Talk:Sustainable transport

Merge proposal
Hi. I think we should talk about this. Tell me when you have a moment. ericbritton 13:04, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry but I am not smart enough to figure this out. We really want to bring any seeking reader looking for "sustainable transport” or “sustainable transportation” to the same entry – since they are the same thing just two variants of English driving the term. In the WP today, the latter entry is far more complete. But how to do? Thanks. ericbritton 12:43, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
 * This proposal is too old, almost nobody commented on it, so I am deleting the tag. I am a transportation specialists and this merging does not make any sense.--Mariordo (talk) 21:42, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Just in case, the tag I deleted referred to a merge of Green transport with this article. In the modern use of the term sustainable transport refers to safe, clean and affordable transport, by the short definition used in the World Bank. Green transportation and green vehicles are terms coined by the environmental movement, and now used by the mainstream media and the public. The latter terms are related with the clean part of the sustainable transport definition, particularly to the mitigation of climate change by using clean energy sources and/or low-carbon fuels, though it also includes local pollution. --Mariordo (talk) 00:31, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * For a follow up of this discussion see my additional comments below, and please continue the discussion down there.--Mariordo (talk) 01:56, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

No NPOV dispute?
If there is no one claiming an NPOV dispute on this talk page, someone should remove the template. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.35.55.55 (talk) 03:50, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Umass link
This link: *Anna Nagurney's Fulbright lectures on Sustainable Transportation was added by User:Supernet who appears to be an agent of the site since they are promoting the site across wikipedia. It may be a good site so I've moved it here for consideration by regular editors of the article in keeping with the conflict of interest and external links guidelines. -- Siobhan Hansa 01:52, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion that Sustainable transportation be merged into this article.
--Chriswaterguy talk 01:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Obviously about the same topic.
 * Transportation redirects to Transport.
 * sustainable-transport gets 3 times as many results as sustainable-transportation.


 * I'm fine with the merge, but it's going to spur a whole British "transport" or American "transportation" war. --Thisisbossi 03:04, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I've completed the merge; we'll see if any controversy ensues. --Jrsnbarn 17:16, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Good work, I support the merger. Nick carson (talk) 09:17, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Added citations and edited claims to fit
I've added a number of citations to the article, many of which required a bit of editing to fit the text - eg replacing the general claim that "30% of traffic is trips to school" with "traffic on US roads increases 30% in school term times" (with link)

Maybe I have done enough of this to warrant removal of the "please add citations" tag? I'm not sure the process for this.

I am confused by the split between the section "Evolution of concept 1988 (why 1988?) to present" and the section "A short history of international action". I think these two sections should be merged but this is a pretty radical change for a noob such as myself to be making.

There are also two definitions of "sustainable mobility" offered in close proximity - one referring to alternative vehicle fuels and another to a wider concept which is "increasingly replacing" sustainable transport. A google search just adds to the confusion - there are 281,000 hits for "sustainable mobility" which are split between policy documents and auto shows. So I've left this one - maybe someone else can decide what to do? Travelplanner (talk) 11:28, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Have done more editing, in particular collected together the definitions (I counted 7 unique definitions (2 of which were repeated) sprinkled throughout... have sorted this now into one section (which I still think is too long). Also added a bit more history and international context.  Next task, unless someone has a better idea, is to tackle the "link farm" and incorporate as many links as are really relevant into the text.  Travelplanner (talk) 04:30, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I have further helped in this regard. I have removed all links to articles within the sentences creating all of them ro be citable references instead.  I have made all refs use the same format.  SriMesh |  talk  19:02, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps with what you and I have done, the tag can be removed, and it can site as a C class article, and with more cites and prose and less lists, it may move up a level.SriMesh | talk  03:15, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

POV problems and rewrite suggestion
Many parts of the article are blatantly pro-sustainability, and make claims in favor of a particular political strategy. I don't disagree with this position, but it's not neutral. Examples:
 * "things that have gone visibly wrong with transportation policy"
 * Section title: "The need for sustainable transport"
 * Sustainable transport policies have their greatest impact at the city level.
 * "Sustainable transport is fundamentally a grassroots movement, albeit one which is now recognised as of citywide, national and international significance."
 * Several points where the movement is portrayed as generically growing (sounds like boosterism, replace with referenced statistics or note specific important milestones or changes)

