Talk:Taiwanese Hokkien/Archive 1

Move
Any objections against moving this to Taiwanese (linguistics)? --Jiang 05:03, 4 November 2003 (UTC)


 * Nope. --Menchi 05:56, 4 November 2003 (UTC)

Prologue
>What is wrong with using unicode to represent folk characters, with, >er, folk characters?

Folk characters are well known to be clumsy, defying the "orthodox" method of Hanzi formation---the combination of ideographic particle with syllabic particle, or the combination of ideographic particles. Vietnamese Chu Nom, and Japanese "furikana" in a way inherit the spirit of this orthodox ideographic method. Cantonese folk characters have degenerated into a purely syllabic nature and, what's worse, a set of uncategorized, unstandardized syllables. Moreover, Cantonese folk characters are cut off from other dialect zones, confined to the Yue dialect area and are cut off from traditional Chinese literature. A standardized written Cantonese has to contain MOSTLY Hanzis that are common to the two main Chinese literary forms: Archaic Wenyan and Modern Baihua. A mixed Latin-Hanzi script, though idiosyncratic and unprecedented, will be much easier for non-Cantonese to pick up due to the systemic nature of the Latin alphabet.

>I appreciate that hanzi-unfriendly environments need solutions such >as romanisation but this issue will surely become less of a problem as >the world's computers slowly adopt unicode?

I guess alphabetic scripts will continue to have an "edge" over Hanzi scripts, and standard Hanzi scripts will continue to have an edge over unstandardized, locally-confined, complex syllabic scripts. Simply put, I want a standard written Cantonese language that can look almost identical to a decent Modern Standard Chinese in an academic journal, but can be transmitted in Latinized form among mobile phones.

>Who is "we"?

Narrowly, reformers of the literary Cantonese language who want to see it becoming one of the two main standards in the Chinese Linguistic Family, and a major world language capable of absorbing new ideas and developing independent of the "Northern Variety". Broadly, everyone who sees the need to reform and knows what has to be done about it.

>Well, you can always mix latin text with Hanzi for loanwords. >What inadequecies do you mean?

Hint: Japanese has abolished its post-Meiji system of literally translating foreign loanwords to Hanzi compound words and adopted a "Katakana" based transliteration method after WWII. Korean and Vietnamese also adopted more accurate transliteration systems to Hangul and Quoc Ngu. In terms of absorbing international academic and technological terms, Chinese(Taiwan and Hong Kong varieties included) lags considerably behind its "Hanzi Zone" neighbors. This places a severe limit especially on the fledgling modern intellectual arena of contemporary China and Taiwan. China is undergoing a major period of transformation. I am talking about something happening deep inside the Chinese mind. Will China give birth to the kind of militant ethocentrism we see in pre-WWII Japan or contemporary Islamic and Hindu worlds? Language isn't the only factor. But it's too important to overlook.


 * Curious, since there is a recent New York Times article that argues the opposite, that Japanese katakana actually serves to isolate Japan from foreign influences by clearly separating what is Japanese from what is foreign, while the Chinese habit of turning everything into characters has the effect of sinify foreign ideas and concepts and shows China is being more outward looking than Japan.

Roadrunner 09:37, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

> I don't even like seeing "D" being used instead of dik1.

It should be "dek1" actually, according to the phonetic system of Cantonese. When you say "dek1" you are actually pronouncing a "short-closed" e instead of a "short-open" i. There are no "short-opens" in Cantonese as in English.

The reason why Anglophones "get" Sydney Lau and Yale is because these two system assumes "short-closed" o,e to be "short-open" u,i, which happen to be the property of Germanic languages like English and German.

However, a Spaniard, or especially a Greek, won't be so lucky with Lau and Yale. You'd hear them pronouncing "fok1" and "dek1" as if they were "fuuuuuuuuuuuuk1" and "diiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiik1"

Of course, they have audio files to assist them but, to match an unsystematic transliteration with correct audio files would be like bringing home someone else's baby from the maternity ward--- at first they are babies all the same. The realization comes much later. I believe the Quoc Ngu-using Vietnamese have learned this mistake.

removed the reference to Taiwan Mandarin. I've never heard Taiwanese being used to refer to Taiwan Mandarin either in Chinese or English.


