to Indian charge d'affaires on November 19, (before India's request for United States air strikes) but New Delhi did not recieve it until 24 hours later. The aircraft carrier was ordered back after the ceasefire. Chinese troops still engaged in some battle with retreating Indian troops, but for the most part the ceasefire signalled an end to the fighting. The United States Air Force flew in supplies to India in November 1962, but neither side wished to continue hostilities." His first excuse for deleting it was that it should be covered in the ceasefire section. I moved it to the ceasefire section, but he still deleted it. The book says that Zhou sent the message on Nov 19, and Nehru recieved it 24 hours later. 24 hours after the 19th is Nov 20. Simple math, right? Traing changes to date to indicate that Nehru recieved it on the 22, 3 days later, and deleted the section indicating that Zhou's ceasefire came before the request for an aircraft carrier. Which is misleading, since it alters the ceasefire date, and reorders the events to indicate that the US sent forces (without Nehru's request), and prepared to bomb, and only then the ceasefire was announced 3 days after the request for an aircraft carrier. This is false and misleading.
 * 4) " China since withdrew its claim from part of NEFA (Sikkim and Assam) and also has silenced its claims over most of Arunachal Pradesh apart from Tawang. This is controversial, as this means the intrusion within these regions were completely unjustified during the war. " I indicated above exactly how misleading and misquoted this was. The neither link says this, and in fact, indicate the opposite, and even Traing admits the second sentence violates Wiki policy. He restored it again.
 * 5) "According to a study published by the United States Marine Corps, western nations at the time regarded China as an aggressor in the China-India border war, and the war as part of a monolithic communist objective for a world dictatorship of the proletariat. (However, the study itself concludes that Chinese actions show a "pattern of conservative aims and limited objectives, rather than expansionism" and that "stubbornness and India's aggressive forward policy resulted in armed conflict." )" Traing deleted the italicized parts. He's willing to quote certain parts of the book, and some of its conclusions, but not others. Again, bias.
 * 6) "In 1984, squads of Indian soldiers began actively patrolling the dispute area and set up an observation post for the summer in Sumdorong Cha Valley. The Indian team left the area before the winter." Traing deleted this again, without explanation. --Yuje 22:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I would appreciate it if you let me complete my editing before accusing. Much of what you have said, I already fixed some of your issues.
 * Fixed already. You should've waited till my editing was over.
 * Fixed already. You should've waited till my editing was over and checked the more recent diff.
 * Calvin says the ceasefire was declared by Zhou on November 21.
 * Fixed already. You should've waited till my editing was over.
 * I request you to reword it and fit it in better with the prose. To have all that randomly in brackets just doesn't work out.
 * Unsourced.
 * Traing 22:55, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * "In 1984, squads of Indian soldiers began actively patrolling the dispute area and set up an observation post for the summer in Sumdorong Cha Valley. The Indian team left the area before the winter." This is given in the Noorani source, which is cited there in the same paragraph.
 * For the rest, I'll give you some time to finish your changes before parsing them again. --Yuje 23:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

More deceptive and misleading use of cites
Traing added this line, "While most nations did not view China favourable for this war, Pakistan appreciated China aggression in the lands of old enemy India.", and cited (J Hanhimaki The Flawed Architect: Henry Kissinger and American Foreign Policy).

Given his previous misquotes, I had cause for suspicion, correctly, as it turns out. When I pressed him, it turns out he doesn't actually have a cite from the book.

Traing said, "I used the source from it's use in Indo-Pakistani War of 1971. So no, I don't possess the book, but if you see that article it draws the same facts from the book as I have written here. You may want to ask over there for a quote."

Hanhimaki was never actually cited in the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 article, only listed as "further reading", and Traing says he never even read the book before. In other words, he made up the claim, and then added a cite (which he never even bothered reading) to justify it afterwards. This line is leaving the article immediately unless he provides an actual quotation from the source showing what it says. --Yuje 03:37, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I was quite sure it was but turns out it wasn't. Sincerely sorry about that, this is the source for the paragraph from Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 which says that Pakistan expected Chinese intervention. For the paragraph you have shown above, what exactly is the problem? Pakistan supported China, Pakistan's old enemy is India.


 * Pakistan expected China Traing 04:37, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Where does it say anywhere within that paragraph that "Pakistan appreciated China aggression in the lands of old enemy India"? The sentence also presupposes two points in dispute 1)that China was aggressive in the first place, that the disputed lands were disputedly Indian. It's like me saying, "Yuje fully supports Traing's wifebeating." It presupposes the two points that Traing 1)has a wife and 2)beats this wife, without having proved it in the first place. --Yuje 09:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * What do you dispute? That Pakistan supported China or that Pakistan's old enemy is India? Traing 07:49, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I dispute the neutrality of the assertion as fact that China was the aggressor. I also dispute that the war was supported by Pakistan. Your Hanhimaki cite turned out to be fake, and the second one says nothing of Pakistan's position in the Sino-Indian War. The Dobell source, which you misquoted, as I highlighted below, shows that Pakistan actually felt threatened, as the war meant western aid to India. --Yuje 10:02, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The text I propose says "While Western nations did not view China favourable for this war, Pakistan, which has a turbulent relationship with India after the Indian partition, improved it's relations with China after the war. ". I don't know how you have a problem with that. Traing 23:35, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Neville Maxwell's China's India War??
Traing, I noticed you have made a lot of unnecessary and biased editing, including some simple distortion of fact. How could you change Neville Maxwell's book title from India's China War to China's India War. I respect everyone has their own view, politically and nationally, or what ever, but make sure when you are editing the text, you are no longer just an Idian or a Chinese, you are editor in a strictly neutral point of view. This is called professionalism.


 * Neville Maxwell's China's India War

Ningye 03:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I did not do that, it must have been someone else that edited during my edits or something like that. Sorry about that. Traing 03:25, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

For the last time, stop making up claims from cites

 * Traing: "The war begun on 10 October". Where does the Calvin book say this? Give the exact quote.
 * Here's my source. (India: A Year of Stability and Change, Ralph J. Retzlaff, Asian Survey, Vol. 3, No. 2, A Survey of Asia in 1962: Part II. (Feb., 1963), pp. 96-106.) It says, "On October 20 China mounted major attacks in hot11 Laclakh and NEFA and the undeclared war began."
 * Calvin: "The serious fighting of the 1962 China-India Border War extended from October 10, 1962, until November 20, 1962. " Traing 06:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It doesn't make sense,he said serious fighting took occur from october 10,it's ture,but the serious fighting doesn't mean the start of war.It's only the start of this serious fighting.I will appreciate the June,the day the first conflict to be the start of this war.--Ksyrie 09:12, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Traing: "New Delhi received the ceasefire letter 24 hours later, on November 22."(ref name = "Calvin")
 * Calvin book: "Dramatically, on November 20th, Chou Enlai publically announced a ceasefire. Actually, Chou had given the details of the ceasefire to the Indian charge d'affaires in Peking on the evening of November 19th ('before India's request for United States air strikes), but New Delhi did not receive the report for over 24 hours." No matter how you add, India never recieved the ceasefire on Nov 22. Traing moved the dates around so that it looks like China declared a ceasefire after Nehru requested US assistance.
 * Ah yes, I was mistaken, Zhou said the ceasefire would begin on November 21, OK. Traing 06:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * He still reverts back this this very same inaccurate version. Geez. Stop reverting to your own version (ignoring all the additions of other users along the way) and then selectively adding in only bits and pieces of other's edits only when you're caught making false statements, or misquoting sources.
 * Traing: "China kept the territory which they had captured in Aksai Chin but returned all the territory from the North East Frontier Agencyref name="Calvin"/)."
 * Calvin book, "Chou had simply restated the compromise that he had been offering for over three years:  India could keep the disputed territory north to the McMahon Line in NEFA, but China would keep the disputed territory in Aksai Chin."
 * This map shows China controlled the area before the start of the war.
 * I don't understand your issue with saying that China took over the territory during the war! Disputed and captured aren't antonyms!
 * The map shows that they controlled the territory on September 1962 before the war. --Yuje 07:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * That doesn't address my comment above. Traing 07:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Your edit says China captured the Aksai Chin territory during the war. The map clearly shows that China occupied those areas before the war (and thus, weren't "captured"), and that the additional areas in the Aksai Chin that they did occupy during the war, they returned afterwards. --Yuje 09:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Traing: "China is treated as the aggressor in the China-India border war, and the war was part of a monolithic communist objective for a world dictatorship of the proletariat" (ref name = "Calvin")
 * It said Monolithic world conquest objective in Calvin and I reworded it.
 * Traing: "While most nations did not view China favourable for this war," (no source)
 * Calvin book: "Western nations, especially the United States, were already suspicious of Chinese attitudes, motives and actions; [..] These western nations, including a suspicious United States, appeared to minimize, or not fully to understand, the China-India dispute background. [..] These same nations saw China's goals as monolithic intent on world conquest, and clearly viewed China as the aggressor in the Border War."
 * Edit Traing deleted: "According to a study published by James Calvin from the United States Marine Corps, western nations at the time viewed China as an aggressor during the China-India border war, and the war as part of a monolithic communist objective for a world dictatorship of the proletariat"
 * I don't remember making that edit but I'll fix it anyway. Traing 06:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * But you didn't. You reverted back to this misquoted version. --Yuje 10:38, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Traing: "Pakistan, which has a turbulent relationship with India after the Indian partition, was more appreciative of China's war against India.(Trairef name="Dobell")"
 * Dobell: "In late autumn, however, the undeclared Sino-Indian War and the Western reaction to it heightened tension in Pakistan considerably."
 * Dobell: "[Mohammed Ali] indicated that any aid [from Western nations to India] should be considered only in relation to existing tensions and that the Kashmir dispute should be settled before measures were taken which might prolong the Sino-Indian conflict." I doubt Traing even bothered to read the Dobell source. The article says that the war shook Pakistan because it meant western aid to India, its nemesis, while Traing claims Pakistan appreciated this war.
 * Rworded. Traing 06:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Traing: "China since withdrew its claim from part of NEFA (Sikkim and Assam) and also has quitened its claims over most of Arunachal Pradesh apart from Tawang." (ref name = "IPCS")
 * IPCS: "With the Indian parliament resolution in 1994 to include the POK areas in their claims, the Chinese position has also changed slightly. The Indian PM's stated commitment to recover the Shaksgam valley led to hardening of the Chinese stand and after exchanging maps of the Middle sector there has been no progress in the process till date. However, from June 2003 China agreed that it had only 14 land neighbors instead of the earlier claim of 15 (the claim on Sikkim was dropped and its accession to India was recognized)." China never claimed Sikkim as part of NEFA, it just never recognized India's annexation of it.
 * Chinese ambassador Sun Yuxi : "In our position, the whole of the state of Arunachal Pradesh is Chinese territory. And Tawang is only one of the places in it. We are claiming all of that. That is our position".
 * I already fixed that I thought... Traing 06:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * One of Traing's earlier edits: "Zhou was adamant to launch a large-scale attack on India which would finally close the war and put the PLA in a strong position, thus it took only hours for the Chinese to resume attacks on Aksai Chin and NEFA.(ref name="Calvin"/)
 * Here is the Calvin book. I challenge anyone to find where the book actually says this.

