Talk:Syrianska FC

Cleanup of history section
I added a cleanup tag for the history section as it is written in bullet form. I propose whoever is a significat contributor to this article to take a look at the history section at IFK Göteborg and Malmö FF for excellent examples. If you would like to discuss this with me or my help or suggestions please write to me on my talk page as this article is not on my watchlist. Thanks! --Reckless182 (talk) 22:45, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Looks much better know! --Reckless182 (talk) 18:46, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

SYRIANIEN edits
First of all you don't wp:OWN this page any user can make a contribution as long as it conforms to wikipedia's policies. I would also like to bring two points here:
 * 1) What does Syrianska mean in Swedisch? Do you know what the difference is between the words "arameiska" and "Syrianska"? On which universe does "ܐܚܢܢ ܟܘܠܢ ܣܘܪ̈ܝܝܐ" mean "we are all Arameans"?
 * 2) WikiProject Assyria doesn't only binds itself with ancient Assyria. As you know, there is an ethnic group that calls itself "Assyrian" which claim continuity with the ancient Assyrians. This group is also known by other names including: Chaldeans, Syriacs, and yes even Arameans. If you for some reason don't feel that you belong to this group then this is your own opinion that you should keep it for yourself as all political and religious institutions which represent those people agree that these names describe the same ethnoreligious group. If you object to the scope of this WikiProject and you want to see it deleted then be my guest and make a proposal at WP:MFD.--  R a f y  talk 10:50, 13 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Fine, to avoid a revert war then put it back "Wikiproject assyria". SYRIANIEN (talk) 08:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * This user is getting out of hand and refuses to cooperate. I have repeatly asked him to bring just a single source that states Syrianskameans Aramean, yet he hasn't brought any yet. He's just plugging the word in every sentence. Typical ultra-nationalist behavior. Chaldean (talk) 07:35, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

SYRIANIEN (talk) 08:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * This is just some sources claiming that Suryoyo and Oromoyo is synonyms, Syriac and Aramean, which also means that Syrianska can be translated into Aramean since they are synonyms. Prof. Nöldeke argued already in 1871 that the sole scholarly correct name for the Syriac people and their language really is ‘Aramean’. Suryoyo may refer to the Syriac language, but is also a singularis form for a person of Aramaic (Syriac) background in the Syriac language while "Suryoye" (Syriacs) is the pluralis form. In many texts and sources, "Suryoyo", and more traditionally "Suroyo" (Syriac) and "Oromoyo" (Aramaean) is often used as synonyms. In completion of Septuagint version of the Old Testament, both of the terms were used as synonyms. "Aramaeans" where translated into "Syrians" (Syriacs) and "Aram" where translated into "Syria". The Syrian people used "Aramaean" as self-designation before Christ, but after Christ, "Suroyo" (Or "Suryoyo") came to be used more often. When the Syrians (Syriacs) where calling themselves for "Suroye", or "Suryoye" (Syriacs) they were referring to their Aramaic ancestry. In many texts, "Aram" and "Syria" is used as synonyms.     Even in the Septuagint, the first translation of the Old Testament, the term "Aram" was translated into "Syria", "Aramaeans" into "Syrian" and "Aramaic language" into "Syrian language".    The Syriacs originate from the Aramaeans and was in former times called for Aramaeans and their language Aramaic. The term "Aram" was found in an akkadian inscription for the first time 2200 B.C. The lexicographer Bar Bahlul from Baghdad (fl. 963 A.D.) recorded in his lexicon under the lemma ‘Syria’ that “the Syriacs [suryoye] were formerly called Arameans [oromoye].”       Historian Flavius Josephus, confirms that “Aram,” the son of Sem, the son of the Biblical Noah (Genesis 10:22), “had the Arameans, which the Greeks called Syrians.” ~


 * That was my whole point... Syriac, Aramean and Assyrian are all synonymous and I could also bring sources with similar analogies between Assyria and Syria. But when someone calls himsellf Suryoyo then the honest translation should be "Syriac". If we follow your argument then we should rename the Syriac Orthodox Church to the Aramean Orthodox Church.
 * ܣܘܪܝܝܐ Suryoyo translates to Syriac, ܐܪܡܝܐ Oromoyo to Aramean, point. You may think of them as interchangeable but don't mess with the translation...--  R a f y  talk 09:07, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Did this guy even read what he posted? It goes against his argument. Of course he didn't, he copied and pasted from another wiki page?