 * I have, but only by people ignorant of the fact that (1) there are actually several different languages spoken in Taiwan, and that (2) Mandarin is a relatively recent import to the island. (Can you say Chiang Kai-Shek? *grin*)
 * Perhaps we could put in something like "Mandarin is the official language of Taiwan, but is not normally referred to as the "Taiwanese language."? I do think linking to Mandarin is relevant to the article. Pgdudda

This page is too much about sociolinguistics and too little on the lower levels of Taiwanese language (phonetics, syntactics, etc.). I put lots of references in, but anyone want to write up? --Kaihsu 15:39 Apr 17, 2003 (UTC)

Is this phrase, "Taiwanese (dialect of) Mandarin (Chinese)" referring to the accent of Mandarin spoken in Taiwan? If so, then can it be called a "dialect"? --Jiang 03:08 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * In addition to pronunciation, the vocabulary differ slightly too. Much like British English-North American English differences in my thinking. If it has an article (and it deserves one), it could be Taiwanese Mandarin Chinese. --Menchi 03:25 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The example in the section of "Vocabulary" is not exactly correct. In fact, "chau" in Cantonese is "to run" rather than "to walk".

"most Taiwanese words have cognates in other Chinese dialects. False friends do exist; for example, cháu means "to run" in Taiwanese, rather than the meaning of its cognate zǒu ("to walk") in Mandarin." --RandGen 11:45, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Alternative meanings
They should be split into their own articles per convention. Anyone up to the task of expanding them? --Jiang 01:16, 8 July 2004 (UTC)


 * the Holo language in taiwan(taiwanese) is strongly influenced by japanese due to Japan's rule for more than half an century. there are many words borrowed from japanese. It is like modern english after norman's rule which is different from old language(I mean the language anglo-saxons brought from Continent). --User:75.32.36.25

-

Changed first sentence, since the subethnic identity on Taiwan is not mainly language-based (i.e. someone whose parents are Holo is generally considered Holo even they speak Taiwanese badly, and someone whose parents are Hakka are generally considered Hakka even they speak Taiwanese well)... This is different from the situation is say Quebec.

Roadrunner 02:25, 24 August 2004 (UTC)

Suggest adding Sample Audio
The following audio sample used to be at Mandarin (linguistics): Oniows 11:09, 5 June 2005 (UTC)
 * Kin-á-jit || hit-ê || cha-bóu gín-á || lâi || góan || tau || || khòaⁿ || góa. ||rowspan="2" valign="top"|[[Media:Tai_JintianDaoJiaKanWo.ogg|listen]]

Hokkien
I clicked a link to Hokkien_(dialect) and came to this page. Shouldn't the Hokkien dialect have its own page instead of redirecting to here? Taiwanese is a specific dialect of Hokkien, but there are others, including the dialects spoken in Xiamen, Singapore, and Penang. I can imagine there are Hokkien speakers in China and Southeast Asia who have never stepped a foot in Taiwan and would dispute their language being called Taiwanese. I propose having Hokkien_(dialect) redirect to Min Nan or be a seperate article instead of redirecting to Taiwanese.--Yuje 15:09, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * Should it be pointed to Min or Min Nan? &mdash; Instantnood 20:36, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * Shoudl be Min Nan. As far as I know, Hokkien doesn't refer to the Min Bei speakers. --Yuje 04:44, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * I know that.. :-P but the word Hokkien is actually the same word as Fujian.. &mdash; Instantnood 07:16, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * As a Hokkien speaker myself, I agree with Yuje. Hokkien is just another reference to Min Nan, despite the fact that the word Hokkien itself means Fujian..in Hokkien/Min Nan! I would therefore agree to that change, all the more because Hokkien in Southeast Asia is largely a cultural extension of Fujian, and not Taiwan. Meanwhile, I would also suggest that Min Nan be renamed as Min Nan (linguistics)?--Huaiwei 14:21, 23 June 2005 (UTC)

Taiwanese is actually the term used by Taiwanese to describe their own variant of Minnanhua. Hokkien is a term used by South East Asian Chinese (Singaporean, Malaysian, Indonesian) to describe Minnanhua. It is not used elsewhere. Basically, Taiwanese is so closed to Minnan that I don't think there should be a seperate article for it unless the difference is greater. Then, contributors should add sufficient differences between Taiwanese and Minnan on the mainland. Visik

Removed text
"Taiwanese is also spoken fluently by people who immigrated to Taiwan prior to the mass influx of Kuomingtang after their humiliating defeat to communist China."