See also above section, where Traing simply made up statements and then put a random book name to them. He kept evading when I asked for the actual quotes, until finally admitting he never even read the source. I'd advise all editors to scrutinize Traing's edits closely, because of his frequent misquotes and misattributions, and sometimes, even outright lying. From his edit history, it looks like his account was made just to edit this page alone, and he doesn't seem to be above using questionable edits.--Yuje 05:47, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I got involved on this page and want to follow one project at a time. Traing 06:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok,just take a look at what the Traing had written,s/he is a sly fox,by means of omission or misleading or distortion',s/he just wanted to give the readers the impression the Indians were totally innocents good boys.--Ksyrie 09:49, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I had to go after writing that comment above so I didn't fix the ceasefire date. Sorry about that. Traing 23:30, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yep. Traing has made countless bad edits. Only when I catch him on it does he promise to fix them. And then after saying he would fix them, he always inevitably reverts back to this old versions. See his reverts


 * Notice how he never bothers explaining or justifying his multiple deletions. I specifically have to call him on them one by one and expose them systematically before he acknowledges them and then promises to fix them (and then doesn't, and reverts back to his own version in the next round). Traing needs to start justifying his deletions before he makes them, instead consntatly reverting back to his own version and only selectively restoring edits when he gets caught in the act. --Yuje 01:56, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Yuje, you know full well that after I revert it I spend large amounts of time trying to accomodate any worthy edits you may have made which I should include. I admit I was being a deceptive newbie at the start of my Wikipedia time. But your attempt to create random policies against me is insulting and I think against the spirit of Wikipedia. an example of me accomodating your concerns after reverting. If you take a simple look at the history, you will see that I have hardly ever reverted and not edited directly after a revert. I have addressed your concerns on the talk page and now that you have none left you decided to try and impose a restriction-rule on my edits. Traing 06:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Consensus. Since many, if not most of your edits have been controversial and misleading, you need to build concensus with other editors first. Your current way is to simply revert to your own version, without justify losing all the deletes on the way, and not explaining any new edits, even though many of them are controversial. If I hadn't went and double-checked every single one of your edits for deceptions, they might have stood on the current page. Given this, many of your edits look suspicious and POV, so to gain concensus, you should, by Wikipedia policy, explain and clearly justify them on the talk page. --Yuje 06:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

It that line McMahon Line legal?
Indian claim the legal border line,the McMahon Line seemed not so legal.Some british just drawed a line and didn't get any valid agreement or treaty.And the clever indian wanted to repeat what the englishman had done before.--Ksyrie 09:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It's not at all surprising you hold those views. Traing 23:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * China recognizes the McMahon Line as a "Line of Actual Control," but not as a legal boundary. The difference doesn't seem to have any practical significance. It's just a silly word game, "a distinction without a difference," as the lawyers say. The 1962 war was about Mao's need to whup someone so that everyone would know he was still the man even after Liu humiliated him. There are some real Sino-Indian boundary disputes involving bits of territory like Thagla Ridge or Kongka Pass. But the McMahon Line issue is bogus -- it doesn't involve any actual territory. Kauffner 19:08, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

"Peace process" conclusion?
I found Traing's edition of the peace process arrives to a conclusion of his own. There is no neutral material to back it up.

For example, "China remains fairly unilateral in their thinking. ". What do you mean 'fairly'. When, Where and What did China do as referred in this paragraph? Reference IPCS is not found and is it a neutral source that can be verified independently?

Another example, "Over the past two years, Chinese military forces have increased patrolling of the Chumar region, an area not in dispute.". First, when is the past two years. Please always spell out at which date, or from when to when, what has happened. Secondly, where is Chumar or Chumar region? Is there any proof from Chinese source that they concede it to India or the area is not in dispute? From my understanding, it's part of vague concept of LAC which was and is disputed by both sides.

Please edit and remove those inaccurate claims.

128.231.88.4 18:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I can access the IPCS source just fine. Traing 23:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Yuje
Yuje, what do you want???? You cannot place restrictions on me for every one of my edits. I am citing directly from internet-based references. WHAT is your problem??? Your comment that I should have to go to the talk page for consensus before editing is against the spirit of Wikipedia, anon IPs that conform to your POV have more rights than a logged in user like me who is getting to know Wikipedia slowly. You cannot undermine the spirit of Wikipedia. Traing 06:51, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * My problem? You're not simply adding new sources. You're reverting and deleting old information, ignoring other's edits on the way. And I and a few other users regard a great many of your edits as controversial, and policy is that you should try to achieve Concensus, so you should try going and explaining and justifying your edits and discuss them. So far, you have never explained any reverts or deletions. --Yuje 07:04, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * What's all that above? Also, can you please allow me to revert you and then make some edits and then revert back and that is the version I support. Thanks. Traing 07:11, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Yuje has broken a REAL Wikipedia policy
Yuje has broken the 3RR policy, which is stopping me from reverting Yuje's version (as that'll mean I break it to). But in a show of goodwill, I will not report you and let your edits stand for now, I hope you pay attention to real Wikipedia policies next time before making up your own random restrictions. Traing 06:58, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Didn't realize I broke the 3RR rule, but if I did, then so did you, since each my of edits was itself reverted by you, and you start all your edits with a revert. --Yuje 07:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * No, see our last 4 reverts each:
 * 06:46, 4 April 2007 Y
 * 06:42, 4 April 2007 T
 * 06:40, 4 April 2007 Y
 * 06:38, 4 April 2007 T
 * 01:44, 4 April 2007 Y
 * 23:10, 3 April 2007 T
 * 10:49, 3 April 2007 Y
 * 06:12, 3 April 2007 T
 * And two of my reverts haven't strictly been reverts, as one of them had about 30 edits following it in which I accomodated many of the edits in your version and added more. Traing 07:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Yuje, explain these then:
Yuje, you claim to explain all your edits, so start explaining:
 * 1) Replaced date= October 10 &mdash; November 21, 1962 with date= October 20 &mdash; November 21, 1962. POV-pushing??? Surely not.
 * 2) Deleted "China's policy on Tibet did much to heighten the conflict and tensions between the two nations. The perceptions of India as a capitalist expansionist body intent on the independence of Tibet to create a buffer zone between India proper and China was fundamentally erroneous. The negative rhetoric led to what Zhou himself called the Sino-Indian conflict. Because of these false fears, China treated every next move from India in the 1960s with suspicion and the Indian Forward Policy sealed Chinese suspicions of Indian expansionism and led to their decision for war with India. "
 * 3) Deleted "Garver argues that one of the major factors leading to China's decision for war with India was a common tendency of humans "to attribute others behavior to interior motivations, while attributing their own behavior to situational factors." . Studies from China published in the 1990s confirmed that the root cause for China going to war with India was the perceived aggression in Tibet, with the forward policy simply catalyzing the aggressive Chinese reaction. "
 * 4) Deleted "China kept the territory which they had affirmed total control of in Aksai Chin but returned all the territory captured from the North East Frontier Agency . China since withdrew its claim from part of NEFA (Sikkim and Assam). Over the following months, vehicles and prisoners of war were returned by both sides unconditionally as a show of goodwill. "
 * 5) Deleted "The CIA had already begun operations in bringing about change in Tibet. " which is a fact which provides context.
 * 6) Replaced "Since 2004, Chinese military forces have increased patrolling of the Chumar region, which is not even claimed by China. " to Over the past two years, Chinese military forces have increased patrolling of the Chumar region, an area not in dispute.
 * Other changes we have already discussed above. Traing 07:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I reverted because you reverted prior to the start of your editting, deleting all the information added subsequent to your last edit. This is extremely disrepectful to other editors, to start all your series of edits with reverts, and only afterwards selectively reinserting them only when I expose your deletions. Since many of your previous edits have included falsified cites, I asked you to list your edits and sources/reasons first before adding them, which you're doing now, and I appreciate. --Yuje 08:23, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

And you need to explain these
Much as I mentioned on my edit summaries as well as on this talk page, your additions aren't just mere additions, you revert, then make your additions, losing information in the process. Nothing stops you from simply making your edits to the current version of the page, but you delete all edits after yours, and then add your new edits on top of old versions of the page. In doing so, you never bother to explain or justify your deletions. --Yuje 07:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Deletion of these lines: "On October 9th, General Kaul ordered General John Dalvi, Commander of the Seventh Brigade, to take Yumtso La Pass. However, Dalvi argued that the forces lacked the necessary supplies and Kaul instead sent a fifty-man patrol . These 50 Indian troops were met by an emplaced Chinese position of some 1,000 soldiers. "
 * 2) "The Chinese side, although in a militarily advantageous position, thus had strong strategic reasons to contain and conclude the conflict as quickly as possible.{{fact}" Still no source and deletion of citation tag.
 * 3) "Zhou was adamant to launch a large-scale attack on India which would finally close the war and put the PLA in a strong position, thus it took only hours for the Chinese to resume attacks on Aksai Chin and NEFA" Nowhere in the book does it say this. I asked for a book cite. You didn't answer, but restored again.
 * 4) Deletion of multiple lines from this paragraph. "Zhou had first given the ceasefire announcement to Indian charge d'affaires on November 19, (before India's request for United States air strikes) but New Delhi did not recieve it until 24 hours later. The aircraft carrier was ordered back after the ceasefire. Chinese troops still engaged in some battle with retreating Indian troops who had not recieved the ceasefire order and fired upon them, but for the most part the ceasefire signalled an end to the fighting. The United States Air Force flew in supplies to India in November 1962, but neither side wished to continue hostilities."
 * 5) Deletion of external link and statistics "The PLA withdrew to the Line of Actual Control, which China had occupied before the war (map) and on which it staked its diplomatic claim (keeping the Aksai Chin, which comprised 32% of the disputed territory and returning North East Frontier Agency, which comprised 68%) ."
 * 6) Still no source, deletion of citation tag, "Since then, the Chinese government have tried to reduce the negative light in which they were perceived as a result of their aggression."
 * 7) Deletion of italicized parts. In 1972, Neville Maxwell a British journalist and historian, wrote a controversial book which was highly critical of Indian Government; titled "India's China War", which was banned in India.
 * 8) Deletion of book listings.

Done. Traing 07:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) I did not delete, I reworded to make it a simpler and more straightforward read.
 * 2) Will delete.
 * 3) It says in the Calvin book that fighting resumed hours later in Aksai Chin and NEFA.
 * 4) I compressed it, did not delete lines, I reworded it.
 * 5) It's not good article writing to have external links in the middle of the text. So I reworded it.
 * 6) Put two and two together! You don't need to copy everything from a source, that's plagiarism (something which you're edits have included in the past). China looks bad in worldview - Zhou talks to Nixon about it - China doesn't look so bad in worldview. It is simply logic.
 * 7) Making things up?? My version which I have stored shows my inclusion of this.
 * 8) Making things up again...

