Talk:Space Runaway Ideon

Evangelion: Homage or Plagiarism?
I feel there should be some mention of the fact that there is debate whether Neon Genesis Evangelion is an homage of Space Runaway Ideon, or if it is a blatant plagiarism. Tomino himself has publicly accused Anno of the latter. Gunso 22:11, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Destroying the Universe
The counter arguement to the universe being destroyed at the end of Be-Invoked is based upon a Hong Kong bootleg of Ideon, and they are notorious for having wildly innaccurate subtitles --Anon.


 * (Reply)
 * Like much of Ideon's ending, whether the universe is actually destroyed is up to interpretation. Do you literally see the universe being destroyed?  No, you don't.  You see a massive explosion getting bigger and bigger, blowing up all the planets around it, then it just ends and shifts to the scene with all of the character's 'souls'.  So whether the damage was going to continue and destroy everything, or whether it just blew up the planets that we saw blow up is a mystery. But throughout the series it was said that if the Ide's power was released, the entire universe could be destroyed (I believe this is also said at the end of the 'A Contact' compilation movie).  So maybe it did happens.  Who knows.  Its something I'm going to have to comb through my Ideon books for to see what they say.  I'm fairly certain that the later published Victory Gundam vs. Ideon book literally said that the universe was destroyed and remade though.  Is that book officially from Tomino?  Thats one thing I'm not sure of.


 * Unfortunately this issue has been taken hostage by a number of fanboys. Why does everyone on the web say that "Ideon destroys the entire universe?"  Because fanboys in versus threads say thats what happened.  They jump in to many super robot arguments and say "Ideon blew up the universe, argument over".  And of course out of all the fanboys that say this I bet none have even seen Be Invoked.  I've seen the phrase "Cosmo destroys the universe with the Ideon Gun" before, which shows how delusional many of these people are.  I personally, who first saw Ideon about 3 years ago and over the past year and a half have been fansubbing it, had kept hearing about that "destroy the universe" thing too though, and this was back when Ideon wasn't talked about at all in english on the web outside of the occasional discussion.  My personal opinion has always been that the universe was indeed destroyed although I'll admit that going into it thats what I expected happened since thats what I'd been told. Until the matter is settled I'd agree with leaving the "Ideon destroys the universe" statement out of the article. Quiddity99 00:53, 14 January 2007 (UTC)Quiddity99


 * Maybe a compromise. How about detonates and causes devastation on a galactic scale (although some argue that it is A new Big Bang that Destroys the universe) 68.9.223.94 15:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I watched the end of "Be Invoked" again and notice the following: in the first shot you see a massive explosion getting bigger and bigger, blow up the planet next to it; in second second you see it blow you two more planet. And both shots are close up and you see no other planet and star involved in the shots. In the third shot it zoom out to a ultra wide shot where you see a lots of star behind, and you also see some red spot in the middle left of the screen. And then those soul started talking to each others.


 * Is this already represent the universe has been destroyed? IF, the explosion continue in the third shot, wipe out a lot more star and planet, then the statement may be more valid. What the visual represent to me is like ... hmm, let say earth is going to explode. In the first shot  we see the earth is in the middle, Mars is next to it, then wipe out by the explosion. In the second shot we zoom little wide and see Jupiter and Saturn is within the range of the framing, wipe out by the explosion too, and then in the third shot we see the universe. My point is if this explosion is meant to destroy the entire universe, visually it should look like that, there should be at least one shot seeing a lot of star and star system is destroyed, but we don't!


 * I didn't read any books of Ideon's behind the scene setting and story. From what we can seen in the story, my own interpretation on this is: Ide DID NOT destroy the "entire" universe, but at most destroyed a huge area in the universe (represent in the third shot mention before), and responsible to the extinct of both human and buff clan race. (and to their home planet). If this interpretation is correct, you should later see some planet or even life should exist, and yes, those shots exist.


 * If you continue to watch the scene of "Be Invoked" where those soul talking to each other, you will later notice there is a Jupiter like planet, then there is some monster like life exist on a planet, and before those soul gather, we also saw three more planet and not to mention the very last shot those soul back to a earth like environment.


