Talk:Sorcerer

WP:RM
Move to Sorceror?

I'd prefer to see Sorceror as a redirect to Magic (paranormal). violet/riga (t) 23:24, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree. Sorcery redirects there; sorcerer should, too.  -Sean Curtin 04:50, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * I disagree. Sorcery redirecting to Magic (Paranormal) makes sense since both deals with categories as a whole. However both Sorcerer and Sorceror have taken specific meanings above and beyond having to do with the a genric category of magic. J E Bailey 4 July 2005 13:12 (UTC)


 * Wasn't there some policy proposal that wanted all disambiguation pages as xxx (disambiguation) and all main pages (xxx) to redirect to them? 132.205.95.65 20:08, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, but it was never made into policy. -Sean Curtin 00:37, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

Redirect target
This shouldn't be pointing to Magic (paranormal) this should be pointing to the Sorcerer (disambiguation) page. J E Bailey 4 July 2005 13:04 (UTC)

Seperated definitions
Not seeing a better way to do this I created a seperate disambiguation page for Sorcery and moved the  Sorcery! and Sourcery wikilinks to that. I believe it makes better sense as disambiguation are for pages of the same name J E Bailey 6 July 2005 16:59 (UTC)

Merger proposal
There's not enough difference between Sorcerer and Sorceress to warrant two distinct disamb. pages. There certainly aren't male/female pages for Magician (paranormal) or Magician (fantasy), which is where most people would end up clicking through to. Andareed (talk) 07:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I would agree with the merge if Sorcerer and Sorceress were articles, but they are not; they are disambiguation pages. Someone searching for a topic with "Sorcerer" in the title is not likely to be interested in topics with "Sorceress" in the title; as such, a "See also" entry on each other's pages should be sufficient.  Powers T 19:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * A merge would be a bad idea. See, "sorcerer" and "sorceress" may have similar meanings, but the terminology is a bit different. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 21:21, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I see no reason why that difference could not be expounded on a merged disambiguation page. bd2412  T 04:30, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Merger of sorceress into sorcerer
I am writing a thesis on the development of the role of the sorceress in Western Literature, and I was disappointed to find no specific page for "sorceress", and no list of those famous literary sorceresses, beginning with the so-called harlot in the Sumerian "Gilgamesh", Circe and Medeia of the Greeks, the Medieval Morgan le Fay, and culminating with 20th century characters such as Jadis of Charn, Irian of Earthsea, and perhaps even the Sorceress of the Scorpion King. I do not agree therefore that "sorceress" should be subsumed into its male equivalent, when there is good evidence to show that the female literary, if not actual, occurrence of the type precedes and vastly outnumbers the male.Greatsorceress (talk) 20:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * There's no specific male page either. The sorcerer page is a disambiguation page and most people will end up going to Magician (paranormal) or Magician (fiction). There's also no female specific actress page, although we can likely agree that there are a significant number of female actors. Andareed (talk) 21:41, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

It is my non-professional, possibly male bias, chauvinistic, opinion of occult divination and sorcery that all the elements being earth, wind, fire, and water, are a reflection of the feminine representation manifestation. This being said it is possible for one to perceive the masculine as an inferior being, dominated by the female's ability to procreate man. Which I gather is the source of man's(all of humanity not just the masculine) toil. The rub lies in the ultimate question "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" or "what is the meaning of life?". Looks can be deceiving, while it seems that simple minded men go to great lengths to woe a woman's heart, and many do, only to find themselves more miserable than they were alone, hence the garage. Balance can only be realized when the feminine surrenders the dominating power of the elements to lead a life that is above material possessions. The feminine possesses the power through the elements to reduce the masculine to despotism. In the end of this duality the feminine will only destroy herself. Masculine principals are not bound by the four elements. Men break the earth, block the wind, tame the fire, and carry the water. Sorry women I just have never seen you out in the field steering a plow, building a house, fighting forest fires, or building an aqueduct. You may have taken our place for a brief moment while we were getting slaughtered on the beaches of Normandy, wanna trade places? The feminine therefore does not possess the power to govern an estate or even raise children for that matter. How many undisciplined children would there be if mothers couldn't say, "just wait till your father gets home". A man's presence in a balanced situation does not even require the threat of violence. The children could have been good all day with no complaints from mother. However the moment in which the masculine is present and given authority by the feminine divine everyone involved listens to their own heart and "behaves" to what they know is right. The feminine does not possess this quality no matter her position of authority without surrendering that the source of her power is governed by the masculine divine. I hope whoever is reading this has an open mind. I'm really not trying to be a pig about all this. Thus, the effect of divination, put to use, is that which has risen from the elements to manifest a plausible substance, ether. Ether is the representation of the masculine. Therefore I have concluded, in my opinion, that balance, from a holistic perspective, is sustained when the feminine has become content in her service to the masculine. The masculine by nature has already submitted himself to the service of the almighty God. Making him a servant to all of man. Sorcery is the proprietor of alchemy. Alchemy is the quest to re-member the knowledge of the elements to obtain lead from gold, or turn a seemingly worthless substance into something of value. Lead being a metaphor for misery and suffering, gold being a metaphor for happiness or the cessation of suffering. Therefore I believe that a Sorcerer is a nominal title given to a man who is earnest and fair in all his intentions public and private, being sensitive enough to the needs of his family, at the same time earning the respect of his fellow man, a Sorceress being the evidence of Man's achievement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.222.130.124 (talk) 01:15, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 6 February 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: consensus not to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Note similar recent results at Talk:Magician (fantasy) and Talk:Wizard. Dekimasu よ! 00:53, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

Sorcerer → Sorcerer (disambiguation) – Magician is a disambiguation page because it is equally likely to be used for an entertainer who does sleight-of-hand tricks as for a practitioner of actual paranormal arts. Sorcerer has no such dichotomy. The primary topic of the term will always be Magician (fantasy), and all other uses are literal references to this meaning (particularly the character classes, which are just a kind of paranormal fantasy magician). Move this page to redirect to Magician (fantasy) (or, possibly, to move Magician (fantasy) to this title, which is more natural and concise). bd2412 T 01:28, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose, and move primary to Magician (paranormal) or the direct page Magic (paranormal). As a noun 'sorcerer' means magician or wizard, coming directly from its use as an alternate name for an adept in the paranormal. And a move of this magnitude would also be related to sorceress and sorcery. Maybe edging into RfC territory. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:26, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose = no clear explanation as to what would happen to Sorcerer after the move.... WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT? I don't see a clear target for it between Magician (fantasy) and Magician (paranormal). Anyway, the current disambig page works well and perfectly mirrors Sorceress and Sorcery. -- Netoholic @  04:48, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * While at some point the terms were moved to the disambiguation pages, the 2005 RM at the top of this page argued that this is a redirect to Magic (paranormal). That's some weight of prior advice to redirect to that page as primary. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:52, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * A 13-year old conversation with only a couple participants isn't really relevant, in my view. -- Netoholic @ 06:47, 6 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Oppose, both the paranormal article and the fantasy article are viable targets for the same group of terms. Neither should be considered primary topic for any of them. It's warlock that's the outlier. &mdash;Xezbeth (talk) 06:02, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose No clear primary redirect for it.ZXCVBNM (TALK) 07:29, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Support suffixing all dab pages with "(disambiguation)", and this means Sorcerer is to redirect to Sorcerer (disambiguation). Oppose the nom's intention, there are many entries on the DAB page, including the wiktionary link, it serves well as it is.  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:31, 8 February 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.