--Yuje 08:17, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) You didn't "reword" anything. Your edit was just a revert, the same paragraph with those lines deleted.
 * 2) Zhou was adamant to launch a large-scale attack on India which would finally close the war. Where's the source for this? It never says this in the Calvin book? I asked you multiple times, and you never provided a source, yet keep adding it back.
 * 3) Your edit is wrong. The Calvin book never says the ceasefire was initiated to avoid airstrikes, the Garver source says the ceasefire was part of the operation planning even before the war started. You also deleted mention of that the ceasefire occured chronologically before the Indian request. You also kept the mention of Chinese troops engaging Indians in battle, but deleted the mentions that it was because some Indians didn't recieve the ceasefire and thus kept fighting. Your version doesn't contain any information or rewording, only deleted information, plus the sentence about the ceasefire undertaken to avoid airstrikes, which the Calvin book doesn't support.
 * 4) You're placing undue emphasis on a conversation. Using that same logic of "putting two and two together", I can also insert the statement, "The government of India has made efforts to portray itself as a victim and China as an aggressor.", based on their published Official history.
 * 5) Diff
 * 6) Diff


 * Yes, I did reword it my version bears the text. "On October 9th, Kaul and General Dalvi agreed to send a patrol of 50 soldiers to Yumtso La Pass in the North East Frontier Agency"
 * Oh, so that's the issue. Well I think Chinese actions in quick attacks and then the calling of a unilateral ceasefire indicated that they wanted the war to be over with as soon as possible.
 * I don't understand your parandoid interpretation of my edits. The dates have been inserted and all the line says is that America did not become militarily involved in the war because of the ceasefire!
 * It's not undue emphasis, it's one line on a conversation which was previously recounted in large quotes.
 * my version has fixed it.
 * [my version has fixed it.
 * Regards. Traing 23:24, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

--Yuje 14:55, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I reworded the whole section and expanded on the entire campaign. I think this point is moot now.
 * "Well I think Chinese actions in...." And that's the problem. No Original Research.
 * My "paranoid interpretation" of your edits comes from all the misquotes, fabrications, and POVs which I have listed above.
 * Zhou is just stating his government's official position, in a conversation. How is that "Since then, the Chinese government have tried to reduce the negative light in which they were perceived as a result of their aggression." Indian politicians have made official government statements numerous times as well. Would you characterize Indian politicians as making "rigorous diplomatic leapss" at downplaying Indian provcations as well?

RfC?
Alright guys... I was just passing by and noticed that this is starting to look like an edit war. Would you guys be amenable to filing a Request for Comment? &mdash;Umofomia 07:07, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The two main contributors are rapidly changing their opinions,unless they cann't make an agreement.--Ksyrie 20:13, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Changes
I'm logging off for now, but I still plan on expanding some more. But I'd appreciate if you don't disrupt my editting by reverting again, and "incorporating selected changes" before I'm done. --Yuje 14:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) "The Chinese government never commissioned an official report on the war." Where does Garver say this?
 * 2) "The first book-length analysis of the war from China which was allowed to be sold was published in 1998." Where does it say that Xu Yan's book was teh first?
 * 3) "On September 8, 1962, a 600-strong PLA unit launched an attack on one of the Indian posts at Dhola on the Thagla Ridge, just north of the McMahon Line" Calvin and Maxwell say it was actually a 60-man patrol, and that the Indian commander exaggerated. Calvin and Maxwell say they only settled into dominating positions, not attacking. Garver says this situation went for twelve days without any shooting. That's quite a poor attack if I ever saw one.
 * 4) For the patrol, the Yumtso La attack, the Dhola post, and the Thagla Ridge, I consolidated all of it into a seperate subsection, since all these events lead up to or are a part of Operation Leghorn, and all take plage on Thagla.
 * 5) Moved (and kept) Traing's edits on Chinese motives for war, and expanded using the Garver source.
 * 6) Incorporated Chinese and Indian views from the Indian and PLA histories, respectively. Since both of these are necessarily POV, when cited, they are quoted as "According to the official Indian history", etc.
 * 7) "China since withdrew its claim from part of NEFA (Sikkim and Assam). " China's claims on Sikkim aren't territorial. It never recognized India's 1975 annexation of Sikkim and regarded it as an occupied country until recently. Thus, the Sikkim claims have nothing to do with the Sino-Indian War, and didn't even originate until a decade after the war and I removed this section from the ceasefire section.


 * It says: "Chinese publications on the war themselves do not mention specific dates or events and use generalized terms" - this is on p 69.
 * p. 70
 * Change it, I can't say I added that information.
 * OK.
 * Thank-you
 * Is there a weblink for the Indian histories, so far it seems rather selective citing.
 * Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh have been the historical dispute-points between China and India. I don't have time to do full replies now. Traing 06:05, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Trade through border between China and India near Sikkim
Per BBC, China never acknowledged the India sovereignty to Sikkim, however, it did soften its position and may tacitly accept it. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3015840.stm

But it is more accurate not to overstate the fact as Traing states:


 * China has officially recognized Sikkim as part of India. Traing 00:34, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Please cite China official source. Don't revert my editing based on your POV. Ningye 02:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
 * IPCS!!!! Why waste my time, are these accepted? Traing 09:30, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

IPCS is fine, but it is not a neutral source. It's the think tank in India and aimed to facilitate and promote its agenda. See IPCS from their "about us" page http://www.ipcs.org/About_us.jsp

The fact it mentioned are OK, but its opinion can only be cited to help the reader to understand the arguments of the both sides and has to be marked as such one sided opinion.

Ningye 19:20, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreement on Sikkim is fine per CNN. I incorporate that with dates. Also correct some typos by Traing the third time like "triggerring" -> "triggering". Ningye 19:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Traing's POV and IPCS doesn't qualify as reliable source
Traing states the following based on this IPCS article. http://www.ipcs.org/newIpcsSeminars2.jsp?action=showView&kValue=2184

This IPCS article is more like a personal discussion and comments between Dr. Srikanth Kondapalli and Prof. Mira Sinha Bhattacharjea. Deleted.

Moreover, Traing stretches the fact even in the article. The article states only yet Traing's edit, "Since 2004, Chinese military forces have increased patrolling of the Chumar region, which is not even claimed by China." (emphasize added). Both parties regularly exchanges maps and diplomatic notes on the dispute. It's still an ongoing thing.

And "China has taken more steps towards border domination in recent years and China is in a more advantageous military positions at this point." (emphasize added) is clearly POV, which has no mention and facts backing it up at all. Please at least elaborate what the steps China has had taken and what advantageous military positions has had happened before this paragraph could be accepted.

Traing, please base your statement with neutral sources and facts. Not all articles are acceptable. The statement from one side is only admissible when it is helpful for the readers to understand both side's story. It needs to be clearly marked as such too. See WP:RS

Ningye 03:42, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Traing, you revert back my changes without any reasons. Can you learn to discuss the questions before posting controversial/misleading edits? Ningye 19:10, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

What the books say VS what Traing says (the sequel)

 * Traing says, "The motive for the Forward Policy was to cut off the supply routes for Chinese troops posted in NEFA and Aksai Chin"
 * Calvin says, "India's purpose was to pursue the forward policy to drive the Chinese out of any area New Delhi considered hers."
 * Calvin says, "In 1959, India initiated a forward policy of sending Indian troops and border patrols into disputed areas."
 * Calvin says, "The Indian strategy in early 1962 was to move behind Chinese posts in an attempt to cut off Chinese supplies.".
 * Traing says, "The Forward Policy was having success in cutting out supply lines of Chinese troops who had advanced South of the McMahon Line"
 * Calvin says, "The Indian strategy in early 1962 was to move behind Chinese posts in an attempt to cut off Chinese supplies. China's reaction any new Indian outpost, though, was usually to surround it with superior forces."
 * Traing writes, "Over the following months, vehicles and prisoners of war were returned by both sides unconditionally as a show of goodwill."
 * Calvin says, "The Chinese then began repatriating Indians through Bomdi La. The sick and wounded were returned during December, 1962.  Other prisoners of war were returned over the next six months."
 * Maxwell says, "Not one Chinese prisoner was taken by the Indians."

And that, boys and girls, is today's lesson in the importance of reading comprehension. It helps to actually read the sources one is allegedly citing.--Yuje 04:50, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * You said it yourself: "The Indian strategy in early 1962 was to move behind Chinese posts in an attempt to cut off Chinese supplies.". Meanwhile, the fact that you don't allow me to write about why the Forward Policy started and wrote three times about why it continued (becasue of it's initial success) in the article. Including twice in the same paragraph, makes me feel that your motives aren't all so noble as I originally thought. Traing 01:41, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Yuje attempting to mislead
He writes:
 * According to the official Indian history, a decision was made on September 9 to evict the Chinese from the southern part of the Thagla Ridge, by force, if necessary. Officers at the Indian Defense Ministry had expressed the concern that Indian maps showed Thag La as Chinese territory; they were told to ignore the maps . Two days later, it was decided that "all forward posts and patrols were given permission to fire on any armed Chinese who entered Indian territory". However, Nehru's directives to Defense Minister V.K. Krishna Menon were unclear, and the response, code named Operation LEGHORN, got underway only slowly. As the Chinese numbers were exaggerated to 600 instead of about 50 or 60, a battalion of 400 Punjab riflemen was sent to Dhola.

An analysis of the sources show that they are a mixture of the Indian official history and the anti-Indian history by Neville Maxwell. However they are all placed under the heading of "according to the Indian official history". Yuje says that we should attribute all comments to their authors, which I agree with, but his selectiveness seems misleading. Traing 22:50, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I usually only attribute subjective criteria, like motives or validity of claims to authors. Statements like, "Mao was afraid of this" or "Nehru wanted this" are subjective, because we can never know what they were actually thinking, and authors can only speculate or make educated guesses on them. So are things like "X country felt this way" or "X's claim was more legitimate". Simple statements of facts, such as "a battalion of 400 riflemen were sent", or "this minister said X" aren't subjective, because the numbers can actually be counted, and the statements of what someone said are recorded or written down. However, if you dispute that the facts are true, I don't mind listing the name of the source that says this.--Yuje 05:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


 * When you say something relating to the Indian thought process before the war is attributed to the Indian official history, it gains much more credibility. However, you mixed Maxwell and the Indian official history claims so that a sense came about that all the things that Maxwell said were Indian official history, when in fact he presents anything but the Indian side of events. Especially when you imply that the Indian official history states "Officers at the Indian Defense Ministry had expressed the concern that Indian maps showed Thag La as Chinese territory; they were told to ignore the maps"Traing 05:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I didn't "imply" that Indian official history stated that. The statement is clearly cited and unambiguosly cited to Maxwell. I mentioned the Indian history explicitly because that was the source of the decision. As I said, it's not a big deal, I've already added editted it to show that Maxwell says so. I don't see how it's much of a difference as what the defense ministers said are probably part of the official record and attributable to multiple sources anyhow. --Yuje 07:10, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Indian Official History
Yuje, can you prove that "History of the Conflict with China, 1962" is the official history presented by India. As I am able to find extremely little on the history compared to what less official sources present. I would like proof that it is the official history and would appreciate some sense of verifiability. Traing 23:32, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Garver lists "History of the Conflict with China" as India's official history. It's author, Athale, is credited in articles as author of the official history: . Sukumaran, whom you have cited numerous times, also names it as the official Indian history. The publisher of the book itself is listed in the book as "History Division, Ministry of Defence, Government of India". --Yuje 05:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