 * Of course one can argue that the universe has already "reset" in the third shot, but from the hint given in the story I can hardly agree so. --GJ 13:18, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd have to agree (having just finished watching Shin-Getter's fansubs of the series and Be Invoked). The universe being destroyed would be conveyed by some shot like the explosion engulfing the camera's viewpoint and everything fading to white, or something like that. It wouldn't be depicted by destroying some stuff and immediately doing a long zoom to see some red spots. The Earth humans and the Buff Clan had been essentially destroyed between the constant battles and the meteors and the complete destruction of both Earths. Destroying the universe would be a bit redundant - the intelligent life forms were already dead!
 * Besides, if the universe was destroyed, why did we see the worm-things from the early episodes while the spirits were flying around? --Gwern (contribs) 03:36 22 March 2007 (GMT)


 * Some more stuff, at the end of Episode 32, the Ideon used the Ideon Gun and damaged the asteroid ring around the planet, with one moon. At the end of Be Involved, the souls fly pass a planet, with one moon, with the damaged asteroid ring. Same planet? (75.86.172.80 04:27, 6 May 2007 (UTC))

Just one more thing on shot 3. If you look almost frame by frame, you should notice the red spot first shaking and divided into 3 spot, then some lightray rush out from the spot, and at last the red spot steadily back to one spot. This look like a hint for the previous explosion. --GJ 21:06, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Triggering the Ideon ending in Super Robot Wars Alpha 3
Its been a subject of debate, but in the end the arguments are all invalid. The Ideon ending is NOT triggered by how often the Ideon goes to its maximum gauge level. The ending is triggered by two things


 * Weither the player takes the "Ideon route" in the mid 50's instead of the "Gunbuster route".


 * A certain decision made in scenerio 56 when the Ideon route is taken. One averts the ending, while the other initiates it.

This has been proven by extensive playthrough by multiple players of the game. On my second and third playthrough I abused Ideon's gauge system relentlessly, and saved right before the Ideon/Gunbuster path split. When I took the Gunbuster route, nothing happened. Went on as usual. When taking the Ideon route, when choosing the decision to avert the Ideon Ending it was averted...and taking the one that triggers it as usual triggered it.

It has NOTHING to do with the Ideon Gauge. Its a redundant argument, please don't continue it. The games' already been played in and out....we'd know by now...--Kiyosuki 13:54, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorting out good info
The following comment includes some good info, but also a lot of gushing that lacks a source. "The titular mecha of the series, the Ideon itself is widely regarded as one of the most powerful giant robots in Japanese Animation history, if not the most powerful. Anime has seen a lot of very powerful mecha over the years but very few if any can boast the destructive capability the Ideon possesses. Powered by the mysterious sentient energy Ide, the Ideon's combat prowess becomes incredible as it see's more combat. The ide also powers Ideons' strongest weapons such as the Black Hole Cannon, Ideon Sword, and Ideon Gun. At a poignant point in the series, the Ideon uses Ideon Sword to actually cut an entire planet in half, and Ideon Gun destroys pretty much anything in its path. Some anime mecha come rather close to matching Ideons' power such as Gunbuster's titular mecha, but generally no other mech in Anime history has matched the destruction Ideon can cause."

Maybe the following whould be more appropriate, doesn't fit well in the trivia section but fits worse everywhere else: "The Ideon is portrayed as perhaps the most powerful giant robot in all anime. At one point in the series, for instance, the Ideon uses its sword to cut an entire planet in half. This level of destructive power is akin to only a few other giant robots in anime, such as that of the Gunbuster series." &mdash;Tarnas 05:15, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Its good. Whatever works. I think its good trivia myself, I've seen a lot of Giant Robot anime and I can safely tell you that the Ideon is really the potentially most destructive robot in all of fiction. This is especially so when you consider the ending.. I think its worth note.--68.233.141.149 00:23, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

The Idol from Tenchi Muyo GXP is more powerful.

Size
I also included the size as stated in Super Robot Wars Alpha 3 (Since Banpesto, the company that made the SRW series is owned by Bandai and is often in close relation with Sunrise studios which pretty much makes the sizes canon information) But I'm aware that there may be a difference in the metric systems between Japan and the Western countries. Ideon itself is listed at 105.0 meters in a Japanese game but if there's some kind of metric difference I'd greatly appreaciate the correction. Math was never my specialty unfortunatly.


 * I'm pretty sure there is no such thing as a 'metric variance.' The metric system is, by design a universal system of measure designed and implemented in order to eliminate the need to convert between local systems of measure.

With the list of giant mecha sizes, wasn't Diebuster pretty big too? It was about as tall as Earth's diameter. Dunno if you would count it as mecha though..

