Talk:Social democracy

Is social democracy socialist or not?
The page begins with "Social democracy is a political, social, and economic philosophy within socialism that supports economic democracy", before it later changing to "within the framework of a capitalist-orientated mixed economy", before later changing again back to "the most common form of Western or modern socialism, as well as the reformist wing of democratic socialism", before again changing to "a left-wing political ideology that advocates for a peaceful democratic evolution from laissez-faire or crony capitalism towards social capitalism", before switching back again to saying it was a "dominant political tendency within the international socialist movement".

Is social democracy socialism or not? GeometryCrown (talk) 23:44, 18 September 2023 (UTC)


 * It's socialish. Andre🚐 23:57, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * What is "socialish", do workers directly or indirectly control the means of production, distribution, and exchange, or do they not?
 * Plus even if social democracy is a form of "semi-socialism", that isn't quite what is said in this article which seems to flip flop on whether its socialism or capitalism. GeometryCrown (talk) 00:27, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * It's a mixed economy, but it depends. Andre🚐 00:43, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Social democracy is a system where the workers do not democratically own the means of production; the owning class (bourgeoisie) and government does; it is liberal capitalism with a strong social safety net and some key-industries nationalized, and therefore not socialist. The article should reflect this. A Socialist   Trans Girl  06:22, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * No - socialism is a range, and a mixed economy can have some socialized industries. Anyway, you need a reliable source, not just logic and opinions on definitions. Andre🚐 15:09, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Sources seem to support it being a part of socialism but inherently capitalist in nature. — Czello (music) 15:24, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Social democracy (which is admittedly still a big tent) historically did emerge from the socialist tradition, and it seems to me it was formerly much more common to use the terms more or less interchangeably; but I feel the introduction to this article has problems -- it is overly specific in its descriptive claims, and it fails to distinguish between the historical and theoretical features of social democracy on the one hand and the politics of contemporary parties in the tradition on the other. Quite plainly, "maintaining socialism as a long-term goal" does not generally apply to contemporary social democratic parties. Knot Lad (talk) 20:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Its not that easy. Historically, in this case, means pre-1990s. The 90s is when every social democratic party of Europe moved towards a liberal consensus, from Tony Blair, to Lionel Jospin, to the successors of Olof Palme (in Sweden, yes. That's also why modern Swedish socdems might not like Bernie Sanders calling Sweden socialist), to Schröder, and the list goes on.... But even here the line isn't that clear. Tony Blair claimed the term democratic socialism for his reforms. In France socialism meant, and means, essentially reformist socialism, the rest being labeled communism. Lionel Jospin used 'modern socialism' as not a term but a descriptor for the evolution of socialism.. not really an easy way to define things. Also, democratic socialism was a term also used by Oskar Lafontaine in 1990, before Schröder, so that complicates things. But generally social-democracy is part of a wider socialism, which vaguely wants more social justice and a better welfare state. Cheers. Encyclopédisme (talk) 12:03, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
 * The idea that social democracacy is socialist is not generally accepted.
 * Social democracy is not devoted to the private ownership of the means of production but has found its peace with capitalism. Why? Because capitalism is more productive than socialism and, when well-regulated, satisfies the principles of justice outlined above. Conversely, if it turns out that the socialization of the means of production is more productive and consistent with the principles of justice outlined above, then social democracy would favor economic socialism. But social democracy carries no principled commitment to economic socialism. Since such a principled commitment is a defining feature of any socialist theory of justice, it follows that social democracy is not socialism, and, a forteriori, also not democratic socialism. Von Platz J. Social Democracy // The Routledge Handbook of Philosophy, Politics, and Economics. – Routledge, 2022
 * So to write that social democracy is an ideology within socialism violates NPOV (since even if many sources agree with this statement, there are serious sources that disagree). It arose within socialism - this is how it should be written, it will be more neutral. Reprarina (talk) 13:29, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * It originally meant non-Marxist courants of socialism, revolutionary (what you often call communist) and reformist (socialism through gradual reform). After the 1920s it meant exclusively reformist socialism, and after the 1990s it had a move to the center and towards economic liberalism. Your interpretation of socialism is what is commonly called « far-left ». Encyclopédisme (talk) 13:57, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * More precisely, your interpretation, while common (at least in the US), would make major figures like Jean-Luc Mélenchon, or Jeremy Corbyn, or Oskar Lafontaine, not socialist, but moderate social-democrats (most of them would claim both labels, as a side note). Social-democracy is social welfare while not violently usurping the capitalist system, however, it can, in theory, lead to socialism via gradual reform. Encyclopédisme (talk) 14:02, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The point is there is such opinion between at least scholars who write articles for Routledge that social democracy is not socialist. And that is enough for removing "within socialism" from the preface. Reprarina (talk) 14:16, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Nope, since other reliable sources disagree. Encyclopédisme (talk) 14:18, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia does not have a dominant point of view rule, Wikipedia has a neutral point of view rule. Only completely fringe points of view can be ignored. Reprarina (talk) 14:52, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia does go after academic consensus, so