 * This is what his sources said: and sources, "Suryoyo", and more traditionally "Suroyo" (Syriac) and "Oromoyo" (Aramaean) is often used as synonyms.
 * Thanks for proving yourself wrong and that Suroyo is Syriac in English and not Aramean. If we go with your logic, Soroyo, Oromoyo and Atoroyo are used interchangeably so your edit should be like this: Ahna kolan Suryoye ("We are all Syriacs, Arameans, Syrian, Assyrian"). Chaldean (talk) 09:47, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, Suryoyo and Oromoyo is synonyms, that means that Suryoyo can be translated into Aramean, and Oromoyo could be translated into Syriac. Its the same thing, our language is sometimes more known as "Aramaic", rather than "Syriac", but in our language it is more known as Suryoyo. That means that Aramaic = Suryoyo. Thats why "Ahna kolan suryoye" can be translated into "we are all Arameans". SYRIANIEN (talk) 12:18, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * And Suryoyo is also synonymous of Assyrian so why not chose "We are all Assyrians"? I'm just using your argument here.--  R a f y  talk 12:27, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes to you it is synonymous, according to Assyrians, everything is synonymous to them. But if you keep yourself to the facts, then Suryoyo is synonymous to Oromoyo, therefore Suryoyo = Aramean. Until you disprove my edits, the Suryoyo = Aramean in the article stays. We are also not coming to a solution. I have presented sources claiming that Suryoyo = Aramean, since they both are synonyms, but still you are avoiding it.SYRIANIEN (talk) 13:58, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Check the Names of Syriac Christians and Çineköy inscription articles... They have plenty of sources. I'm asking for a 3rd opinion.--  R a f y  talk 14:09, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Okey, i accept the current version. I accept Aramean (Syriac) Flag -> Syriac flag and "We are all Arameans" -> "We are all Syriacs". But i made 1 change, Syriac Federation -> Syriac Aramaic Federation. They just changed their name and added "Aramaic" . You can contact them, or if you want you can just check their official facebook page and check their name Facebook. + Also changed "... Syrianska translated into Aramean" -> "... Syrianska translated into Syriac". Are we agreed now? SYRIANIEN (talk) 14:27, 14 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Bottom line, you can't decide for yourself what something is translated into from one language to another. You do a google translate for Syrianska from Swedish to English you get Syriac. You do the same for Aramiska you get Aramean. To mislead the reader by replacing Syriac with Aramean is unjustified. The link you just provided just showed one association changing its name in Swedish. Chaldean (talk) 15:48, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm a Third Opinion Wikipedian. It looks to me that you either have this settled, or are very close to doing so, and are to be warmly commended for that. If you do get it settled, please remove your request from the Third Opinion project page and remove the 3O template from this talk page. It's always much better if the parties to a dispute can settle it themselves, so I'm not going to offer a 3O at this point. (And to other 3O Wikipedians, I have not "taken" or reserved this case in any way. If you would like to issue an opinion, now or later, please feel free to do so.) Regards, TransporterMan  ( TALK ) 15:45, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It's accepted now imo acceptable now. I have removed the third opinion notice.--  R a f y  talk 16:29, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Intro + Infobox
The club refers to themselves as "Suryoye (Arameans)". Also, the article was a little bit non-neutral a few months ago, but then me, Chaldean and Rafy discussed it and we removed some things, and finally came up with this version, the most of it backed up with sources. User Reckless have also been very involved in this article with correcting, fixing, adding parts etc etc. And also, can we please keep the discussion here, and not in other Users talkspages. I recommend we ask for a third opinion notice. SYRIANIEN (talk) 17:31, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi, sorry for not notifying you, you should have been involved in the discussion. I have notified WPFOOTBALL here and asked for a third party opinion, there have been no replies as of yet, hopefully there will. There is an obvious problem here with the translation of the ethnic term into English, something which apperantly has been a problem in Swedish as well. However, I think these edits have more to do wether Suryouye is a nickname or not for the club. I think that it is fairly obvious that Suryouye is used as a nickname for the club as the club was founded as Suryoyo SK and the fact that club use the term repeatedly in match