Talk:Snooker

Volunteer snooker
Suite101.com says that "Volunteer Snooker is a variation of snooker that was alive and popular in the late 1950's". www.suite101.com/article.cfm/cue_sports/24540 Якушев Илья (talk) 15:53, 30 May 2010 (UTC)
 * This needs its own Volunteer snooker article, or a section here. Or see below for third option. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 21:06, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Other variants
The small book "Snooker Games" by Mike Stooke (1988, ISBN 9780951297704) documents more snooker variations, "chase the green", "crash" and "cricket", that either need articles or should have short coverage here. Or maybe there should be a Variants of snooker article with all of these as well as volunteer snooker, sinuca Brasileira, etc. Needs to be resolved one of these three ways. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 21:02, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If there are many variants of the game described in this book, maybe best resolve will be to write a Variants of snooker article. And to write there what of these variants are the most popular--Якушев Илья (talk) 21:07, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Snookerpool
Text added by IP: Snookerpool is also a commonly played variant especially within the casual or amateur community, which is full snooker played on a standard 9-ball table; the larger pockets make shots somewhat easier and players are able to torch the cueball into the pack much more easily for a better spread of reds. The edit was reverted as unsourced. I still think there might be something in this so I've appealed to the IP on their Talk page for clarification. But without any sources, there's not really a lot we can do with it. Rodney Baggins (talk) 14:16, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm sure there are people who call it that, but I've searched a lot, and they almost always say it's just an old name for snooker. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:17, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Miscellaneous Notes
The BACC "eventually agreed to stage the first Professional Championship of Snooker's Pool in the 1926-27 season. It was a season-long tournament; the first world championship game was between Melbourne Inman and Tom Newman at Thurston's Hall, played between November 26 and December 6, 1926 ... The final, which Davis won, was held at one of Camkin's Billiard Halls in Birmingham, and started on May 9, 1927." Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:56, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that Benny. I can see that the championship is labelled 1927 because that's when the all-important final took place, but it was actually spread over the 26/27 season. I'm thinking we can probably cover the confusion using a carefully worded footnote, which itself could carry your citation. I'll look at it later. Rodney Baggins (talk) 09:20, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

"During the 1880s rumours of this new game reached England, and when John Roberts went to India on one of his tours he had it in his mind to find out the rules. One evening in 1885 in Calcutta, Chamberlain was dining with the Maharajah of Cooch Behar when Roberts was introduced to him. Roberts duly brought the game back to England. It was many a long day before snooker became widely played. Not every hall nor every club could afford a snooker set of 22 balls although it was not long before the manufacturers appreciated snooker's superior commercial possibilities."

"The rules of snooker, which had been subject to many variations, were codified in when the Billiards Association and Billiards Control Club amalgamated in 1919. The drawn game was abolished when provision was made for the black to be respotted at the end of a frame if the scores were equal. The free ball was introduced to supersede the BCC rule that if a player was snookered he could have the snookering ball(s) taken up so that he could play onto the 'nearest ball playable' ... The penalty for going in-off a red was still only one, the four point minimum penalty still being a few years away. The touching ball rule was introduced in 1927."

Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 12:22, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

"Unfortunately, there are no contemporary accounts of the invention of the game, and the preceding story [i.e. about Chamberlain in India] was not related until the 1930s. No description of snooker before that time contains any mention of its genesis, and news articles concerning Chamberlain make no reference of any role he may have had in its invention."; "The game was introduced into Australia in 1887 by Frank Smith Sr." On page 229, Shamos lists the following variations, each of which have their own entry in the Encyclopedia: American Snooker, Canadian Snooker, Devil-among-the-tailors, four-handed snooker, Golf, Liability, Nine-hole snooker, Pay ball, Penalty game, Pink pool, Savile snooker, Short snooker, Snooker billiards, Snooker golf, Snooker plus, Snooker roulette, Snookerette, Volunteer snooker. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 12:57, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

In August 1924, Tom Dennis wrote to the BA&CC asking them to organise an open professional snooker tournament. BA&CC Secretary A. Stanley Thorn replied "The suggestion will receive consideration at an early date but it seems a little doubtful whether snooker as a spectacular game is sufficiently popular to warrant the successful promotion of such a competition."

"Camkin was also very much involved in instituting the professional snooker championship. As a proprietor of billiard halls, he knew full well how popular snooker was; and a conversation with Joe Davis, who had played snooker since his youthful days of managing billiard halls around Chesterfield, led to Davis's writing to the B.A. and C.C. drafting the conditions under which such an event could take place. The association gave their consent and issued conditions."