essentially, yes, Wikipedia has a dominant point of view rule. This POV can’t be ignored completely, although I think the article has made clear the development of social-democracy, and the debates surrounding it. Since the 1990s, there is a move to the center, and a de-radicalisation. However things don’t always stay the same, they change. The PS of France is moving to the left again under the influence of LFI, the SPD has a left-wing party leader, the PSOE isn't really economically liberal either. In Colombia, Gustavo Petro claims to be a social democrat, yet he openly expresses eco-socialist ideals (he believes that there cannot be a green capitalism), Lula is claiming to be a socialist of the 21 century while doing social-democratic policies, radical communists in Venezuela label Chavez a social-democrat, etc. Social-democracy doesn’t exclude the possibility of a socialist model through reform. Socialism through slow, gradual reform, respecting the democratic institutions, and not by revolution, is reformist socialism. Encyclopédisme (talk) 15:12, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Cherry picking of cases where individual social democratic parties and politicians are seen to favor a transition to socialism in the long term (such as link 25 in the preamble) does not mean that all social democracy is within socialism. Faulty generalization. Reprarina (talk) 15:26, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * These social democratic parties or individuals seem to not see a contradiction between socialism and social-democracy. The exemples I cited show that the only reason some sources claim social-democracy is not socialist, the development towards the Third Way, is developing and changing itself. It is a fact that since the late 2010s, social-democracy in general is having a move to the left again. Social-democracy is one ideology, and some experts and politicians believe that it’s third way version is not socialist. However, even there, things aren’t black and white, since other third wayers, such as a certain Tony Blair, do claim the term « democratic socialism ». Social-democracy on its own was and, to a lesser extent, is viewed as reformist socialist (reformist socialism, defined by people such as Jean Jaurès, not Marx). Encyclopédisme (talk) 16:16, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * There are a plethora of sources cited that say it's part of socialism. — Czello (music) 16:08, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * If this were the only non-fringe point of view, then there would be enough of them. Reprarina (talk) 16:39, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * It’s not about fringe or not fringe. WW2 started in 1939, and social-democracy is a part of the socialist ideology and movement. The majority of reliable sources say so. End of debate. In this case the reasons why some variations of social-democracy since the 1990s might not be socialist are explained. Did you even read the article? Encyclopédisme (talk) 16:46, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The scientific consensus that WW2 started in 1939 is much more clear than "scientific consensus" that social democracy is within socialism. Reprarina (talk) 17:04, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * True. Nonetheless, it is a scientific consensus. A majority of reliable sources. Maybe you could add this POV in the article, explaining the developments of the Third Way. But the lede is alright. Encyclopédisme (talk) 17:44, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I think it depends a lot on the lens through which you’re viewing it: hardcore capitalists probably see social democracy [SD] as a variant of socialism (e.g. those in the USA who call universal healthcare "socialised medicine") whilst hardcore socialists probably view it as capitalism in sheep's clothing. As a self-described social democrat, I am uncomfortable being labelled either capitalist or a socialist, but instead see SD as occupying a midpoint between full-blown capitalism on the one hand and full-blown socialism on the other. However, it would seem that many people (at least in the West) conceive of capitalism and socialism as binaries, with those in the political 'centre'  be capitalists, albeit moderate and/or socially liberal ones. Adding to the confusion is a combination of factors including:
 * - the fact that centre-left Labor / social democratic parties in many Western European countries bear the name "Socialist Party";
 * - the adoption of neo-liberal economic policies by, and general rightward rightward drift of, pretty much every 'social-democratic' party in Europe and Australasia beginning in the 1980s;
 * - many progressive Democratic Party politicians in the USA describe themselves and/or their politics as "democratic socialist" when they really mean "social democratic", possibly because the term "Social Democrat" would confuse many people?
 * Aeronius aus (talk) 11:55, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, if there is a significant number of academic sources that do not consider social democracy to be a variant of socialism, then the opposite view, even if it is shared by some majority of political scientists, should not be presented as fact. We should not confuse facts with majority opinion. Reprarina (talk) 04:05, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Do we have a substanial number of academic sources that explicitly say it's not socialist? Because presently we have an abudance that say it is (or at least, "within socialism"). — Czello (music) 07:03, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Using opinion pieces as a source?
This quoted piece cites two opinion pieces rather than academic papers. Is this really good conduct? Citing two academics and saying "described by academics" gives a false implication of a scholarly consensus.

"As a policy regime, it is described by academics as advocating economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal-democratic polity and a capitalist-oriented mixed economy." Allmänbildare (talk) 22:56, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

Socialism and economic democracy (and citation bloat)
I think it's misleading to imply in the first line that economic democracy is one of the two main pillars of social democracy. I think this should be removed. I also think it should be clarified that today social democracy no longer stands for overturning the capitalist system. I'm not opposed to discussion of economic democracy or social democracy's more radical roots later down the page. But this is the principal definition that most readers will encounter on this page and currently it gives off the impression that social democracy is more radical than it is. This talk page is proof of how much confusion this is causing.