reports on the English version of their website, a reliable source on this subject. However, User:Shmayo disagreed with me and believes that it is the same as saying that a correct nickname for Malmö FF would be "Skåningar" which isn't correct in any way. I'm not familar with the previous discussion you had with Chaldean and Rafy, could you link it perhaps? I find it hard to see why we need to feature (Arameans) after Suryoye, isn't the term itself enough? There is an obvious dispute of how to translate the term so the wording could also be (Syriac), (Assyrians), (Chaldeans) etc, therefore I see no reason to include a controversial translate of the nickname, the nickname itself is enough. I also do not see it as neceassary to include the nickname in the lead of the article, the appearance in the infobox is sufficient, nicknames are commonly not featured in the lead of football club articles, take a look at Malmö FF, Manchester United F.C., Real Madrid C.F. etc. This is unless Suryouye is still an official club name which I don't think it is? A better alternative would be to write: Syrianska Football Club, known as Syrianska FC and founded as Suryoyo SK (Aramaic pronunciation: [suːrjoːjɛ]), is a Swedish professional football club from Södertälje. What do you think? --Reckless182 (talk) 19:03, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Silly me, I now see that the discussion you mentioned is just above this one. --Reckless182 (talk) 19:03, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Third opinion was exactly what was asked for here. Shmayo (talk) 21:23, 29 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes i just noticed you and Shmayo had an discussion in your talkpage, hard for me to know as i thought Syrianska FC-related issues was going to be discussed in the articles talkpage, but thanks for notifying me now. At first, the name "Suryoye" is widely-spread especially in Sweden, for as an name for Syrianska FC. There is dozens of sources proving that, i can provide the sources. But the reason for not adding those sources in the intro-lead is because it destroys the design. Its something that the most of the Swedes already know, it is not something that has to be proved with 10 sources. But if an administrator or someone demands sources, then i can provide them. And no, its really not the same thing that Malmö FF would be called "Skåningar". If we are to follow that principle, then we should call Syrianska FC for "Södertäljebor", or AIK for "Solnaiter". Suryoye is the most used nickname for Syrianska FC. Even in the motherlanguage, they call the team for Suryoye, no one uses the term Syrianska. The name Suryoye is also written in their shirts. Also the first name the team embraced was "Suryoyo SK". "There is an obvious dispute of how to translate the term so the wording could also be (Syriac), (Assyrians), (Chaldeans" No, the term Suryoye can never be translated into Assyrians or Chaldeans. The term Suryoye and Suryoyo is translated correctly into Syriacs and Syriac. For example, Leshono Suryoyo is translated into Syriac language. Just check the wikipedia article. By translating it into Assyrian is only by propaganda reasons, and Wikipedia should be 100% free from propaganda. Check the article Hammarby IF. In the intro, it is written " In Sweden, the club is often referred to by its nickname Bajen". Thats something we can add instead into the intro. But i dont find any problem with having "Suryoye (Arameans)", since the club itself uses the term. User Shmayo just removed everything from the intro, because he did not like that. He does not like anything here on Wikipedia, just check his history. He removed also how the term Suryoye is being spelled. It is impossible for a reader to understand how the term Suryoye is being pronounced, thats where "(Aramaic pronunciation: [suːrjoːjɛ])" comes in. Even that did he not like. He is not contributing to this article, he is just destroying it. Good that you found our prevoius discussion with Rafy and Chaldean. We had a big discussion, but at the end we removed some things that were not appropriate for this article. We changed the text a bit, added new things and then we agreed on the version. Even though Rafy and Chaldean maybe are a bit on the Assyrian side, we still came up with a very good discussion with an agreement. we worked together and reached a solution. SYRIANIEN (talk) 23:58, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
 * "At first, the name "Suryoye" is widely-spread especially in Sweden, for as an name for Syrianska FC." It's not, and you know it. If it would be, Länstidningen in Södertälje would have mentioned it sometime, don't you think? Or somewhere else? As for skåningar, I wrote it wasn't the best comparison, but the one with Dalkurd was though. Are you aiming for a article written as bad as Hammarby IF, or the ones Reckless182 mentioned? Shmayo (talk) 00:18, 30 December 2011 (UTC)