First booklength analysis
Garver says ""Sun Shao, Chen Zhibin, Ximalaya shan de xue, zhong yin zhanzheng shilu (Snows of the Himalaya mountains, the true record of the China-India war), Taiyuan: Bei Yue wenyi chubanshe, 1991, p. 95. As far as I can ascertain, this was China's first book-length study of the 1962 war. It was not a scholarly, but a popular work. It lacked reference notes and was written in an often-breezy style......."The book was banned shortly after its appearance, but this author was lucky enough to find the book on a street bookstall of a small city in Sichuan before it was banned."" The next book sourced by him is published in 1998. Anyway, your simply deletion of the sentence wasn't good enough. Traing 06:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The sentence wasn't accurate. The PLA history was published in 1994, Xu Yan's book in 1993, so it's clear that the first book allowed to be published wasn't in 1998. Garver doesn't specifically say when the first one after 1991 was published, and his claim of Sun Shao's book being first was uncertain, in any case. So the deleted sentence was inaccurate as far as the date goes, AND the author doesn't say what the actual one is. --Yuje 07:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Another Source
http://www.india-seminar.com/2006/562/562-vk-singh.htm

RESOLVING THE BOUNDARY DISPUTE V.K. Singh, Lt. General (retired), The Indian Army; former Director General Military Operations, Delhi

Just an FYI for both parties. Mikeslackenerny 07:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I'll take a look at it. --Yuje 07:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thankyou. Traing 23:17, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

"Violated" treaty

 * By signing the Simla Agreement with Tibet, the British had violated the Anglo-Russian Convention of 1907 This strikes me rather emotional word choice. It's hardly unusual for treaties to be inconsistent with each other. An Anglo-Russian convention is a bilateral matter between Britain and Russia. It's not reasonable for China to use it to claim rights. The 1907 convention was initially a concern for British, but it was renounced by Russia in 1917 and by Russia and Britain jointly in 1921. As for the Sino-British treaty, it was renounced when China invaded Tibet in 1910. So it wasn't even an issue at the time. Kauffner 02:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Can you elaborate on those two points? The source I used didn't mention them. Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yuje (talk • contribs) 03:41, 11 April 2007 (UTC).


 * I got it from Walt van Praag's book. Melvyn Goldstein's book has the original documents concerning Simla from the British archive. They mention only the Anglo-Russian treaty, never the Sino-British treaty. As far a source on the Web goes, you can check here: These arrangements [Simla] were in breach of the Anglo-Russian agreement of 1907, and a release to cover them was sought from Russia. This difficulty disappeared when in 1917, the Communist Government in Russia repudiated all the international engagements of the tsars, and when in 1921, the 1907 Treaty was cancelled by agreement. Kauffner 21:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Northeast Frontier Agency
This article isnot neutral.The indian name Northeast Frontier Agency and chinese name South Tibet should be treated in the same way,while some contributors deliberately deleting the chinese name South Tibet in the favour of their emotion.The war broke out in the disputable area,so all the name should be cited.--Ksyrie 02:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Calvin uses NEFA. Yuje even uses NEFA. Traing 06:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * The Chinese name for the area is South Tibet and the Indian name is Arunachal. Using the British colonial name NEFA may bring up some objections, but it's perhaps a bit more NPOV than picking either other name, since the British aren't involved in the dispute anymore. As for Aksai Chin, I believe that's a Uyghur name for the area that's used by both sides. --Yuje 21:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * NEFA was the official Indian name at the time of the war. The Indians changed the name to Arunachal later on. The British called it the North East Frontier Tract. Kauffner 04:54, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Long
The article is getting quite long, most of the information is pre-war, can anyone suggest a good name for a subarticle. Maybe something like Leadup to the Sino-Indian War. Traing 06:21, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

"Military of India" phrase in the intro
Gawd, that sounds clumsy. I guess it would not be wrong to say just "Indian Army", as the Air Force had at best only limited support role, and the Navy none atall.

Is there an Orbat available for this conflict?

And yeah, article is too long. Please make a seperate site for the lead up. (hehe easy for me to say.. you guys have done the excellent slog work)

Mikeslackenerny 09:25, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Sources (with pics!)
Guys, anyone had a look at http://sinoindianwar.50megs.com/ ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mikeslackenerny (talk • contribs) 09:45, 13 April 2007 (UTC).


 * They are Fair Use images that can be used with a proper Fair Use rationale and explanation. I've seen that website previously and may upload the images in the future after I have time to consider the Fair Use rationale for each image. Traing 04:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

The Chola Incident
Can someone remove the chola incident from the article because firstly, the source is biased and secondly, because the source does not exist anymore. Futher searches about the event reveal nothing except for the source quoted in the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.169.41.42 (talk) 11:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC).


 * I agree. The Chola Incident website doesn't list any of its references or citations, and when I asked Traing for other sources, at the talk for it, Talk:1967 Sino-Indian skirmish, he didn't provide anything except for a web forum and a list which gives nothing more than a name. Without independent confirmation, one basically has to take it on faith that the events as described by that webpage are factually accurate and didn't embroider up the facts.


 * Reliable_sources: "Exceptional claims should be supported by multiple credible and verifiable sources, especially with regard to historical events, politically-charged issues, and biographies of living people." If all that is given as the source for this incident is a single webpage that doesn't list any of its sources and references, then it doens't look to reliable. --Yuje 19:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)


 * BR is a reliable source on Indian military info with many of the articles on the site being written by those who knew first-hand of the incident or those who were at least involved with it. This is a minor incident which China does not speak of and thus one canot expect Chinese sources to balance the view. Traing 06:48, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The BR source doesn't give any references or citations. Not only are no Chinese sources listed, but no independent sources are listed either, nor any official sources, or news articles, or books, or anything else, just a single webpage which doesn't list its sources. Regardless of your personal feelings about the site, it certainly doesn't satisfy Wikipedia guidelines for reliable sources. --Yuje 12:22, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * How reliable bharat-rakshak is is partly the issue, but more importantly, why is there no other account of the chola incident.

Other sources than Bharat Rakshak for the 1967 Chola incident
1. http://faculty.winthrop.edu/haynese/india/medals/SSM65.html Nathula Chola (1967) - instituted on 8 May 1975 (as one of the original bars for the medal), this bar was awarded for service along the Sino-Indian border for one day of service in the border incidents at Nathula (11-16 September 1967) or Chola (1 October 1967) - air force personnel would qualify by one operational sortie during these periods

2.http://www.smallwars.quantico.usmc.mil/sw_past.asp Sino – Indian Chola Incident (1967)


 * The sources provide no information at all pertaining to the events of the Chola Incident. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.169.41.40 (talk) 13:03, 16 April 2007 (UTC).


 * Exactly.


 * All the non-BR sources only mention an "incident". No other sources gives any indication of the argument, bayonetting, or the fire fight, and the fact that this is given only by BR without references makes it extremeley suspicious. --Yuje 20:33, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Read the Chinese source I have posted. It mentions it all too.

Mikeslackenerny 08:16, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I apologise if I have missed the source...but could you post it again? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.169.41.37 (talk) 16:19, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

Aftermath: The Colombo Conference of Dec10-12 1962
See huge source: http://files.osa.ceu.hu/holdings/300/8/3/text/10-4-66.shtml

The Colombo Conference

Meanwhile at the invitation of the Government of Ceylon, Conference of six non-aligned nations -- Ceylon, Burma, Cambodia, Indonesia, Ghana and the UAR -- had met at Colombo on December 10 with the purpose of seeking ways and means of bringing the two angry giants together. The positions taken up by each participant appear to have differed widely. Thus Mrs Sirimavo Bandaranaike, the Prime Minister of Ceylon, referred in her opening speech to the danger that the dispute represented for India's policy of non-alignment and the UAR, whose strong support for the Indian cause Pandit Nehru has gratefully acknowledged, considered that there should be no territorial gains from military operations. General Ne Win of Burma and Prince Sihanouk of Cambodia, on the other hand, were chiefly resolved not to tread on anyone's toes.

However the Conference reached agreement on certain proposals and requested Mrs Bandaranaike to convey them in person to New Delhi and Peking. the proposals and subsequent clarifications made to India provided that in Ladakh China should, as she had offered, withdraw her forces 20 kilometres behind what he alleged to be the line of November 1959, while Indian forces might move right up to this line; the demilitarised zone should be administered by civilian posts of both sides. In the eastern sector both sides might move troops right up to the McMahon line except in the Chedong and Longju areas, where there was a difference of opinion about the former line of control; China and India should decide jointly what to do about these. As for the central sector, the Conference suggested that its problems would "be solved by peaceful means without resorting to force". These strictly temporary arrangements were designed merely to reduce tension and make it possible for the two sides to negotiate.

Chou En-lai informed Mrs. Bandaranaike on January 19 that China accepted the proposals "in principle", but he seemed inclined to make important reservations. In particular he wanted India to accept a suggestion he had previously made to Mr Nehru on December 31, that Indian troops keep out of the NEFA, while the Peking "People's Daily" of January 26 remarked pointedly that there were disputes over all sectors of the boundary." It seemed possible that China might lay serious claim not merely to parts

of Ladakh as previously, but to all or part of the NEFA, where she had made intensive propaganda during her period of occupation. In India the Lok Sabha accepted the proposals in toto on January 25; but Mr Nehru said that there could be no negotiations until China did the same.

Mikeslackenerny 10:51, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Chinese Casualties
This chinese link puts it at 1460

http://military.china.com/zh_cn/history4/62/20050317/12174607.html

From some Chinese book called "The red walls witness"

摘自《红墙见证录》，当代中国出版社尹家民

http://product.dangdang.com/product.aspx%3Fproduct_id%3D8776496

Book can be purchased above. Was published in 2004.

Mikeslackenerny 07:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

There is another source for Chinese casualties (and a recount of the 62 war, has lots of tidbits). 

This states, that according to 1 ebook, Deng Lifeng, Zhong-Yin Bianzheng, p. 10. Deng puts total Chinese casualties at approximately 2400.,the Chinese Army suffered:

722 Killed 1697 injured

Mikeslackenerny 07:49, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

So, as per the two sources, I will state Chinese Killed as 722-1460, injured at 1697.

OTOH, Chinese claims of Indian Casualties is almost the same as what India released:

Xu Yan, Zhong-Yin Bian Jie, P. 184. says ''According to PLA records from archives, Indian casualties during the war were 4,897 killed or wounded and 3,968 captured.''

PoW no. is right. Killed or Injured = (Indian Admission is 1383 killed + 1696 missing (presmed dead) + 1047 injured = 4126

This can be compared to Chinese claims (above) of 4897, so is approx right (And how exactly would the chinese know how many IA soldiers were wounded?)

Any objections anyone?