The article also goes on too long about generalities and coverage is almost entirely about the high-level political movement. This article is the top-level one about the environment and transportation as linked to from transport. It needs to have summaries of all the major approaches/technologies that are being used to make transportation more environmentally friendly; the "See also" section is actually a good starting place for an outline, and the links there should be incorporated into the body of the article. Coverage of the history of "sustainable transport" as a unified political movement should be more concentrated as only one part of the article (possibly with subarticle). -- Beland (talk) 19:21, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I think it is worst. A lot of the content of this article actually belongs to green transportation and the definition and background are 100% mistaken. The concerns about the sustainability of transport were actually born among urban planners and transportation engineers and economists since the first oil crisis of 1973. To put it in a nutshell, sustainable transport is about safe, clean and affordable transportation with a scope in the long-term (the World Bank defines it along these lines). Certainly during the last 10 to 15 years the environmental movement gave it a boost to the concept, particularly because of the concerns of climate change. Many of the alternatives and options listed in the article were invented and promoted since the late seventies, and many are becoming mainstream only until now. Examples: high-occupancy vehicle lanes, carpool and transportation demand management in the US. Curitiba implemented the first BRT corridor in the late seventies. Singapore implemented congestion pricing in the late 70s too. Many countries tried ethanol and/or methanol as alternative fuels (no concerns back them with the carbon footprint), though only Brazil succeeded (see Ethanol fuel in Brazil), etc. I think the article should be fixed alone these lines, and move all the content specific to green transportation to the other article. There is also plenty of WP:OR, biased POV or lack of WP:NPOV, and lack of references. The green transport stuff should be kept just as a summary, branching from here to the specific article.--Mariordo (talk) 01:47, 9 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I did add citations and edit this article awhile ago, unfortunately many of the citations have been removed by a subsequent editor which leaves it reading as a personal essay. I didn't have any time to put into this article in the last year, the edit I did was only intended to be a starting point and I left intact a lot of material that I was uncomfortable with, editing as I was on my own.  I am definitely up for editing it as part of a team effort.


 * Mariordo is right, the first and most important question is how this article relates to others. There is a green transportation page and a travel demand management page.  For better or worse this article is mainly about the social movement which sometimes (not always) calls itself "sustainable transport" and has urban walking and cycling as its central concerns.  Much of the content suggested by Mariordo I would put in Travel demand management or biofuels.


 * I haven't found a published set of definitions that helps sort this out, but here is a statement of the definitions as they seem to be in the current set of articles, these probably need to change but just stating them is a starter for a useful discussion:


 * Green transport is a term applied to modes of transport - the "clean" component of "safe, clean and affordable transport". These modes and their relative "green-ness" should be covered in that article.


 * Sustainable transport is a grassroots social movement which aims to create policy and planning shifts towards safe, clean and affordable transport. To date most grassroots organisations in this space have a focus on urban walking, public transport and cycling.


 * Travel demand management is the science of designing transport systems which are more sustainable, using a wide range of mechanisms for reducing car use particularly at peak times.


 * All three articles need work, which adds up to a lot of work.


 * Also note the page view statistics for April - Green transport 788, Sustainable transport 3822, Travel Demand Management 8. This may be an argument for moving from the definitions above to one which puts the good content from Travel Demand Management into this article.--Travelplanner (talk) 11:23, 13 May 2009 (UTC)--Travelplanner (talk) 06:10, 16 May 2009 (UTC)


 * This site provides several comprehensive definitions of Sustainable Transportation from reliable sources, and its relation with TDM. Just in case anyone would like to give it try at least fixing the leading. My favorite is the European Union Council of Ministers of Transport, summarizes very well of the dimensions, not just the environment. See also the World Bank take on sustainable transport.--Mariordo (talk) 14:30, 17 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, based on Litman above, there isn't a single accepted definition of either sustainable transport or travel demand management, but there is considerable common ground between published definitions. The most useful sustainable transport definitions group around the "three sustainabilities" - social (access, safety, equity, health) - economic (affordability, resource efficiency, access again, choice, true cost pricing) - environmental (limit emissions, use renewable resources for fuel and in vehicles, limit noise, support sustainable land use patterns).