Not only is this sentence partially redundant and ungrammatical, it is not necessarily true. The Holos are said to speak the dialect fluently, but the other groups of native Taiwanese, the Hakkas and aboriginals, do not. This makes this sentence essentially pointless. --Jiang 17:26, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation
I took a stab at adding IPA symbols to the Consonants section, using Summary of pronunciation of Church Romanization according to International Phonetic Alphabet (listed in external links) as a guide. But I could not find the symbol it used for l, and it gave a different place of articulation for j. ian 16:37, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

the Vocabulary of Taiwanese
The article says:


 * Among the apparently cognate-less words are many basic words with properties that contrast with similar-meaning words of pan-Chinese derivation. Often the former group lacks a standard Han character, and the words are variously considered colloquial, intimate, vulgar, uncultured, or more concrete in meaning than the pan-Chinese synonym.  Some examples:  lâng (person, concrete) vs. jîn (&#20154;, person, abstract); cha-bó· (woman, sometimes considered vulgar) vs. lú-jîn (&#22899;&#20154;, woman, literary); chi-bai (vagina, pussy) vs. im-t&#333; (&#38512;&#36947;, vagina). 

Are these examples really cognateless? I don't speak Taiwanese so I don't know for sure, but lâng seems to be the 白讀 vernacular reading of 人, bó· seems to be 母 (I don't know what cha might be), and chi-bai has an obvious (and equally offensive) cognate in Mandarin that means the same thing. Is this really a "cognateless/pan-Chinese" divide comparable to the Germanic/Romance divide of English, or is it really an extension of the 白讀/文讀 divide, similar to the Latin/French divide in French vocabulary? -- ran [[User talk:Ran|(talk)]] 03:01, Aug 24, 2004 (UTC)

I know that cha-bó· is not a cognate, but I thought lâng (from 郎) and chi-bai (膣屄) were.


 * lâng I think is from 儂. ian 21:03, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Featured article?
This article was featured on the main page. Where can I find the discussion that identify this article as a featured article? Thanks. &mdash; Instantnood 20:42, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Link disambiguation question
There is a link in the section Taiwanese_%28linguistics%29 that appears as Tainan in the context "In Taiwan, however, the Tâi-lâm (Tainan, southern Taiwan) speech is the variant of prestige". Could someone note whether this link should be disambiguated to Tainan City or Tainan County or to another entity; I would suggest the link be pipe-disambiguated rather than replaced. Thanks. Regards, Courtland 00:58, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Move
And calling "Taiwanese" a language is controversal. Would moving it to Taiwanese Chinese (like all the other Chinese dialects) or Taiwanese dialect (to avoid the word "Chinese") be better? --Jiang 03:08 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * Is Holo-oe a language, a dialect, a variant? The opinion differs, but just because in Mandarin, it's called "yu", it doesn't necessarily mean that it's considered so in linguistics, since Hui Chinese is called "yu" in Chinese too, but many don't even see it as a dialect. So translating the name literally isn't a good idea here.


 * The 1st sentence of the article says it's "variant of Hokkien" [emphasis added]. Hokkien, in term, is a division of the Min Chinese language/dialect. So it's 3 belows below a "language proper" (or at least, the normal definition of a language). Maybe Taiwanese Chinese works (although it looks extremely, extremely confusing like the "TW Chinese people"), but Taiwanese language definitely invites the stares of many, many linguists and amateurs. --Menchi 03:25 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I vote for keeping it Taiwanese language. It's a literal translation of Tai-yu. I don't think most unificationists (of which I happen to be one) object to "Taiwanese language" (although they would perfer to call it Min-nan), but independencist *would* object to calling it Taiwanese Chinese. --Roadrunner

I would prefer the title goes with the most popular English translation of Taiyu. "Taiwanese language" seems a good choice without worrying about political correctness though it may be linguistically incorrect. Anyhow a google search of checking out which translation is the most popular should do the trick. kt2 04:03 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Deleted statement that Taiwanese is seen as a Chinese dialect because it is written with Han characters. Japanese and Korean can also be written with Chinese characters but aren't considered Chinese dialects.