Mikeslackenerny 07:50, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Here is the original Chinese cite from the book above: http://big5.xinhuanet.com/gate/big5/news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2005-07/31/content_3279638.htm

''中印邊境自衛反擊作戰歷時1個月，我軍在西段清除了印軍全部人侵據點，在東段進到了非法的"麥線"以南靠近傳統習慣線附近地區. 作戰中，全殲印軍3個旅，基本殲滅印軍3個旅，另殲滅印軍4個旅各一部. 俘印軍第七旅旅長季 ·普·達爾維准將以下3900余人，擊斃印軍第六十二旅旅長霍希爾·辛格准將以下4800余人，總計殲滅入侵印軍8700余人. 繳獲各種火炮300余門、飛機5架、坦克10輛、汽車400輛、各種槍6300余支（挺），及其他武器彈藥和軍用物資. 在反擊作戰中，我軍共傷亡2400余人. ''

One can use a Chinese translation s/w to see above.

Mikeslackenerny 05:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Another source: ''Chinese border guards in the country, wiping out TNI three brigades (No. 7 Brigade, 62 Brigade, Artillery brigade 4), the basic Terminator TNI three brigades (112 Brigade, the 48th Brigade, 65 Brigade), Another Terminator TNI 5 Brigade, the 67th Brigade, the 114 Brigade, one of the 129 Brigade, 62 killed in Indian brigade Hexier Xingezhunjiang following 4885. 7 POW Indian brigade quarter Pronk Darfur Gen following 3,968 (of whom 26 field-grade officers, second lieutenants 29). 缴获：飞机5架、坦克9辆、汽车437辆、88mm加农炮13门、88mm榴弹炮36门、75mm山炮12门、106.7mm迫击炮27门、106mm无后座力炮6门、81mm迫击炮142门、51mm迫击炮144门、轻重机枪631挺、长短枪5,772支、火箭筒112具、枪榴弹发射器（掷弹筒）32具、枪弹4，120，591发、炮弹79，720发、手榴弹16，921枚、地雷14，848枚电台（报话机）520部，炮兵观测仪等其他器材735部（具）. Seized : five aircraft, nine tanks, 437 vehicles, 13 cannons, Dimensions, Dimensions howitzers 36, 12 75mm mountain artillery, mortar 106.7mm 27, 106 mm recoilless cannons 6. 142 81-mm mortars, 144 51mm mortars, light and heavy machine guns 631, the length of the gun 5, 772, 112 rocket-propelled grenades, grenade launchers (grenade launcher) 32, bullet 4,120,591 hair. issued 79,720 shells, 16,291 pieces of grenades, landmines 14,848 pieces of radio (portable radio transmitter) 520. artillery observation instruments, and other equipment 735 (with).

中国边防部队阵亡722人（其中军官82名、士兵640名），负伤1，697人（其中军官173名、士兵1，524名）消耗：炮弹22，976发、枪弹701，342发、手榴弹7，080枚、爆破筒64节、炸药2，050k9，喷火油料677L，损坏122mm榴弹炮1门、机枪18挺、长短枪81支、40mm火箭筒2具、电台（步话机）5部、汽车12台. Chinese border guards killed 722 people (82 of whom are officers, soldiers, 640), a wounded. 697 people (173 of whom are officers and 1,524 soldiers) consumption : 22976 artillery shells hair, Bullet 701,342 hair, 7,080 pieces of hand grenades, 64 blaster, explosives 2,050k9. guaranteed oil 677L, damaged a 122mm howitzer, 18 machine guns, 81 guns and rifles. two 40mm rocket launchers, radio (walkie-talkie) 5, 12 cars. ''

from http://bwl.top81.cn/war_cn/india/304.htm, 1962 Chinese border guards returned to the Indian Army weapons and equipment list (Graphic)

Mikeslackenerny 05:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Chinese take on Nathula and Chola
http://66.249.91.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://military.china.com/zh_cn/history2/06/11027560/20050712/12475305.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2Bsite:military.china.com%2B%25E4%25B8%25AD%25E5%258D%25B0%25E8%25BE%25B9%25E5%25A2%2583%25E6%2588%2598%25E4%25BA%2589%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1T4GFRC_enAU204AU204

Would also like China and India since 1967, the Nathula Pass Pass Zhuola, and the conflict ________________________________________ Http://military.china.com 2005-07-12 10:16 : 51 A large small --

After 1963, China's armed forces in the China-India border two things retreat, the re-implementation of the disengagement segregation policy The armed forces of the two lots is limited direct contact with China and Sikkim in the border (then Indian Sikkim 2-3 mountain infantry brigade ), tin border TNI trying to provoke the Chinese army in the border tin Nathula Pass. have repeatedly crossed the demarcation of the border tin, mobile pillar, build fortifications, erecting telephone. Aircraft have repeatedly intruded into China's airspace for Tibet Kangba, East Asia and other places for reconnaissance. After 1966, China launched the "Cultural Revolution" upsurge in 1967, lives around the massive rise, the impact of military authorities seizing weapons also to the numerous, unrest also spread to Tibet, to a greater or lesser extent. To China for strategic reconnaissance, the Indian Army deployed Alpino 112 brigade, Artillery 17th Brigade in 1967, 11 to 14 September in the border tin Nathula Pass to the Chinese garrison launched offensive. Earlier in September, the Indian Army continued cross-border forcibly erecting barbed wire, Chinese garrison repeated serious warning, TNI ignored. September 7, the Indian soldier with a bayonet to stab two Chinese soldiers. September 11 morning 7:30 army mountain infantry brigade an even 112 in a battalion under the command of Lieutenant Colonel, it divides to Nathula Pass approximation of the Chinese outpost. Chinese garrison strictly "fired the first shot" of discipline, restraint, the invasion of the Indian Army issued a serious warning. TNI officers and soldiers of the Chinese restraint as a sign of weakness, 8:00-7 pm, the first shot and threw grenades, despite this positive TNI commander was shot Lipancheng sacrifice spot, and another six wounded soldiers. I then CMC border garrison of the "tit-for-tat, SIT, not a sign of weakness, not lose out" instructions, I Border Mission in unbearable situation, immediately launched a counterattack, only seven minutes, the end of the battle, army officers and soldiers killed 67 people, with 40 rocket launchers to the Indian Army in China set up the full seven fortifications destroyed. 8:15, the Indian military regime fled, the military discipline, without leaving the country to pursue. The Indian side failed, then the artillery brigade to the 17th China launched a massive artillery attack. Therefore, the Chinese army has said. Originally, the Chinese army on the border tin conflict is the principle of "cross-border officers can not, bullet shells also hit the neighboring countries can not land "and the Sino-Indian border conflict" not more transit officers, India can not take the initiative to the artillery fire, but encountered enemy territory to me artillery fire and resolutely counter "different, But this time the Indian Arrogance, approved by the Central Military Commission. I Disan 0 8 artillery regiment organized more than 30 mortar doors on August 2 and 120 mortar responded to the Indian Army. The shelling lasted four days and three nights, eight Indian shelling positions playing dumb, the two command posts, two observation and 23 fortifications and two vehicles were destroyed, and the majority of more than 540 officers and men of the Indian Army, Indian artillery declines. PV in at 22:00 on the 13th stopped shelling. After the situation was reported to the Central and Premier Zhou Enlai personally instructed : "The enemy is not fire a cannon. I would stop shooting. "14 noon, our stop shelling attack. This war, the Indian Army were killed or injured 607 people, in addition to the enemy's military provocation in a death and nine injuries, the basic prejudice. TNI forced under the white flag of the Chinese territory accept the transfer of the body of the Indian army, and weapons and ammunition. TNI has not lost all hopes, at 11:20 a.m. on October 1. Indian Gurkhas, a platoon leader wing rate of seven soldiers penetrated table mountain pass the Chinese side. Gurkhas, armed with machetes to the Chinese soldiers heckled Chinese soldiers spot warning Gorkha guys not care about it, rashly in one go. Chinese soldiers kidnapped want to exit. On hearing the news, rushed to the near post indignation of the Chinese officers and soldiers, and looting from comrade-in-arms, a platoon leader of the Gorkha launched border. Gurkhas soldiers miff, drew a pistol shooting to the Chinese officers and soldiers, and the rest to the Gorkha soldiers of the Chinese officers and soldiers shooting, instantly killed and wounded one of the officers and men of the Chinese people. Meanwhile, Zhuola, Indian Pass near the artillery also used 51-mm and 81-mm mortar fire to the Chinese territory. Head gambling sacrifice comrade-in-arms of the Chinese officers and soldiers immediately returned fire, the invasion of 8 Gorkha soldiers all killed. 12:00 sharp, fierce artillery with the Indian artillery fire suppression, 2 Indian provocation will not even most of the majority of the officers and men (195), 29 destroying fortifications. TNI declines, then in the evening 19:55 shelling stopped. At that time, the brothers still Maohaizi August 9-year-old, 54-uncle in a military division soldiers San 0, They have also leave was canceled, ready for combat, the war on standby to Tibet. But not too long, because the Indian side is the peaceful settlement of disputes, mission canceled, and they did not to Tibet. Since then, the Indian military summed up the Sino-Indian war lessons, the Chinese army has "fired the first shot" principle, if not found shot, it would not have been against the Chinese army, so emboldened breakthrough "their retreat 20 kilometers disengagement" restrictions (in fact only China's unilateral evacuation), constantly crossed the line of actual control in the Chinese army under the eyelids point. To the 80s, and in some areas, and even in-depth practical side of the line of control in China, 10 km. 1986 to 1987, the Chinese border garrison under instructions of the Central Military Commission, had organized a number of irregularities, 87 explosive situation reached the level of considerable tension. Double Stone had participated in the open air to Tibet airport emergency action, which did, and left him!


 * This is a good source for the chinese account...but the translation is obviously not very good and takes away the meaning of many important aspects of the incident. Perhaps someone could provide a good translation?


 * I might consider reading that whole section if paragraphs were inserted.--Yuje 00:55, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * If you understand how to read chinese, the source really gives a darn good account of the chinese perspective.

India had 2 Chinese PoW from '62??
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=zh_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fmilitary.china.com%2fzh_cn%2fhistory2%2f06%2f11027560%2f20050712%2f12476522.html

Hong Kong Wenhui Daily news: An Indian diplomacy department senior official disclosed that, the Indian government has released two in 1962 in the China and India frontier war the Chinese soldier which captures, two people are imprisoned in India for 41 years. These two have been long ago awarded the martyr the soldier, returned to the Sichuan native place.

The official said that, two respectively are 61 year old of and 65 year-old Chinese prisoners of war, for 41 years are imprisoned east India the Ranchi mental hospital. Visits China and the China and India relations along with Indian premier further fixes, the Indian government gives two people China. India's diplomats stated that, "Two people returned to the Sichuan native place, China and India had agreed the event keeps secret."

????

Mikeslackenerny 11:38, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20030727-104257-8893r.htm Another source, http://www.aiipowmia.com/updates/updt0800.html

27 AUG 00: Two Chinese prisoners of war have been found in an Indian mental asylum where they spent the past 35 years. The two inmates, Shih Liang and Yang Chen, have been held at the Central Institute of Psychiatry in the east Indian state of Bihar since 1965, the South China Morning Post said. The two were arrested in 1962 during a bloody Sino-Indian border war across the Himalayas and were held at a jail in New Delhi on charges of espionage, it said. Three years later, the Indian army took them to the asylum. Neither the Indian nor Chinese government appears to know about the two men, the Post said. The newspaper quoted India's Home Affairs Ministry as saying that it has no knowledge of the two prisoners, while the Foreign Ministry in Beijing said it would investigate the matter before responding.