Topics

 * We need to integrate the trivia section into the main article...how about creating topics highlighting the "Themes", "Concepts" and "Weapons" of Ideon? We also need a mech list as well. Terek 00:02, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No, I'd say we don't need a mecha list. That belongs on a fanpage, not an encyclopedic article. Kouban 01:44, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Something's wrong with this paragraph...
"Yoshiyuki Tomino's name comes up in the story, as Amuro explains the myth of Giant God (the events of the Ideon series) to Judau, suggesting that he exists in the Gundam world much the same way Marvel Comics and its more prominent staff members such as Stan Lee exist within their own world."

Trivia Section
I think the trivia section is quickly becoming a mess filled with a lot of OR. The consensus on wikipedia has been that Trivia sections should generally not exist, but rather that the material be spread out in relevant parts of the article. While I think the trivia section definately contains material that is of value to this article, I think we should consider moving all the content out of that section and into either existing sections, or create new sections (for example, a section discussing the Ideon robot itself may be of value; its probably not enough at this point to warrant its own article). I feel that the stuff talking about whether Ideon is the most powerful robot ever should likely be removed entirely unless we can find any sort of reference for it. This is coming off as a discussion that would be had at an anime messageboard. Thoughts? Quiddity99 (talk) 03:07, 12 November 2008 (UTC)Quiddity99
 * I agree entirely. Kouban (talk) 01:23, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Okay, let's see how we're looking...
Right, I've given this a bit of a rewrite. More of a reorder, actually...


 * I do think the Ideon's power levels deserve some sort of reference - it's one of the reasons people hear of the series. I've tried to salvage a lot of stuff from the Trivia section, and just toned down the language a little, avoid absolute claims and stick to what was shown explicitly on screen (e.g. the Ideon Gun was never shown to wipe out a galaxy - regardless of your interpretation of the end of Be Invoked, the Ideon Gun is left on the Solo Ship before the 'one point attack'). Hopefully having a section on the robot kills two birds with one stone, mentioning the robot's power levels (which were exceptional for the time, and remain a notable feature of the series) and cutting down the rather overgrown trivia section.


 * Any direct comparison with a specified robot, like the Gurann Lagann or anything else isn't for this page... I've left references to that and Gunbuster in, but mainly as a "these names come up in comparison" thing. I'm not sure if even this is too much. Also, we don't want the article bogged down in the same fanboy arguments.


 * The destruction of the universe at the end is viewer interpretation stuff - I don't think it was wiped out, but I think it's fairer to say it can be argued either way on an article like this.


 * I've left it be, but to me the SRW section is overlong - there's more in there than there is on the anime itself (and also hardly any mention of the Ideon on th 3rd SRW Alpha page, while Final F doesn't even seem to have an article). I'm no expert on the games, but does anyone fancy compacting this down to more reasonable levels?


 * I've cut the trivia about Sugiyama's work on Dragonquest - that's information about Sugiyama himself, not Ideon. I'm not sure on the same with Kakinouchi - I'm not big on general anime knowledge. Is this, say, the equivalent to Scorcese working as an editor on Woodstock? Or is this just a Kakinouchi fan slipping in an irrelevant name-check?


 * I know we have a separate page for characters, but does anyone think a brief run down on the central characters (say, Cosmo/Kasha/Bes/Karala/Harulu/Gije/Sheryl?) with a line or so each would help here?

Anyway, just throwing out some thoughts.

Tom Prankerd (talk) 17:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Good job! Now we just need to find a way to work the rest of the trivia into the article so we can eliminate that section entirely.  Putting in a character section is a good idea, also expanding the plot section (which I could probably do) would seem to make sense as well. Quiddity99 (talk) 00:21, 16 December 2008 (UTC)Quiddity99


 * Cheers.


 * * For Kakinouchi, I'm thinking if her role is that important, surely it could be fitted in at the top of the article... if her role on Ideon isn't this significant, does it actually warrant a mention?


 * * For the DS drive data, this can probably be shoe-horned into the story summary I would think... The Solo Ship isn't really remarkable enough in the grand scheme of things to justify a section (aside from the barrier, it's not really much more advanced than any of the Buff Clan ships). I'll have a look at this.


 * * Having looked at it, the plot part does need a bit of a look at... Most of it is a synopsis of the first episode, with very little else... I might try to hammer together a bit more of an all-encompassing summary, which I'll probably dry-run here as well.