There's also citation bloat. There isn't a need for nine different sources for a single line. Oakley Kim (talk) 06:00, 26 December 2023 (UTC)


 * You need sources to prove your claims. It would be incorrect and misleading to change an article based on subjective opinions. Allmänbildare (talk) 00:37, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok well, let me make the case then that the sources that are presently cited don't quite justify the current placement of economic democracy. Wintrop (1983) says that "originally the term social democracy denoted a concern to make the values of democracy apply to social and economic life..." so this is only supporting evidence regarding a definition of 19th century social democracy. Moreover, the author goes on to explain how social democracy changed and moderated according to its circumstances. Archer (1995) more strongly asserts social democracy as a tradition of economic democracy, but most of his work is discussing the potential future of social democracy, not explaining it as such. Archer's work reads to me as showing that besides a few notable experiments, political democracy and establishing a welfare state historically took priority—and these I would argue are more suited as the implied core pillars of social democracy. Ritzer (2004) references the Meidner plan (one of the experiments cited by Archer) which was indeed a bold and novel effort towards economic democracy. But it was only implemented in a watered-down form and then abandoned by the SAP. (More precisely, the right wing shut it down whilst in power and the SAP never reintroduced it.) So my interpretation of Ritzer is the same as with Archer. (As for Jones, unless I missed it or accessed the wrong version, I don't see a mention of economic democracy.) Oakley Kim (talk) 07:20, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The main problem with this and related articles is that the topic is not defined. Social democracy can mean different things. Therefore what the article says about the topic will be contradictory. TFD (talk) 10:50, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Consensus and Vandalism
@Czello @TFD There was a consensus on the lead of this page, achieved by us 3 and others. Over the last 6 months or more I have noticed some editors have sporadically edited the lead intro without reaching a new consesus in the talk page first. The accumulated effect of these individual edits have led to the intro to change almost without recognition. I have only seen @Czello make some edits and request people go to the talk page first. But unfortunately I see this hasn't worked. I propose the lead returns to the previous edit that matches the consesus otherwise I believe steps might have to be taken protect this page. Erzan (talk) 15:57, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * As I said above, the definition is not sufficiently clear. For example, is Jeremy Corbyn a social democrat? TFD (talk) 17:09, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This is not a direct answer to the issue I raised. So I am returning the intro lead page back to when @Czello last edited it without the individual edits, which stated changes to the lead intro required a new consesus in the talk page. Is that ok with you @Czello because otherwise this page will become a edit war. Erzan (talk) 18:15, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * After the lengthy discussions we had previously I do think the lead would require consensus for new changes or wording. — Czello</i> (<i style="color:#8000FF">music</i>) 19:24, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * This page has been subjected to repeat vandalism and some editors inserting opinions with dubious sources which has undermined the consesus that was built after a very long discussion, a process which involved arduous discussion and seeking the attention and opinions of others to settle disputes. I see little to no incentive to restart that process because the same editors are contributing to the breakdown of consesus. Erzan (talk) 20:37, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * In any article, unless there is an edit war, the existing version is the consensus version. It remains so until the next unchallenged edit is made. Of course people are able to edit articles.
 * If you disagree with an edit, you should reverse it providing reasons. If the other editor reverts you, you should set up a discussion explaining why you oppose the edit. The fact that you and a few other editors at one point agreed to the current wording does not mean you own the article.
 * However, the fact that your consensus did not clearly define the topic means that you have no argument against anything another editor adds so long as it is sourced.
 * To use my example, if the topic were defined, you would be able to tell me if Corbyn is a social democrat because he meets some definitions while not meeting others. TFD (talk) 06:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with this. Vandalism was not my intention. Oakley Kim (talk) 07:48, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

In South Africa and social market economy
The "In South Africa" section has nothing to do with the section its under ("Social democracy and democratic socialism"). It also doesn't seem to fit elsewhere in the article as its content is rather specific to South Africa, not social democracy in general. I propose this be removed.

Also regarding this line: "It is a left-wing political ideology that advocates for a peaceful democratic evolution from laissez-faire or crony capitalism towards social capitalism, sometimes also referred to as a social market economy." This line is unsourced and also untrue. The social market economy is a liberal concept/model, not social democratic (i.e. tied to the socialist tradition) even if it may have similarities with the latter in practice. I think this to be removed also. Oakley Kim (talk) 02:57, 9 January 2024 (UTC)


 * The problem with the article is that it conflate various topics referred to as social democracy. Some people for example refer to social welfare programs that exist in most advanced nations as social democracy, while some restrict the term to the ideology of the German Social Democratic Party. TFD (talk) 15:51, 13 June 2024 (UTC)