 * "...skadedrabbad under säsongen hade ”Suryoye” antagligen inte behövt kvala sig kvar. Med en mindre risktagande målvakt och en etablerad mittback kan Syrianska ta nästa steg under 2012 även om det brukar heta att..." Aftonbladet just for an example. Just provided a source, from Swedens biggest newspaper. Also please, dont avoid all the other things i wrote. SYRIANIEN (talk) 00:25, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Did you read what was written at his talk page? I actually suggested "Suryoye" in the info box? I'm talking about the first line, which should be like the ones Reckless182 mentioned? What do you want me to answer, how "Suryoye" should be translated? Is that the main point of this discussion? I'm here discussing how the structure of this article should be like. Shmayo (talk) 00:29, 30 December 2011 (UTC)


 * You actually suggested "Suryoye" in the info box? You are also talking about the first line? Well, according to your edit, it does not go togheter. SYRIANIEN (talk) 00:35, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Again, did you see my suggestion after mine and Reckless182's edit? What do you think talk pages are for? Discussing the best for the article. Shmayo (talk) 00:43, 30 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, me and your assyrian friends already made a huge discussion, and we agreed on the current version. SYRIANIEN (talk) 10:17, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
 * What did you think of my suggestion above? I don't think its a good idea to have nicknames in the lead if you are serious about wanting the article to reach GA or FA status. It's better to correctly state that the club was founded as Suryoyo SK. I am aware that the website themselves has used (Arameans) after Suryoye but why do you think this needs to be in the article? I believe that removing this would lead to a decrease in edit warring between people who have different opinions of how to translate Suryoye, you state that the term can't be translated into Assyrian but several sources indicate that there is a long dispute about this, see this for example: "I Mellanöstern kallade sig folkgruppen ”suryoye” men när termen skulle översättas till svenska uppstod en konflikt. Vissa hävdade att vi härstammade från de forna assyrierna, andra att detta var historieförfalskning. Resultatet: folkgruppen splittrades i syrianer och assyrier. Plötsligt kallade sig en bror för det ena, en bror för det andra. Trots att det är en och samma etniska grupp delades allt upp i två delar: kyrkor, föreningar, tidningar, flaggor och fotbollslag. ". --Reckless182 (talk) 12:25, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

No i think that Suryoye should stay in the infobox and in the first sentence, since it is a widely spread name in Sweden for the club, especially in media. Tne name "Othuroye" is translated = Assyrian, while name Suryoye is translated Syriacs. User Shmayo is not here just to improve this article, the only thing he want to accomplish is to remove everything that has to do with the name "Aramean". Check the FC Barcelona article: "Futbol Club Barcelona (Catalan pronunciation: [fubˈbɔɫ ˈkɫub bərsəˈɫonə] ( listen), English: Football Club Barcelona), also known as Barcelona and familiarly as Barça,". In that article they mentions the name Barca in the first sentence. It is exactly the same thing as "Suryoye" for Syrianska FC. It is a name for the team Syrianska FC. Thats the name used by everyone, especially in their motherlanguage. They use the term Suryoye when they are talking about Syrianska FC. It is also a widely spread name amongst other club supporters, media etc. SYRIANIEN (talk) 12:52, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

