Talk:Stockholm/Archive 3

Fjollträsk
Is the name Fjollträsk worth mentioning here? I (sort of) explain it with a source at Talk:Fjollträsk. Glades12 (talk) 08:15, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
 * No, in my opinion. Just trying to explain the whole thing to English-readers would be more excessive, tedious and far-flung than it would be worth. Some people way up north have called the capital city "fag squalor" and a few Swedish films & programs have picked up on that. So what? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:21, 18 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Why not? Listed are:
 * Nickname(s): Eken, the Venice of the North, the Venice of Scandinavia,[1] Mälardrottningen.


 * I would say Fjollträsk is far more used in contemporary society?
 * If you use it, and you think it's cutesy-witty & sarcastically poignant in Swedish, and if you think it's a great idea, almost an epiphany, to bring the Swedish homosexual pejorative for "faggot" or "sissy" or "prissy-looloo" into English Wikipedia with it, that's up to you. Why ask "why not?"? Here, it is Swedish-language trivia & for the reasons I've explained it does not belong in the English article. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:41, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

It's used in advertising, films and media so I guess it's ok. Thanks!
 * In Swedish such, yes, On English Wikipedia, no. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:37, 23 September 2020 (UTC)


 * That's the weirdest argument I've ever heard. It is a de facto nickname for Stockholm. So if I provide an advertisement from an English speaking country as a source it would be included? I didn't know advertising campaigns dictated what should be included on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.234.33.218 (talk) 10:02, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * It is trivia at best, in Swedish, not a common nickname. It is of no use to English readers, except perhaps that a few Swedes who do not like Stockholm like to use the homosexual pejorative (faggot slur) involved. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:15, 28 September 2020 (UTC)


 * What are you on about it is a culturally based nickname widely used by people, advertising, media, movies and film and as I linked it is researched in academia. It's more used than "mälardrottningen" so why don't you remove that also? It is de facto the most common nickname and is used widely without prejudice. I'm not promoting anything and you shouldn't argue what I've added but what my sources say. Since now you are just removing well sourced content. Going to add it again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.234.33.218 (talk) 10:54, 28 September 2020 (UTC)


 * As I now have noticed you've been going around calling my sources fake and false elsewhere I'm feeling you're being very dishonest in this discussion. If you want to discuss you shouldn't go around telling lies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.234.33.218 (talk) 11:22, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * We are all supposed to learn and then use WP:Indentation.
 * We are not supposed to use personal attacks when discussing.
 * This is the link that was provided as a source. I do not see the word "Fjollträsk" mentioned anywhere when that link is followed. If anyone else can see it, I'll be glad to admit I'm wrong.
 * One single source promoting a nasty word is not enough here.
 * The main issue here between me and the IP (who apparently is here at en:WP only for one reason: to get this nasty name added to the project) has been reverts done without talking first on this page.
 * We do not add things to articles based only on the opinions of users, and our personal opinions are not relevant to change articles.
 * If they were relevant, I would mention how many years I have lived in Stockholm, how many Stockholmers I deal with on a daily and weekly basis, and the fact that the pejorative "Fjollträsk" may be a popular expression among homophobic dudes in some small town way up north in Sweden, but is absolutely not a common nickname for Stockholm. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 01:02, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Hello! I didn't provide a link at all to the article I provided a DOI which is an identifier used in academia to link to journals and papers. It is the de facto way to reference material in academia. The DOI was provided here: Fjollträsk resolving this DOI provides you with the following text: ''Those we are destined to identify with. The duality between the rural and urban is mainly represented as the duality between an abstract rural space in the North and the capital, Stockholm. Fish (2007) points out that the rural and the city are commonly ‘‘relational spaces of film’’ (Fish, 2007, p. 5), whereby rural space is represented as a space of traditional and often reactionary values. One apparent example of this relational process in the film is when the hunters talk about metropolitan Stockholm as ‘Fjollträsk’ (fjoll from fjollig ¼ effeminate, referring to ‘feminine’ homosexual men, and träsk ¼ swamp, a common word used as part of place names in Vässterbotten and Norrbotten), as if to say that Stockholm is nothing for real men. Since the film was shown for the first time, this appellation of Stockholm has frequently been used in different contexts, in plays and movies and by journalists. ‘Fjolltrösk’ is now regarded as an amusing name for Stockholm and is often used by Stockholmers themselves. ‘Fjollträsk’ has repeatedly been used and circulated in the stereotyping of ‘Norrlanders’ and has become part of the discourse on Norrland as homophobic but also as reactionary in general.4 Thereby, the word is as much an appellation for ‘Norrlanders’ as for ‘Stockholmers’. For instance, a columnist in a Stockholm-based tabloid writes about the Eurovision song contest and the trendy gay community in Stockholm: A real Fjollträsk [Stockholm], but we should be happy about that (Aftonbladet, 11 February 2005, own transl.)....'' (Text got a little garbled from being copied from the PDF)

So don't go around saying I didn't provide a source.