 * This is consistent with the idea (suggested by Beland above) that the "social movement" aspect of sustainabile transport is a subheading, not a main focus for the article. Much of what is currently in the lead could go under this subheading.


 * But I don't agree that the "see also" section is a good structure - I think that structuring by mode ("automobile" "bicycles" "public transit" would make some sense in Green transport where the environmental performance of modes could be compared quite straightforwardly, but the minute you look at an issue like equity or health you aren't going to be able to fit it under a heading of (say) "bicycles". I would suggest structuring the article around social / environmental / economic and including lots of specific projects at the city level which show good practice (Curitiba for sure, Sweden and the Netherlands for road safety, Perth for transit-driven economic development, London of course for congestion pricing).

The rewrite starts

 * Here's a draft structure:


 * Lead
 * History/origins inc. definitions
 * Social
 * Social impacts of transport (safety, equity, health, access vs social exclusion)
 * Good practice in transport systems (which system is safest/ healthiest / most equitable)
 * Environmental
 * Environmental impacts of transport
 * Mitigating / managing / minimising environmental impacts
 * Economic
 * The economic importance of transport (in measurable terms, as far as possible)
 * Improving the economic performance of transport systems
 * Transport governance
 * Sustainability in transport governance
 * Sustainable transport as a social movement


 * Comments? changes?  help getting started??--Travelplanner (talk) 11:35, 20 May 2009 (UTC)


 * [[Image:Artículo bueno.svg|right|15px|]] Fully agree with your proposal. Please go ahead. I will help you a bit complementing as my time constraints permit. And please do not forget to move a lot of the info to Green transport and just keeping a summary here.--Mariordo (talk) 02:21, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I've replace the lead. The old lead is at Talk:Sustainable transport/sandbox and I plan to pick it apart for improvements to the Green transport article.  But lots more work to do on this article first.--Travelplanner (talk) 12:00, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You have done a wonderful work, congratulations. I will try to look at it in more detail in the following weeks, and contribute (if necessary) to put it in shape for GAN. Nice work!--Mariordo (talk) 20:36, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I've been involved with a few rewrites now and the best place to start is with a well thought-out structure. I think 'Green Transport' is just a more simplistic and inadequate term for 'Sustainable Transport', perhaps merge the two as was done with another similarly named article. I'd perhaps also include a section of sustainable transport methods (like; Heavy rail, Light rail, etc, etc) and use summary style within each subsection? Nick carson (talk) 09:59, 24 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I like the structure TP's laid out for the article. The current "See also" section is way too long, IMO. The links it contains should perhaps be incorporated into the body text of the article. I agree with Nick that the "Green transport" article should be merged with this one. I've added merge tags to each. Please indicate whether you agree, or not, below. Sunray (talk) 10:05, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Merge of "Green transport" with this article
The Green transport article gets far fewer hits than this article and is not nearly as well-developed&mdash;lacking in references and written like an essay. On the other hand, it does have some content and images that could easily be added to Sustainability transport. Please indicate, by September 1, 2009, whether, or not, you support a merge. Sunray (talk) 10:13, 25 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I seem to be talking to myself way out in this far corner of the internet. If anyone cares to comment, here is the format:


 * Support merge. The two terms are virtually synonymous, "Green transport" content could be easily combined into this article. Sunray (talk) 00:11, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Support merge. Yeah it's quiet here eh?  (don't you love it?)  However IF the two articles are merged there will be a need to move some of the content to Green vehicles (which is a rather good article), lose a bit alltogether and incorporate some into this article.  So it's not a simple merge.--Travelplanner (talk) 09:03, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Strongly opposed merge. As I explained above these are completely different subjects and the fact that the green transport is not well developed does not justified the merger. The key difference is that green transport is a concept/wording developed by the environmental groups, while sustainable transport is a mainstream concept in transport engineering and economics, and obviously they overlap as green transport is a subset of sustainable transport, but some concepts are defined by the environmental ideology rather than pure economics and engineering, and these not necessarily agree.--Mariordo (talk) 00:38, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If the "Green transport" article is to be kept, it seems clear that we should a) make a distinction between the two in the lead of the respective articles, and, b) vastly improve the "Green transport" article. On the latter point, I note that the article has been tagged as reading like a personal essay and lacking in sources. Perhaps we should give some time (say one month) for folks to address these issues. Meanwhile, others are most welcome to weigh in. Sunray (talk) 19:40, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * During the following two weeks I will give a try to at least improve the lead of the GT article, so that the difference between the two subjects is clear.--Mariordo (talk) 23:35, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Merge completed Sunray (talk) 06:46, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