GoI replies to the same
http://mha.nic.in/pr0900.htm 01.09.2000(2)

Reports relating to 'Two Chinese Prisoners of War' in Central Institute of Psychiatry, Ranchi

Reports relating to two Chinese Prisoners of War (Indo China War of 1962) languishing in Central Institute of Psychiatry, Ranchi have appeared in media.

Factual position is clarified as under:-

One MA Shiblung ( at present 63 years of age) a Chinese national was arrested in 1964. He was seen roaming around, talking in Chinese and was harboring suspicious ideas that people are about to kill him. With the help of an interpreter, it was noted that he believed himself to be the President of China and his brother as Prime Minister of China. . He was initially restrained in Tihar Jail where he developed feeding problem and had to be fed intranasally. He was sent to Hospital for Medical Diseases, Shahadra and subsequently was admitted to Central Institute of Psychiatry, Ranchi in 1970. He continued to show hallucinatory behaviour, talking and smiling to self and sudden shouting. A Committee was constituted to examine the patient MA Shiblung. The Committee found him to be a burnt out case of Chronic Schizophrenia. The Psychiatrist Physician recommended that he may be treated as out patient.

Similarly another Chinese national Yang Chia Lun (at present 62 years of age) was reported to have entered India for better prospects. Mr. Yang Chia Lun was admitted to Central Institute of Psychiatry, Ranchi. A Committee was constituted to examine the patient Yang Chia Lun. The Committee found him to be a burnt out case of Chronic Schizophrenia who doesn't require in patient care in the hospital. The Psychiatrist Physician recommended that he may be treated as out patient.

Proposed sub-articles
The article is too long. What is needed to be done is to copy and paste paragraphs into new more specific articles and then writing only one sentence here describing what that paragraph means or if it is a detailed one then a couple of sentences may be required. At the moment the article has more info on the events before and after the war then it has on the war so I suggest expanding that (and no subarticles are needed for that) while moving the rest. Proposed subarticles are: Traing 07:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Johnson Line
 * Events leading up the Sino-Indian War
 * Preparations for the Sino-Indian War
 * 1987 Sino-Indian skirmish
 * Nathu La incident


 * The article should focus on 1962-63. Now it's a history of Sino-Indian boundary disputes. This theory that the 1962 war was caused by a boundary dispute is presented as undisputed fact -- and I must strongly disagree. Kauffner 04:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Is there any particular reason why? It does seem to be what most conventional scholarship presents, except for perhaps Indian sources. --Yuje 21:34, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The Chinese offensive on Oct. 20 occurred simultaneously on two fronts 1,000 km apart. There was only one highway between China proper and Tibet at that time and it must have taken months to move up the supplies needed. So Maxwell's thesis that the offensive was triggered by fighting near Thagla Ridge in early October is not plausible. Mao wanted to punish India for giving the Dalai Lama refuge in 1959. He delayed for as long as possible because he worried that India would retaliate by allowing U-2 flights. In the summer of 1962, Russia agreed to sell India high attitude MiG-21 fighters, so Mao could see that a window of opportunity was about to shut. The Chinese withdrew from NEFA when their supplies ran out. So they must have planned from the beginning to go in and come back out. This hard to explain if you assume that the underlying issue is a border dispute.
 * Although Sino-Indian War was small in military terms, it was a major turning point in terms of internal Chinese politics. Before the war, only the party was glorified in official propaganda, but afterwards the army was emphasized: "Learn from the People's Liberation Army," Lin Biao, Lei Feng, and so forth. This prefigured the Cultural Revolution when the party was marginalized and army officers put in charge.
 * Shifting power to the army allowed Mao to get revenge against Liu, Deng and the other party leaders who foiled his "great leap forward" policy. The official line is that GLP was a development program defeated by "three years of natural disasters." But for Mao, keeping China in "glorious poverty" and starvation was the point of GLP. The Khmer Rouge become his heros later on. They did to Cambodia what Mao would like to have done to China. Kauffner 04:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
 * IMO, Zhou's diplomatic charm offensive in 1959-60 was designed to provide cover while the army prepared an invasion. By the same logic, the decision to patrol the McMahon Line in the summer of 1961 suggests that the invasion was called off at that time, probably because of the U-2 issue. Nehru learned of this from the CIA, decided the frontier was safe again, and the Forward Policy was his response. After Liu humiliated Mao at the party conference in January 1962, Mao revived the invasion plan in order to increase the prestige of the army and get back at Liu and the CCP. Kauffner 06:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The same can be argued with Burma. At the time, Burma was also claiming the McMahon Line as the basis for its boundaries, while Chinese claims included a strip of land in Northern Burma, as well as the Namwon Assigned Tract, an area taken from China and put under perpetual lease during British Administration. And at the time, nothern Burma was harboring a base for remnant nationalist forces, which had retreated there and continued to launch guerilla attacks against China from their base, as well as dominate the opium trade into China. Like with India, there were some border clashes between the two countries at places where the borders disagreed. However, unlike with India, Burma was willing to negotiate, and neither side accused the other of aggression, and the border was settled peacefully in 1960. Everything you argue could equally well apply to Burma, and were a war simply launched for political purposes to distract from the Great Leap Forward, it would also be a far smaller and more vulnerable country, and against a very real threat of KMT forces who undoutedbly planned to reinvade the mainland eventually.
 * On the other hand, actual recorded statements by various leaders did seem to indicate they felt the Indians were being unreasonable on the issue. See the Mao quotes, or Chen Yi's "the McMahon Line is a knife pointed at China's heart". It's hardly just a Maxwell theory, because Garver, Calvin, Whiting, and even Jung Chang say so. I doubt it's true that the army was never glorified before the Sino-Indian war. Have you ever heard of the Korean War? During this war, Chinese propaganda glorified the army's role in standing up to the American armed forces (the first time any Chinese force had won against western armed forces in some 200 years). It's true that they had planned to go back out from the very beginning, because it was never the plan to sieze the whole area, but more of "teach them a lesson" war, to end the various border provocations with a single punishing blow. It certainly worked, as the forward policy completely stopped, and the number of border clashes in the decades afterwards could be counted on one hand. --Yuje 22:29, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Why India and not Burma? And what about Hong Kong and Macau, even more vulnerable than Burma? I think it's clear that Mao had a personal grudge against Nehru for reasons related to the flight of the Dalai Lama to India in 1959. What Mao thought Nehru could have done differently, I don't know. But the event was a humiliation for Mao and it is human nature to pin the blame for humiliation on others. Garver records Mao giving his first warmongering speech to the CCP Central Committee in April 1959, right after Dalai Lama's flight. This was followed up with propaganda denunciations of Nehru and a series of attacks on Indian patrols later that year. Mountbatten warned Nehru that there was "trouble brewing up" and that he should appoint at commander in chief for the Indian military. Chang begins her account by writing that, "Mao had been planning War with India on the border issue for some time," i.e. he had been contemplating war for years before 1962. So I don't see any consensus in the literature supporting Maxwell's thesis that China'a 1962 offensive was a response to Indian military activity in early October.
 * Zhou put a smile on his face for his trip to India in April 1960, but only to distract attention from the knife that was being sharpened for India's belly. The resolution of the Sino-Burmese border issue was old news, something U Nu and Zhou had agreed to back in 1956. The formal signing of the agreeement was delayed until January 1960 to give Indians the illusion that Zhou arrived with a fresh willingness to compromise on border issues.
 * Thoughout the years Mao was in power, he would stir up war and crisis with other nations to enhance his power domestically. The Second Taiwan Straits Crisis in 1958 provided a pretext for a popular mobilization now seen as the beginning of the Great Leap Forward. Border conflict with Russia in the late 1960s played a similar role during the Cultural Revolution. Of course, there are reasons why it was India's turn in 1962. But which country was attacked and in what order the blows fell was incidental in terms of Mao's grand strategy.
 * At some point, every Chinese leaders has said something to the effect that, "We were right and the Indians caused the war." Cannot we not find similar statements by Indian leaders blaming China? Less common, but more revealing, are the statement on the record that go against the offical line, "statements against interest," as the lawyers would call them. Garver quotes Mao as stating several times in private that the causus belli was not the McMahon Line, but rather India's attempts to "seize Tibet."Kauffner 14:46, 6 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't believe any sources ever advance the theory that you propose, not even Jung Chang. Garver supports the theory that the Chinese feared the Indians had designs on Tibet, and that the Forward Policy was part of a plan to gradually advance upon that territory. The Indians probably only wanted the Tibetans to be given more autonomy by the Chinese government, as well as be given a special relationship like they have with Nepal, Bhutan, and Sikkim, but the Chinese leadership didn't know that. After Khampa rebels were defeated, they fled, and when Chinese forces pursued them, they were fired upon by an Indian outpost at Longju, which was north of the McMahon Line, which deepened their suspicions of Indian complicity over the Tibetan rebellion, especially as India appeared to have been giving them moral support.


 * As for Jung Chang, I don't believe she ever suggests Mao planned the war because of the Great Leap Forward. In the section I quoted below, she says Mao prepared for war as border clashes escalated, and she never suggests what you say. I'm sure Jung would not have spared Mao if she had any evidence that what you say was indeed true. Her descriptions of Mao in other wars don't:


 * In the Long March, Mao's greatest victories were battles that never occured, the Long March was a hoax and Chiang actually let him go, the only battles he actually fought were great defeats he planned in order to get rid of rivals to secure personal power, the only victories were those outside of Mao's command.
 * The Sino-Japanese War was an event that Mao never partipated in, except against other Chinese, and the communist victories over Japanese were in fact because Mao's subordinates disobeyed him and fought the Japanese.
 * The Chinese Civil War was won not because of the effectiveness of guerilla warfare, or even of winning battles, but because all the KMT generals that lost against the communists, like Hu Zongnan, were actually secret communist sleeper agients that deliberately lost.
 * The Korean war wasn't fought because of American troops approaching the Chinese border, but because Mao deliberately wanted to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of ex-KMT soldiers against American to force the Soviets to have to support and build up China's arms industry, and Mao actively sought American nuclear war on Chinese soil in order to pressure the Soviets to build up China's nuclear industry.
 * The Sino-Soviet clashes were a direct result of Mao's ego trip which led him to reject Kruschev's willingness to turn China into a superpower and instead strike off on her own and start a Chinese-led world communist movement.
 * In the light of all these condemnations of Mao during his other wars (and for which some have accused her of being biased or inaccurate), it seems strange that she says suprisingly little about the Sino-Indian War. She says that Mao prepared for war after border clashes, and following a border dispute, and yet I don't think anyone would doubt that she would have taken the chance to criticize Mao's personality or personal character had she the evidence for it. And yet she doesn't. The most she goes to say was that Mao used the threat of withdrawing from communist solidarity during the Cuban Missile Crisis in order to blackmail Kruschev against criticizing him. --Yuje 04:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Nehru gutted the Indian army soon after he became prime minister. Based on Longju and Kongka Pass in 1959, Mao must have concluded the Indians were pushovers. At Thagla Ridge in 1962, the Chinese lite camp fires, something almost unheard of in the history of warfare, a sign of total confidence. The Chinese army wasn't seriously worried about Indian agression.
 * I find hard to see what China gained out of the war. India retaliated by allowing U-2s to overfly Lop Nor, something Mao had tried hard to prevent. Also, India and the CIA boosted aid to the Tibetan rebels. The rebels were able to capture a truck convoy with a trove of classified PLA documents. In 1987, China and India almost went to war over some worthless valley. Ok, they actually fight and all's well that ends well. But the episode shows how the 1962 war poisoned relations for long afterward. It also inhibited trade between India and China nations until 2003, when a trade agreement was finally signed. The explosive growth of Sino-Indian trade in the last few years shows the potential that existed earlier. IMO, Mao understood that he throwing away strategic advantages, otherwise he wouldn't have waited three years to attack. For him, outmaneuvering Liu and the "capitalist roaders" was a higher priority.Kauffner 15:54, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Instead of using indirect evidence for which you don't seem to be able to provide sources, why not quote Mao directly in order to find out Mao's motivations? During the planning of the war, Mao said winning the war "will guarantee at least thirty years of peace" with India, which it in fact did. None of the notes from the war planning committee mention anything about Liu Shaoqi or his band of "capitalist roaders". The entire conflict at Thag La, as well as the majority of the eastern fighting during the months of October, took place north of the McMahon Line. If the war was entirely because of Mao's personal egoism to punish Liu and because of his anger over the Dalai Lama, then what were Indian troops doing north of the McMahon Line? Again, not even Jung Chang book supports what you say, and she's the one that says Mao's intentions in Vietnam and Korea were all aimed at the goal of provoking the USA into nuking China (though if what she suggest is true, one would wonder why Mao would squander the 1962 oppurtunity to provoke American nukes).  --Yuje 01:11, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

What Jung Chang actually says
Whoever read Jung Chang wrote in the article: "China began preparations for war with India in May or June."

And here's what it actually says:

It later goes on to say that the decision was made in October, after Mao was able to blackmail Kruschev and the USSR into supporting China. --Yuje 21:30, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * So you're saying that China prepared for war in May-June, then decided not to go war, but the war started in October anyway? Logically, the decision should come first, then the military preparations, and finally the war. IMO, Chang just put her sentences in the wrong order. Anil Athale, co-author of the official history, gives a clearer view of the military timeline, although I find Chang's explaination of the role of the Cuban missile crisis to be more convincing than Athale's.
 * The second Chang quote is misleading. The following paragraph states, "The Americans said they would not back Chiang to go to war against the Mainland, and that Chiang promised not to attack without Washington's consent" (p. 569). This happened on June 23, 1962, according to Chang's source notes. Thus Mao could prepare for the Sino-Indian War without worrying about a KMT attack. Kauffner 06:53, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

1962 War in Popular Culture
I plan to add a section, or a note in the aftermath, about the Indian movie Haqeeqat (Reality), which was made in 1964 and told of the last ditch battle at Rezang La for the defence of Chulshul in Ladakh sector.

Is there any popular culture reference from China?

Mikeslackenerny 08:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Indian Casualty Figures (Revision?)
1. PoWs no is accurate, as it is confirmed by both Indian and Chinese sources 3968. 2. Number of Killed = 1,383 and Missing = 1,696. This is what Calvin says, and attributes it to official Indian sources. Not sure what sources he means. The term missing has no real meaning almost 50 year later, and I propose we remove it.

So total supposed dead are = 3079 (All sectors) According to Garver.


 * According to, the memorial at Tawang lists 2420 dead only in the Eastern Sector (Kameng).

The Tawang Memorial is dedicated to the 2420 martyrs killed in the Kameng sector during the 1962 Indo-China war

As to western secror, we can guess at casualties after looking at the battles and the no. of dead listed there. (Chulshul etc.)

Athale (Official History) says a total of 2616 were killed or seriously wounded.

Mikeslackenerny 05:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's logical to say that everyone missing is dead. Garver's source wasn't written at the time, it is quite recent. If Garver says 1383 killed and 1696 missing then that is what it is. Also, the Chinese casaulties figure of 700 or so seems inaccurate based on reports of various separate battles. I just doesn't work out with the math. Traing 06:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I mixed up Calvin and Garver. It was Calvin who gave the 'missing' figures. And the missing figures make no sense in 1984. Many soldiers died while returning from Bhutan, and many of there were killed by the Chinese after the ceasefire (See Athale's report on BR).


 * I believe the 722 figure for the Chinese could be only the Eastern Front. The Chinese source has given a break up of no. of officers and NCOs and ORs in the source. I have postted the Mandarin version in the Chinese Casualty discussion above.


 * Also, once the Indian Cas figures on the Western front can be confirmed, we can get a combined figure for Eastern (2420) and western. Mikeslackenerny 03:42, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The Indian Army has given a list of all soldiers killed in all ops since WW-2 (including peace time ops) here: . Here we can see that total no. of soldiers killed in Indo-China War (1962 + 67 + 86) is 3429 and Sikkam-Tibet (1967) clashes is 04. Need to see database and check dates od death to come to exact figures.


 * Data from the above has been mined at this site . Accodingly, I have updated Indian Cas figures for 1962 and 1967. Also, if you see the site, you can see that significant action took place in 1978, 79 in Leh/Ladakh and in Sikkim again in 1980.


 * I see from your source that Indian casualties troops were still being killed well into December in post-ceasefire skirmishes. Perhaps that should also be included. Traing 07:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * December figures are included in 3128. These were the onese killed (by Chinese and the adverse weather) while coming from Bhutan. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mikeslackenerny (talk • contribs) 07:48, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

POV changes (yet again)
--Yuje 22:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
 * China's maps showed the land between Ladakh and Bhutan as Chinese.
 * what it actually says:"Maps accompanying the report showed both Aksai Chin in Ladakh and territory up to the Himalayan foothills, east of Bhutan as Chinese territory."
 * This was a distortion of a source (again) to imply that China had claims to Sikkim and Nepal.
 * Fixed. Traing 07:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Traing keeps on quoting this: "Nehru staed "We will negotiate and negotiate and negotiate to the bitter end. I absolutely reject the approach of stopping negotiations at any state."[4] Nehru stated He remained firm that there would be no boundary negotiations until Chinese troops withdrew from Aksai Chin and areas south of the British McMahon Line.[3][4]
 * Of course, when I add the conditions he offered for negotiations, Traing keeps deleting them. He does this to keep implying that Nehru was reasonable and kept on wanting to negotiate, but when keeps deleting his proposed conditions, which were the reason the Chinese rejected:
 * Calvin:"Meanwhile, the diplomatic exchanges continued. But Nehru maintained that there was little to negotiate about the frontiers claimed by India.  He was prepared to discuss "minor details" of border delimitation, but only if China would first withdraw from, and renounce her claim to, Aksai Chin."
 * Maxwell"The sina qua non of a boundary settlement in the Indian view was that China must concede that Aksai Chin was Indian territory as well as accepting the McMahon Line."(emphasis in original)
 * I don't quote it. Traing 07:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * This was deleted, without explanation:"Fearful of flanking attacks, Indian troops also occupied positions at Tsang Le, which were inside Bhutan; Indian forces were told to ignore the line and international boundary. However, Chinese forces avoided the crossings by fording the river. Quickly seizing Indian positions and cutting off telephone lines, they were able to take control of Tsangdhar and Hathung La and were in a position to cut off escape and possible resupply for the Indian forces. However, Chinese forces ignored Tsang Le, which was inside Bhutanese territory. Indian forces withdrew back towards Tawang. "
 * Fixed. Traing 07:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * "On the evening of November 19, Nehru, made an appeal to the United States for armed aid, including airstrikes, if Chinese forces continued to advance, and air cover, in case of raids by the Chinese air force."
 * Calvin:"Late on the evening of November 20th, prime Minister Nehru made an urgent and open appeal to the United States for armed intervention against the Chinese;"
 * Fixed. Traing 07:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

The main problem with this article is that there are simply to many pro-chinese and pro-indian contributors to the article. This is coming from an external observer.


 * Are there any Pro-Elbonian editors out there to balance it in a 3-way see-saw? Mikeslackenerny 16:56, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

What are you doing Yuje?
I'm trying to shorten the article per Wikipedia guidelines by using smaller articles to represent the conflict before the start of the war but you are restoring it completely to make the article unbearably long. Traing 06:59, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm trying to improve it by extended it and giving the historical background leading up to the war, to make it a feature-length article. You look like you're trying to POV-fork the article. I noticed that in many of your edits, you claim you are "compressing", but you always seem to somehow delete important facts of the border dispute, such as the fact that the Indians modified the McMahon Line coordinates. You add in Singh saying that India considered the Himalayas to be its ancient boundaries, yet delete the part of history describing that those boundaries came from British wars with Burma in the first place. You deleted the Dalvi quotes which show that even the commander on the spot had doubts to the legitimacy of the claims he was fighting for. Viewing the last week's worth of edits, I see several pages of deletions, and no substantial editions of any sort. And of course, all the material you deleted invariably came from my edits, while you left your own untouched.


 * Wikipedia is supposed to be a encylopedia, a repository of knowledge, not a Cliff Notes book. A glance at the diff shows no additions, so I'm reverting to the more detailed version, and editing from there. --Yuje 02:49, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Do you have ANY idea what a FA length is??? It is NOT 111 kb!! You would get rejected on FAC straight away!! I am using subarticles which is what you are MEANT to do. I can never accept this, it takes very long to compress paragraphs into long sentences! You seem to have no knowledge of what a feature-length article is. I mistook you for someone who had great knowledge of Wikipedia. I am not making POV deletions, I am moving the exact text of your version to subarticles where full descriptions are written, I am just summarizing. NOT deleting! Traing 07:39, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Traing is POV-forking. He is selectively moving out the facts he does not like out of the main article. For example, he left in Indian accusations that Chinese claims were based on imperialism, but snipped out Chinese accusations that Indian claims were based on the British empire. For example, he snips out parts which detail the changes that India made to the McMahon Line, but leaves in claims about how India regards the Himalayas as its borders, and leaves in India's interpretations that the border should be on the highest ridges. Like I said, he is very selectively snipping out the parts he doesn't like to put a very unbalanced summary. If a reader just goes through the main article and not onto the subarticle, the view presented to him is very unbalanced and POVed, because of Traing's selective snippings. Like I said, look any all his deletions/POV-forks into other articles. Almost all his deletions are taken out of my edits, none from his. And frankly, the information needs to be there, since all the authors, including Lamb, Whiting, Calvin, Maxwell, Mullik, and so on feature long background sections on their works detailing the background to the dispute. It doesn't make sense otherwise. The war itself took place during only 10 days of actual fighting. Workers have put out strikes that have lasted longer, it's the geopolitics of the war that make it significant. --Yuje 08:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Dr pda's article size script reveals that the readable prose on this article is at 79KB; far too large. Please read WP:LENGTH for a discussion of appropriate readable prose size and WP:SS on summary style. Sandy Georgia (Talk) 14:01, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * He editted the article in a completely POVed manner, editting out selectively, and he deleted huge sections of information that despite what he said, did not restore anywhere else. And almost all his cuts are taken out of my edits, which shows a POVed manner of doing so. Had I not restored the edits, they would have been gone. Also, I don't feel that his deletions were justifiable, since they are vital information for the article. On the other hand, I repeatedly asked him for sources for the Chola incident, which he did not provide, and he insisted on keeping that incident on the main article despite failing to fulfill the standards of reliable sources and notability.