I can also provide you with the DOI oai:DiVA.org:umu-90630 I won't address the other bulletpoints since they are irrelevant to the article but I'll say that the only one doing number 6 is the user who keeps on reverting my addition. Wiktionary lists, among Fjollträsk, also Tokhult and Tjockhult being nick names for the capital elsewhere in Sweden. Currently also Fjollträsk is far more used on google than mälardrottningen and the venice of scandinavia. Stockholm Arlanda (STO) home to all ove these slogans over the years have themselves displayed the "Välkommen till Fjollträsk" banner as seen: https://www.resume.se/marknadsforing/reklam/resenarer-valkomnas-till-fjolltrask/
 * I stand by my points 3, 4, 5, and 6 above.
 * Sources cited are supposed to be readily accessible to a user and contain what they allegedly source.
 * The banner was erected and used only for a movie, never as a regular feature of the airport.
 * These pejorative nicknames may be be common on Internet sites which end up in Google. They are not common as nicknames for Stockholm among regular Swedes or in any non-tabloid publications.
 * If the word is to be mentioned at all in this article, it should not be as a common nickname but as trivia, and should then be clearly noted as a pejorative and derogatory term used in comedy entertainment. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:26, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

The source is readily available as any academic source. I can provide non academic ones but you just have to go to the Swedish article one the subject for that. The banner was not erected for a movie. The nick name is widely used. Why the lies? Why is mälardrottningen listed? You were supposed to contest you were wrong now? Why are you arguing this case based on your opinions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.234.33.218 (talk) 17:13, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Source additions member of parliament refering to the nickname in the riksdag: https://data.riksdagen.se/fil/4034B5D5-EF3A-4FB4-90AE-CB1FF77522DE

Liberal newspaper of note on the subject: https://www.svd.se/stockholm-far-kallas-fjolltrask-3BDR

Social democrat newspaper on the subject: https://www.dn.se/ledare/huvudledare/for-mycket-sjukvard-i-fjolltrask/

Swedish public service radio on the subject: https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/1358907

Swedish public service TV: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/vasterbotten/flygfolk-uppskattar-granskningen

None of these are tabloids. Please stay on the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.234.33.218 (talk) 17:23, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Dick Harrison referencing it https://books.google.se/books?id=bvE5Xhvr3vUC&pg=PA599&lpg=PA599&dq=kungen+fjolltr%C3%A4sk&source=bl&ots=JzaHJvdHlt&sig=ACfU3U2zrAKZ1ZYPYTl0hUbL-x0-1w95Mg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiXlJbb9I7sAhX0AxAIHTLtCY84MhDoATAJegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=kungen%20fjolltr%C3%A4sk&f=false

Finnish newspaper using the nickname: https://www.hbl.fi/artikel/fran-fjolltrask-till-fjallen-svts-nya-serie-ar-ingen-hit/

Swedish Educational Broadcasting Company a educational video about Sapmi (northern minority group) people going to Fjollträsk: https://urplay.se/program/164881-urbana-samer-fjolltrask — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.234.32.197 (talk) 02:47, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Just to summerise my "false", "tabloid" and "unreadily" sources that I have provided as two academic published sources provided with DOI, one from public service television, Sveriges Television, another from public service radio, Sveriges Radio, a member of parliament referencing the nickname in the Riksdag, two newspapers of note Dagens Nyheter and Svenska Dagbladet as well as a noted Swedish contemporary historian Dick Harrison and even a newspaper in Finland that is 10 excellent sources while no one else have raised any concern about them. I also provided that Stockholms Airport carried a banner with the name for a national carriers advertising campaign. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.234.33.218 (talk) 18:21, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Continued talk page problems here:
 * a.We are all supposed to learn and then use WP:Indentation (second request).
 * b. We are all supposed to sign our entries on talk pages (repeatedly ignored).


 * Suggestion: This could be added to the end of the article, properly sourced with the word readily visible in the citation(s):
 * ==Trivia==
 * A pejorative and derogatory name for Stockholm, used mainly in comedy entertainment, is Fjollträsk. It's origins are in the north of Sweden and the meaning of it can be interpreted as homophobic or as satire on homophobia or simpy as sissy squalor.
 * --SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:22, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm new? I'll guess I'll learn? Where are your sources for this? You have yet to provide any while you repeatedly put the burden on me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.234.33.218 (talk) 18:38, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I've written to this IP again & asked that normal talk page formatting be learned & followed. As far as I know even an IP that comes to English Wikipedia only to insist over and over on one single desired addition should follow talk page formatting.
 * The IP's input in English today at Swedish Wikipedia seems to confirm that this is a one-issue campaign by one person who in fact does not know enough Swedish to realize how offensive the word is and may not be reliable on this particular subject about a complicated and controversial Swedish word.
 * There are reliable sources to support my suggested addition above to the article. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:10, 30 September 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry but what are you on about? I have edited Wikipedia plenty of times and never have I met with these kinds of arguments. Please stop talking about me? Since I have yet to hear anything constructive from I must deem your participation in discussion as nothing else but humbug. Please stay on the topic and don't invent conspiracy theories about me. Provide the sources instead.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.234.32.197 (talk) 13:10, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

3O Response: It is not unusual for larger cities to have pejorative nicknames. The simple fact of being mentioned in reliable sources is not enough to satisfy due weight in mentioning one; they'd need to cover in some depth as to why the pejorative is widely known or highly notable. I don't see that here. The suggestion to place it in a "trivia" section also should not be used, since articles should not contain trivia sections at all. If the sources mentioned here are the best available, putting the name into the article in any way would be undue weight. Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:55, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for helping! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:45, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your input! Based on it and the previous discussion I'm removing Mälardrottningen too. Best regards! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.234.34.207 (talk) 09:01, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Monasteries of Saint Bridget of Sweden
According to the Society of Saint Pius X, Stockholm and Vadstena "where Saint Bridget established many monasteries". The source is undoubtedly WP:reliable, but we need to better detail it before citing it within the current article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.223.69.123 (talk) 21:51, 13 July 2021 (UTC)