merger of "Alternative Fuels in Buses" into this article
I almost think that Alternative fuels in buses should be deleted, but there might be some information therein that is suitable for this article. If no one supports the merger, then it would be great if someone could do something to improve Alternative fuels in buses. Thanks! Pdcook (talk) 23:46, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

06:51, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree, and, in the absence of any major concerns, will complete the merge on December 12, 2009. Sunray (talk)

GOOD ARTICLE -- BUT NO MENTION WHATSOEVER OF CURRENT USE OF ANIMALS/ PEOPLE FOR TRANSPORT.

IN BAYAMO CUBA, POP 150,000, MORE PEOPLE TRAVEL BY HORSE PULLED COACH THAN IN FOSSIL FUEL POWERED BUSES. (Approximately 550 horse drawn licensed coches run on fixed routes and carry about 40,000 a day or about 80% of the 'mass' transit load.)

ALSO MORE PEOPLE TAKE PEDICABS THAN PETROL POWERED TAXIS ...

If someone is interested write jon_petrie@yahoo.com

Web sources re Bayamo transit from 2004:

http://hq.unhabitat.org/content.asp?cid=1217&catid=373&typeid=6&subMenuId=0

http://www.citiesalliance.org/doc/resources/cds/liveable/bayamo.pdf

Kits2 (talk) 03:03, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Clean up
I'm going to try to clean up the Environmentally Sustainable Transport / Green Transport muddle. To me it is muddled especially as regards images - pictures of solar and wind powered vehicles for example; these contribute nothing currently to transport systems whereas as pointed out above, horses clearly do. Sadly, most new technologies would currently sit better under the heading "greenwash" although this may change.Travelplanner (talk) 10:45, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Your proposed clean up is needed indeed. Also note that this article, green vehicles, and alternative fuel vehicles are beginning to overlap too much. Considering the existing repetition, I suggest you delete the more peripheral info (wind cars?) and leave the more mainstream solutions and link the rest to the other two articles.-Mariordo (talk) 12:01, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

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Dr. Marcucci's comment on this article
Dr. Marcucci has reviewed this Wikipedia page, and provided us with the following comments to improve its quality:

"Policies and governance[edit] See also: urban sprawl Sustainable transport policies have their greatest impact at the city level. Outside Western Europe, cities which have consistently included sustainability as a key consideration in transport and land use planning include Curitiba, Brazil; Bogota, Colombia; Portland, Oregon; and Vancouver, Canada. The state of Victoria, Australia passed legislation in 2010 - the Transport Integration Act[47] - to compel its transport agencies to actively consider sustainability issues including climate change impacts in transport policy, planning and operations.[48]

Many other cities throughout the world have recognised the need to link sustainability and transport policies, for example by joining Cities for Climate Protection.[49]

Oil price trend, 1939–2007, both nominal and adjusted to inflation.

Vehicle-miles traveled in the United States up to March 2009. Community and grassroots action[edit] Sustainable transport is fundamentally a grassroots movement, albeit one which is now recognised as of citywide, national and international significance.

Whereas it started as a movement driven by environmental concerns, over these last years there has been increased emphasis on social equity and fairness issues, and in particular the need to ensure proper access and services for lower income groups and people with mobility limitations, including the fast-growing population of older citizens. Many of the people exposed to the most vehicle noise, pollution and safety risk have been those who do not own, or cannot drive cars, and those for whom the cost of car ownership causes a severe financial burden.[50]

An organization called Greenxc started in 2011 created a national awareness campaign in the United States encouraging people to carpool by ride-sharing cross country stopping over at various destinations along the way and documenting their travel through video footage, posts and photography.[51] Ride-sharing reduces individual's carbon footprint by allowing several people to use one car instead of everyone using individual cars.