"It is regarded as highly unlikely that anyone will ever dominate the game to [Joe Davis'] level again" - I had a browse through Everton's 1986 book looking at pages where the index had entries for Davis, and couldn't find a suitable source for this. It's now 35 years since that book was published, so I'm not sure that it could still be used to support such a statement (unless qualified) anyway. FWIW, I believe that it is highly unlikely; and it's the sort of thing that I think Everton (who remains in awe of Davis) could have written about. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:49, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Possible snooker origins
(Just a few thoughts):

Peter Ainsworth argues that the game evolved more from the game of pyramids (called "shell-out" when more than two players were involved), rather than from the game of black pool. This is because in pyramids the players shared the same cue ball as snooker does, and the 15 reds were placed in a pyramid formation, in the same position as in modern snooker. But in black pool, no single cue ball is used, and it does not have a pack of reds. -

Page 5 of above also gives reference to the game of pyramids and added were "the other coloured balls", and the simple rules for the game then prepared in 1882 at Ootacamund.

The following article gives 24 rules relating to "a new game called snookers". It was printed in a newspaper on 10 October 1884. Rule no.2 is interesting (at least to me anyway):

"Billiard players have been promised a new game called "Snookers", which we are assured is to supplant Pyramids and Pool ere long.

The rules are given below: ...

2. - 15 red balls are placed on the table as in "Pyramids", and four "coloured" balls shall be placed, thus:

''the yellow ball on the centre of the D, the brown ball on the centre spot, the green ball on the pyramid spot at the apex of the triangle of red balls and the blue on the billiard spot. The player plays with the white ball and from the D when in hand.''

The value of the balls shall be: Red 1, Yellow 2, Green 3, Brown 4, and Blue 5.... -

Reddog78 (talk) 16:10, 11 October 2023 (UTC)


 * In a letter written by Captain F. Sheldrick from Calcutta, dated 2 February 1886, he describes playing a game called "snookers" at Rangoon. It had 15 reds as above, and the Yellow, Brown, and Green in the same places as above "put on the spots up the centre of the table." But instead of the blue ball being on the billiard spot, the black ball was, as it is in snooker today. -
 * Thank you. Reddog78 (talk) 17:09, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It may not be encyclopedic (i.e., it may be WP:INDISCRIMINATE) to attempt to catalogue every minor variant of ancestral versions of the game that were informally played among some British officers in India. Not feeling strongly either way about it, just suggesting it needs consideration.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:59, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Of course I know what you mean with regards to cataloguing every minor variant of the game. I just find it interesting that's all, to compare the variants to modern snooker and find the similarities. Reddog78 (talk) 18:06, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Back in the day, when I was collecting rulebooks, I considered doing a "History of eight-ball" article that was going to cover all the rule changes over time, but gave up on it as a difficult task and of questionable "encyclopedic-ness". For snooker, it might be more pertinent to cover the origin variations, without poring over all the rule changes in the later game. But someone might disagree and want to cover all those, too. Not trying to impose my will. Just kind of asking the question.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:16, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Yes origin variations might be better rather than rule changes. And generally all I have been typing about about above is the game of pyramids, and then different coloured balls were introduced to the reds down the centre of the table at various times. Regards. Reddog78 (talk) 18:34, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Right. Overall I lean toward it being pertinent, though I'm wondering whether the history section might not better split out to a History of snooker side article.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:18, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Or it could just be summarised in the history section of this article, maybe something like:
 * "By 1884, four coloured balls had been added to the fifteen red balls: In the order of sequence of yellow, green, brown and blue, each ball was placed on one of the four spots down the centre of the table, beginning with the yellow on the middle of the D spot which was worth two points. And ending with the blue on the billiard (black) spot, which was worth five points. A variation was played in 1886, whereby the black took the place of the blue ball."
 * The only reason I quoted the 1884 rule (which by the way are the earliest rules of snooker I can find on the internet), is because I find it interesting regarding the fact that the yellow, green, brown, and blue are all each worth exactly the same amount of points that they are in today's game. And the highest numbered ball was the one on the billiard spot as it is today too.
 * Thank you. Reddog78 (talk) 06:47, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that is kind of interesting, actually.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:15, 12 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that is kind of interesting, actually.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:15, 12 October 2023 (UTC)