 * If the article must be shortened, I propose that the manner in which the article be shortened and summarized be discussed here first, by multiple editors (not just me and Traing), so that there is a more balanced view on this matter, because frankly, I don't trust Traing. In previous edits to this article, he has fabricated facts and falsely claimed they were from cited sources (after I pressed him, it turned out he couldn't provide cites from the source because he never read it, and he admitted he was makign them up), on multiple instances he inserted his own opinions into the article and claimed they came from books or articles when they didn't, made up facts, and tried to delete large amounts of information in his edits. --Yuje 04:16, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * That was when I was new to Wikipedia! I have learnt much since then. Must you keep brining that up? I don't think you understand the concepts of subarticles? Your version is being copied verbatim into Origins of the Sino-Indian border dispute and Events leading to the Sino-Indian War (which is 31kb in itself!). All I'm doing is compressing the article here, which is not meant to cover all these things in as much detail as the subarticles. The fact that you add 30 kb to the article in your revert and thus take it over 100 kb means that you are in the wrong here. SandyGeorgia has said themselves that the article is too long at 78kb let alone your 111kb version. Before accusing me and making baseless reverts, find out what my edits have done. Traing 08:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Right, when Traing first joined Wikipedia, he turned to blatent lying as his option of first resort, and admitted to it only after being repeatedly being caught at it. Am I supposed to believe that this was only because you were a newbie and needed to be explicitly told that lying and fabrication are in fact wrong? If you hadn't been repeatedly caught at it, would you have gone back and changed all those made up or fabricated evidences after you stopped being a newbie? Somehow, I doubt that. --Yuje 05:06, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Well then I have you to thank for teaching me how things work on Wikipedia when I was a newbie. But somehow that's irrelevant to recent concerns. Traing 09:05, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Good article
Wow.. the article has evolved brilliantly over the past couple of months. Informative and well referenced article.. good job. --Grubb 17:58, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Map
The political map of India has a caption stating that the map shows Bhutan as part of India, when Bhutan is infact shaded a different colour to India. Can someone clarify? Traing 07:45, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The 1954 map shades Bhutan and Sikkim and the map says that the two have been attached to India by a special treaty. Look at the legend and see the difference between the lines used for international boundaries and internal boundaries. The lines used for the border with Bhutan and Sikkim (and Nepal, for that matter) don't use the international border lines that are used one the border with China and Pakistan, but uses the lines for Indian subdivisions. The 1950 map shows both as being independent countries.--Yuje 08:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The article is just glorifying the Indian army
What the heck is this? The whole article just turn into an Indian propaganda piece. Many parts of the article said Indians inflicted higher casualties to the Chinese than the other way around. And it almost onesidely talk about Indian army's bravary and make the Chinese troop look stupid.


 * I agree. 450w 16:25, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Find sources then which represent another line of thought over the Battle of Rezang La, or Chushul. Traing 01:12, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I fully agree. Just look at the write up on the Western Theatre. It is a blatant glorification of the Indian Army and details events and accounts of bravery of individual soldiers. The style of presentation makes a mockery out of this encyclopedia. BeyRel 05:13, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Here's what's biased
--Yuje 01:03, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * [Text box] Deletion of who won the war. Wars do not involve armies simply moving around back and forth. Battles are fought, and one side or the other wins. Traing kept on deleting text that says that China won the war.
 * "The first heavy fighting of the war was triggered by a Chinese attack on an Indian patrol north of the McMahon Line."
 * This is incredibly biased account. There was a confrontation at Thag La Ridge, which was north of the McMahon Line. Nehru ordered the soldiers to "expel the Chinese", and Operation Leghorn was launched to do just that. The Indian troops there weren't doing routine patrols, but advancing towards Chinese positions, and the group that got attacked was moving into positions to outflank the Chinese positioned at Thag La.
 * According to Calvin this was the first heavy fighting of the war. Like it or not. Traing 09:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * [The McMahon Line]: "This border was intended to run through the highest ridges of the Himalayas, as the areas south of the Himalayas were traditionally Indian."
 * This is in fact the Indian claim. The text of the Simla Treaty does not say it was meant to run through the highest ridges. It was later the Indians who would claim this, and then they modified the McMahon Line to include the highest ridges. This simply states the Indian position as a fact. I'm reading Mullik's book right now, and even he doesn't consider those areas "traditionally Indian". (He said that the areas south of the Himalayas were under the greatest threat of "Chinese infiltration" as the tribals were unassimilated into India at that time, and that Indians considered the Himalayas to be Indian because they were inhabited by Tibetans, and that Indians consider Tibet to be part of Indian civilization)
 * I'll make those changes in the coming week, when I have time. Traing 09:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Deleted was the portion that indicated that India in fact moved the McMahon Line northwards without treaty or negotiation, and also changed the coordinates of the line. This is simply deleted from the main article.
 * I think it writes how India was expanding north of the McMahon Line but south of the ridges. Traing 09:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * "China's claim on areas south of the McMahon Line, encompassed in the North East Frontier Agency, were based on traditional boundaries without written or documented acceptance from anyone else apart from China."
 * This is simply cited as a fact, not as a claim.
 * OK, I'll change that over the coming week. Traing 09:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * "Both sides claim that the other's claim is strictly based on part imperial control.[18][20] V.K. Singh argues that India does not claim areas which were previously under Indian Imperial Rule, such as the lands conquered by the Mauryans or Cholas."
 * This is simply drawing a red herring. China didn't accuse India of claiming lands under previous Indian imperial rule, Zhou Enlai accused them of basing their claims on British Imperial claims. This of course conveniently deleted, while this red herring is kept. Also deleted is the very valid claim that China also doens't claim areas under previous imperial rule by the Tang or Han dynasties, which is equally true.
 * Your claim for the Tang and Han dynasties were OR and sunsourced. This claim is straight from VK Singh and is attributed to him. Traing 09:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * "On July 1, 1954, Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru directed that the frontier should be definite."
 * What the Indian government did was change their maps that had previously labeled borders as deliminated and demarcated frontiers and changed them to have established borders, and also included Sikkim and Bhutan as part of India. Demarcated means that borders are surveyed and boundary markers, fences, or posts are actually placed on the ground to establish the border. This, the map changing, and the claims over Bhutan and Sikkim were deleted.
 * OK, I'll change that over the coming week. Traing 09:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * "Dhola lay north of the McMahon Line but south of the ridges the McMahon Line was supposed to represent."
 * Again, this takes the Indian position simply as a statement of fact. The Dhola lay north of the McMahon on the actual treaty map as well. While China didn't recognize it as a legal map, they accepted this as a de-facto border open to negotiation. That the McMahon Line was supposed to be on certain ridges was the Indian position, not a statement of fact, and comes from the Indian alterations to the McMahon Line (and their insistence that this modified line was the only legal border)
 * OK, I'll change that over the coming week. Traing 09:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * "On September 8, a 60-strong PLA unit descended to the south side of the ridge and occupied one of the Indian posts at Dhola."
 * This is a bald-faced lie. The troops did not occupy or even attack the posts at Dhola. Also deleted was the fact that the post commander deliberately exaggerated Chinese numbers to 600, and that several battations were sent by Indian in reponse to "expel the Chinese".
 * I think it's sourced. I'll look into this. Traing 09:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * "writer Ramkumar Srinivasan speculates that the real aim of the war was to create a distraction to cover the failures of the Great Leap Forward in the 1950s[27] It is suggested that Mao also wanted to propose Lin Bao with a decisive military defeat over India which would increase his popularity as well as that of the People's Liberation Army."
 * I believe the article is placing undue emphasis on his opinion. All the other positions of intent on the war are quoted from books or articles written by historians, academics, politicians, or soldiers from the war. Ramkumar Srinivasan is none of these, in fact his article is basically an editorial, and even in his article he says that his claims are merely his own speculations.
 * It's just one opinion. Traing 09:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Image:Sino-Indian War.pngThis Traing map is horribly inaccurate. It doesn't included the middle sector of the dispute, and it misrepresents no less than three independent countries. Sikkim is shown as part of India, while Bhutan and Nepal are shown as part of China, none of which were true in 1962.
 * I need to replace that map when I get time. Traing 09:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * United States intervention section: Traing repeatedly moves this section to before the ceasefire, when in fact Nehru's request for American intervention happened after the ceasefire. In fact, Traing changed the dates several times in order to accomodate this change. In fact, after I mentioned this, and corrected it, and cited the source for it, Traing changed it back again. Nehru asked for aid on November 20, after having recieved the ceasefire announcment. Traing keeps on changing the date and placing it before the ceasefire to imply that the Chinese ceasefire came as a result of the threat of American intervention. This section should be placed after the ceasefire.
 * It doesn't make sense for this section to placed after the ceasefire. Traing 09:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * "China kept the territory which they had affirmed total control of in Aksai Chin but returned all the territory captured from the North East Frontier Agency"
 * All the territory they kept in the Aksai Chin was territory they had controlled "before the war", yet Traing keeps deleting this repeatedly, and keeps changing the text to say that it was seized during the war. He also deleted the original text which shows how much of the disputed territory was involved. "The PLA withdrew to positions along the Line of Actual Control, which China had occupied before the war (map) and on which it staked its diplomatic claim[16] (keeping most of the Aksai Chin, which comprised 32% of the disputed territory and returning North East Frontier Agency, which comprised 68%)." Traing also keeps deleting this map which shows that China in fact did not "keep the territory they had affirmed total control of in Aksai Chin". (They returned the portions of the Aksai Chin that they gained during the war).
 * It says "affirmed total control of". Tell me what that means. Traing 09:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Traing deleted the bolded portions: "According to VK Singh, China kept territory past their 1960 claim line[18], though even the Indian official history says the Chinese forces did not advance past their 1960 claim line"
 * Very nice use of selective quoting and selective deleting, Traing.
 * OK, I didn't notice that, I'll change that over the coming week. Traing 09:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * "By 1984, squads of Indian soldiers began actively patrolling the Sumdorong Chu Valley in Arunachal Pradesh (formerly NEFA), which is north of the McMahon Line as drawn on the Simla Treaty map but south of the ridge which is meant to delineate the McMahon Line"
 * Again, this is presenting the Indian interpretation of the McMahon Line as fact, when in fact the treaty map (which I uploaded to Wikipedia) and the treaty doesn't say this. This text has been altered to suggest that the treaty map (which shows the position as north of the McMahon Line) is wrong, and that India's changes to it are correct.
 * OK, I'll change that over the coming week. Traing 09:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll probably get time over the next few days to look over and fix the changes I have told you I would fix. Traing 09:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)