 * * I do think the destruction of both Earths possibly merits mention in the "Kill 'Em All" section, as it's a good example of the film's apocalyptic nature without providing something that is open to viewer interpretation.


 * * Is it worth mentioning that the new animation in A Contact actually changes events? The film almost forms its' own micro-continuity, seeing as several aspects don't quite synch up to Be Invoked...


 * * One thing I do find very interesting about the series is that the colonists and the Buff Clan have different names for things (Ideon/Giant God, Solo/Logo Dau) - I'm wondering if this is notable enough to work into the article?


 * One bit I'm curious about (I'm not questioning it, just wondering) is where does the series being set in 2300 come from? I didn't notice any references in the series, but then I don't know any Japanese and am reliant on subs (as in the Shin-Getter fansubs, not the dodgy bootleg ones featuring the Barfclay, Base, Universe and so on!). Is it from a manga or something?


 * A bit of curious trivia (not really for the article, but it's always intrigued me) I've noticed watching Be Invoked is that seconds before the Gando Rowa detonates, a Buff Clan ship (http://counter-x.net/ideon/films/be_invoked/gallery/original/be_invoked231.jpg) can be seen to enter null space before the explosion (there's even the null space sound effect) - it's odd that Tomino or someone went to the trouble to explicitly show a ship containing generic characters escaping the big explosion. Unless I missed something...


 * Tom Prankerd (talk) 14:19, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Frankly, I think the Kakinouchi thing should be pulled entirely. That information can go on the page for that particular animator if its so important. It has no relevance to Ideon. The DS Drive could either be worked into the Ideon section or removed entirely. The destruction of the Earths can be mentioned in the revamped plot summary. I think it would make sense to split the plot into series - movies, perhaps the differences (like the deaths of Mayaya and Daram and removal of Ome Foundation) could be put there? I don't think the name differences is a big deal, but could be references slightly in a plot summary.  I frankly can't recall if the series ever mentioned the year 2300, but many of my Ideon books use that year. The transporting ship has always been a big mystery to me. I've heard it theorized that it was an animation mistake before, that's about it.  It clearly makes no sense in terms of the storyline.  And finally... glad to hear you saw it through Shin Getter (I was the translator for them and also did the timing for Be Invoked) ;) I think that covers everything.


 * I've put in an initial draft of a plot summary, which is a somewhat pruned version of the one I used on my now deceased Ideon website. I also removed the trivia section entirely (only 2 minor things were left), and made some edits to the Response and Links sections.Quiddity99 (talk) 00:05, 17 December 2008 (UTC)Quiddity99


 * Looking good! I was thinking about the DS drive, and it's a bit of a minor detail really, isn't it? It's just hyperdrive/warp speed with a different name, and a similar concept features in a lot of space-based series, especially post-Star Wars.

Tom Prankerd (talk) 05:18, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Manga Impact
Manga Impact: The World of Japanese Animation, 6 December 2010, ISBN 978-0714857411; pg 93:

Conceived by Tomino Yoshiyuki immediately after Mobile Suit Gundam (1979), Space Runaway Ideon does not immediately seem to follow the same narrative development of the earlier series. In Gundam, the giant robots were a mass-produced means of combat, whereas the Ideon, the super-robot of the title, is more than a simple automaton. The modular robot is made up of three armored vehicles that were discovered by explorers from Earth abandoned on the distant planet of Solo. Preserved within it is the secret of the mysterious source of 'Ide', a mighty energy source that powers the Ideon's unbeatable weapons. On closer inspection, however, it appears that themes introduced in Gundam have not been entirely abandoned. The mecha design seen in Space Runaway Ideon is of an ordinary standard, but the mature and striking characterization is unusually dramatic for a television series aimed at children. As in Gundam, Tomino's characters are ambiguous, short-tempered people, whose behaviour can not always be described as heroic, while the distinction between the humans and their enemies the 'Buff Clan', a humanoid people from a world similar to Earth, is progressively reduced over the course of the series, leading the viewer to reflect on the senselessness of war. Tomino's direction further emphasizes the dramatic qualities of battle through the use of split-screens and close-up shots, even showing the deaths of various characters in full. For the first time in a commercial series, the director also introduces a profound sense of mysticism - to the extent that Space Runaway Ideon was declared source of inspiration for director Anno Hideaki's Neon Genesis Evangelion (1995), a series that was to rejuvenate the whole robot genre. L.D.C [Lucca Della Casa]

--Gwern (contribs) 19:49 23 December 2011 (GMT)