6.2 Public Participation in sustainable transport policy-making [edit]

Public participation in sustainable transport policy-making is emerging as a basic component to which human and financial resources have to be dedicated from the beginning of the decision-making process. The EU strongly encourages the Member States to adopt innovative plans such as Sustainable Urban Mobility Plans (SUMPs), where participation is considered as a key issue of success for the decision-making process and for the implementation of the plan itself [1]. In general, participation processes require time and money and they are often regarded as compulsory and quite formal steps of the decision-making process. The selection of the right methods is fundamental and it depends on the level of engagement and the phase of the decision-making process [2]. Appropriate methods and innovative tools can help planning and managing effective participation processes [3]. Representing stakeholders in social networks can be helpful to have a clear insight on the actors involved in the decision-making process and the interactions among them. The technique of Social Network Analysis (SNA) allows to investigate the role of stakeholders in terms of “centrality” in a social network, i.e. a graph consisting of nodes (i.e. the social agents) and links (i.e. the relationships among them) [4]. The key concept is related to the relationships among stakeholders: the centrality of a node depends on the links with the other nodes and there are also different ways of measuring it [5]. Behavioral analysis plays an important role in investigating stakeholders’ preference heterogeneity in order to forecast their individual choice behavior related to policy-making, i.e. as an additional tool to stakeholder analysis [6]. Discrete choice models (DCMs) can be useful in helping policy-makers devising the policies stakeholders most prefer, given their preferences for alternative configurations [7]. Advanced techniques for data acquiring and analysis are needed to increase the robustness and accuracy of the predicting results of the models [8, 9]. Having acquired stakeholders’ heterogeneous preferences, scenario simulations of their interaction, e.g. through agent-based models, can provide useful suggestions for policy-makers on the potential acceptability of policies discussed with stakeholders [10]. They allow to simulate first and evaluate afterwards the impact that a hypothesized stakeholders’ interaction might have on the choice of a shared policy measure. References [1] Wefering, F., Rupprecht, S., Bührmann, S. & Böhler-Baedeker, S. (2014). Guidelines. Developing and Implementing a Sustainable Urban Mobility Plan. Rupprecht Consult – Forschung und Beratung GmbH. [2] Kelly, J., Jones, P., Barta, F., Hossinger, R., Witte, A. & Christian, A. (2004) Successful transport decision-making – A project management and stakeholder engagement handbook, Guidemaps consortium. [3] Le Pira, M. (2015). Towards participatory decision-making processes in transport planning: an agent-based approach. PhD thesis. University of Catania, Italy. In: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/292643361_Towards_participatory_decision-making_processes_in_transport_planning_an_agent-based_approach [4] Scott, J., (2013) Social network analysis. SAGE Publications Ltd. [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrality [6] Marcucci, E., Gatta, V., Scaccia, L. (2015). Urban freight, parking and pricing policies: An evaluation from a transport providers' perspective. Transportation Research Part A-Policy And Practice 74, 239-249. [7] Gatta, V., Marcucci, E. (2014). Urban freight transport and policy changes: Improving decision makers' awareness via an agent-specific approach. Transport Policy 36, 248–252. [8] Gatta, V., Marcucci, E. (2016). Stakeholder-specific data acquisition and urban freight policy evaluation: evidence, implications and new suggestions. Transport Reviews 36(5), p. 585-609. [9] Gatta, V., Marcucci, E. (2016). Behavioural implications of non-linear effects on urban freight transport policies: The case of retailers and transport providers in Rome. Case Studies on Transport Policy, 4(1), pp. 22-28. [10] Marcucci, E., Gatta, V., Le Pira, M., Ignaccolo, M., Inturri, G., Pluchino, A. (2015). Agent-based modeling of stakeholder involvement for urban freight transport policy-making. Paper presented at URBE conference (Rome, 1-2 October 2015). In: http://host.uniroma3.it/eventi/urbe/apfp.php."

We hope Wikipedians on this talk page can take advantage of these comments and improve the quality of the article accordingly.

We believe Dr. Marcucci has expertise on the topic of this article, since he has published relevant scholarly research:


 * Reference : Valerio Gatta & Edoardo Marcucci, 2013. "Ex-Post Implications Of Ex-Ante Data Acquisition Strategies In Multiagent-Type Urban Freight Policy Evaluation," Working Papers 0613, CREI Universita degli Studi Roma Tre, revised 2013.

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