First, pretty ridiculous to say "widly spread" when you barely hear or read it in media. Secondly, it really doesn't matter, just read Reckless182 first line above. And I don't understand your talk about "and we agreed on the current version.", just because you were discussing about a term doesn't mean I can't start a discussion about the first line or the nickname. Please stop being aggressive and stick to the topic. Your recent edit on your post: I'm well aware of that the shortenings "Barca" and "Juve" are mentioned in their articles, these shortenings maybe more used that the actual name. But if you do look at most elite club you will see that nicknames are listed in the info box mostly, if you still haven't read his post above; if we're aiming for a FA or GA it should stay in the info box. Shmayo (talk) 13:17, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree that Suryoye is a nickname for the club, I just don't agree with having it in the lead section, I believe that it is much better to correctly state that the club was founded as Suryoyo BK. You also didn't answer my question about your opinion regarding the importance with the translataion after Suryoye. --Reckless182 (talk) 14:07, 30 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Well i think that we should keep it the way it already is, we already had an agremeent earlier right? About the translation after Suryoye, i think it is important to have it just because the club is using that name. SYRIANIEN (talk) 12:44, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Nobody had an "agreement" on this. If your are talking about your discussion with Chaldean and Rafy, that was about the translation and you all agreed "Syriac Sportclub" would be the translation of "Suryoyo Sportclub". What we are trying to discuss here is the first line/where the nickname should be, and what it should be. Our suggestion was leaving it out from the first line, but keeping it in the box without any controversial translation? Shmayo (talk) 14:18, 3 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I see no problem with having " and familiarly known as "Suryoye"" or something like that in the first lead, just like in the FC Barcelona article for example. SYRIANIEN (talk) 15:56, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm suggesting a new version of the lead and infobox + page protection due to vandalism
We need to come to a consensus regarding the lead and the infobox, we can establish that the editors that are involved in this dispute have different opinions based on their own subjective opinions. Therefore, I'm suggesting a new version a new version of lead and infobox as the third neutral party that I am. I also propose that we consider protecting the page against editing by anon users as there has been recurring vandalism on the page.

I suggest the following lead. I'm open to constructive suggestions and I'm aware that I might be confused as to some things but we need to establish a neutral objective version that everyone is able to accept. I also removed facts that shouldn't be in the lead. I'm open to feature Suryoye as a nickname in the infobox as longs as we have a reliable source to lean on. However since the club is officially named Syrianska FC and refereed to as such by newspapers and most importantly the Swedish FA (SvFF) the nickname used by the fans shouldn't be featured in the lead. I'm also a bit uncertain if we should feature the sentence about the pop song, is it really of lead importance?

Please come with reasonable and constructive suggestions and not simply "I don't agree". --Reckless182 (talk) 15:54, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

New lead suggestion
Syrianska Football Club, also known simply as Syrianska FC, are a Swedish professional football club based in Södertälje. The club were founded in 1977, by Suryoyo immigrants as Suryoyo Sportklubb or simply Suryoyo SK. In 1986 the name was changed to Syrianska SK, the club later adopted its present name as the club grew and advanced through the league system. After two years in Superettan, Syrianska were promoted to the highest tier in Swedish football, Allsvenskan in 2010, for the first time in the club's history,[3] making them the 61st team to play in Allsvenskan.[4][5]

The Suryoyo people do not have an official national team, and Syrianska is often viewed as its substitute.[7] The literal translation of Syrianska from Swedish to English is disputed as there is a historical dispute concerning the translation of the original terms Suryoye and Suryoyo into English and Swedish. The official Swedish translation of Suryoyo is "Assyrier/Syrianer" which can be translated into English as "Assyrians/Syriacs".[Source to be added]

The club has a fan base from all over the world.[8][9][10] Their promotion to Allsvenskan gained extensive coverage in Swedish TV sports programs, documentaries and magazines, as well as in non-Swedish magazines. The club also has its own pop song, Ahna kolan Suryoye ("We are all Suryoye"), sung by Josef Özer.[11][12][13]

Comments

 * It's very unfortunate that SYRIANIEN have been blocked. In order not to attract more angry supporters, I suggest keeping the lede free of nationalist claims whether Assyrian or Aramean. I believe that Reckless182 is well experienced in Swedish footbal-related articles and pretty impartial in this matter, so I'm OK with his suggestions.--  R a f y  talk 16:58, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I wasn't aware that he was blocked. That is indeed unfortunate since I believe that he was serious in improving the article. However I can't comment on other issues. I believe you are right that we need a lead that is free of nationalist claims and that was what I was hoping to achieve with this suggestion. I've notified User:Shmayo who has been involved in discussion regarding the lead before. --Reckless182 (talk) 23:13, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I think your suggestions sound good, Reckless. Shmayo (talk) 16:46, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
 * OK good, I'll update the lead now since everyone involved except SYRIANIEN who has been blocked has voiced their opinion. Hopefully this will lead to less edit warring and less vandalism in the future. --Reckless182 (talk) 16:58, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

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