Roadrunner

I have done overall minor fixing of grammar and punctuation. I did not rewrite any sentences that would have an effect on the language-vs.-dialect debate, but the article appears neutral to me in its current form, although I am not well versed in all the nuances of the debate. --Sewing 16:24, 18 Oct 2003 (UTC)


 * "Taiwanese" is the same as the Min-nan (southern Fujian province) dialect. I know this because I speak it. There's no reason why this article should be separated from Min Nan. Taiwanese is a variant of Fujian (Hokkian) language only in the sense that some pronunciation and word usage is different (just like British English and American English). But fundamentally both are the same language and should be under one single title. AquaExecution

Actually, British English and American English have separate entries in Wikipedia. I don't see why Taiwanese and Min nan should be any different. 218.160.32.132 14:46, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Please note that they are under British "English" and American "English". Even the proudest Americans call their own language "English" rather than "American". Accordingly, it would be more appropriate and technically correct for this article to be under "Taiwanese Minnan".

New Proposal for a new Romanization system called the Goj System.
Note the following Changes from the POJ system. 1) ch ---> z 2) chh ---> x 3) kh ---> k 4) k ---> q 5) t ---> d (this would make it easier to learn English, because most english speakers pronounce t as in toy and d as in dog, but if you pronounce t to sound like a d, you are going to confuse students who are learning English. 6) p ---> v 7) ph ---> p 8) th ---> t

Notice, these changes will make the pronunciation more accurate and more similar to English pronunciation. Also, instead of having to use three letters to represent chh, you only need to use one letter x. Only one consonant is necessary for every sound.

The vowels are as follows:

A (mama) I (see) U (Sue) E (hay) O (row)

The nasal sound would be represented by the letter j, which is shaped like a nose. For example, the word nose would be spelled: pij.

The nasal sounds would be as follows:

aj, ij, --, ej, oj

"clothes" - saj "noodles" - mij "squeeze" - dej "surname Wu" - goj

Note, there is no nasal sound for uj. Therefore the uj would be used to denote the sound (uh), such as the word 'no' -- buj or the word to 'learn' -- uj.

The nasal sound can also be combined with other vowels. For example, the word "to wear" would be spelled 'xiejn', which is quite easy to type and to learn. "Please sit down" would be written 'xiaj ze" instead of 'chhiaN che'. Note that the similarity of ch with chh makes it difficult to quickly read the words, where as the difference between x and z is stark and easy to recognize immediately without the brain having to take a moment to figure out how to pronounce 'chh' or how to pronounce 'ch'. Also note that you only needed to use 6 letters instead of 9 letters to express the same phrase, making it much easier to write Taiwanese.

For some northern accents that believe there is a nasal u, it is actually a nasal i, with a u ending. For example, in the South, the pronunciation for sheep is ioj, but in the north, people say iju - a nasal i plus a u at the end.

The advantage of using the j to denote the nasal sound is that it is very visible and easily recognizable and can be typed easily whereas using a N or an elevated n makes it difficult to type.

In summary, the new system would allow Taiwanese to be pronounced more accurately. Tâi-oân-oē would thus be written as Dâi-uân-uē, pronouncing the d like 'dog' in english rather than the t as in 'table'. Also, note that the correct pronunciation of the word "Taiwanese" requires the pronunciation of the verb u more clearly rather than the verb o, which should be pronounced more like "zero" or "row" rather than "you".

Vanguard321 05:00, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Interpretation of short tone ending with h
A possible explanation for the sandhi exceptions for tones 4-h and 8-h: they are actually not seen as short tones. If tone 4-h is spoken as tone 3, this is consistent with its sandhi tone 2. I have heard many people say tone 8-h as tone 2. (However the sandhi for 8-h is tone 3.) I would like to point out that even without sandhi, the short tone 4-h appears to have merged with long tone 3. Oniows 20:32, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Creation of Amoy (linguistics) page
I have created the Amoy (linguistics) page because I think we need a page that focuses specifically on the language/dialect common to Quanzhou, Xiamen, Zhangzhou, Taiwan (where it is known as Taiwanese), and Southeast Asia (where it is known as Hokkien). I intend to put the essentials about the language/dialect on that page. Min Nan is not the appropriate page to talk about those things specifically, because Min Nan actually represents a family of languages/dialects which are not mutually intelligible. For example, Teochew is only 50.4% mutually intelligible with Amoy, despite the fact that they are both in the Min Nan family. The Taiwanese (linguistics) page should stay, but be more narrowly focused on the aspects specific to Amoy as it is used in Taiwan. I think the Taiwanese (linguistics) article should not include the basic information about the language (which will be in the Amoy article instead), but should do more to flesh out at least these two areas:


 * 1) how Taiwanese accents compare to the Quanzhou, Xiamen and Zhangzhou accents.  In other words, a description of the geographic distribution of accents.  Taipei tends to follow Quanzhou and Xiamen accents, while Tainan usually follows Zhangzhou accents.  But there are some exceptions to this, and these should be highlighted in the article.
 * 2) vocabulary differences, which should include information about: Taiwan word usage (ex. Taiwan uses tiān-náu vs. kè-sǹg-ki for computer), Japanese loanwords (ex. hú-ló-keng bathroom, from furo)

In other words, I think the Penang Hokkien article is a good model for the Taiwanese (linguistics) page. Hopefully, these modifications will be to everyone's liking. I will be slowly working on adding information over time, but am hopeful that other fluent speakers will help out. -- A-cai 07:25, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Note that this article achieved featured status around the same time when the article on Penang Hokkien was created. In fact, the latter was based on this article. Feel free to add new, verified information, but please do not radically reorganize or delete things from this featured article before extensive discussion. – Kaihsu 14:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, I don't want to step on anyone's toes. Basically, I would like to consolidate information and make sure that it is located in the best place.  I agree that there should be an extensive discussion about what to keep and what to delete or move.  Unfortunately, there has not been a great deal of interest so far.  That being the case, rather than slash and burn the Taiwanese article, I've instead mainly focused on the creation of the Amoy (linguistics) article.  I also would eventually like to create separate articles for Quanzhou (linguistics) and Zhangzhou (linguistics).  I welcome any help or suggestions, but am not holding my breath, or I would have passed out by now :-) -- A-cai 22:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

IPA for vowels and hanging references
We need IPA annotations for the vowels; also, the references for PSDB and Pumindian are hanging. – Kaihsu 10:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Now there is some IPA marking around. I wonder if they are accurate.  I will try to check later. – Kaihsu 10:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * In Template:POJtable, I relied primarily on three books for IPA:
 * 閩南語辭典 (Dictionary of Min Nan) ISBN 9578447523
 * 國臺對照活用辭典 (Mandarin Taiwanese Comparative Dictionary of living usage) ISBN 9573240882
 * 台語發音拼音基礎 (Primer of Taiwanese Pronunciation and Spelling) ISBN 9578447493


 * However, these three books make use of some symbols that are not included in standard IPA, or are outdated. In those cases, I have opted for the standard version.  I believe that, on the whole (barring typos), the IPA is accurate.  The zhuyin is also based on 國臺對照活用辭典 ISBN 9573240882.


 * Here's some information on Pumindian. Hopefully someone will put it in the appropriate location.  普闽典 is short for 普通话闽南方言词典 (Dictionary of Mandarin and the Min Nan Dialect), originally published by Xiamen University in 1982.  As far as I know, it is based on Hanyu Pinyin, and is not generally used any where else.


 * The Mandarin article about PSDB (普實台文) seems pretty detailed. Maybe some of it could be used as a basis for an English article, but I'm not sure how many people would be interested in such an article. -- A-cai 15:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Update on Pumindian
I recently found out that 普通话闽南方言词典 (Dictionary of Mandarin and the Min Nan Dialect) was reprinted in Taiwan by Taili Publishers (台笠) in 1993 (they received permission from Fujian People's Publisher). It is currently available for purchase on-line at this web-site. I now own a copy, and would say that it is an excellent addition to the library of anyone seriously interested in Taiwanese. However, be warned that it is in Simplified Chinese script (traditional version of each new entry is given in parens) and goes by Hanyu Pinyin sort order. The back of the dictionary has an index according to Pumindian order (similar finals are grouped together). -- A-cai 14:29, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Primary spoken language of 70% of people in Taiwan?
I find this statistic very hard to believe, where is this number from? The closes I can find is an article that suggests 70% or more of people in Taiwan can speak Taiwanese, but nothing to substantiate the claim that it is the primary spoken language of those people. --BenjaminTsai Talk 00:54, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


 * i think 70% or more can speak minnanyu, but officially they use chinese, reduces the chance of talking to someone who doesn't know minnanyu by accident. in asean, we speak dialect only after we recognising the other person know the dialect, i feel more closer/friendlier to speak in dialect. Akinkhoo 05:22, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * From my experience it seems to vary depending on which part of the country you are in. In Taipei, Mandarin is generally used in public for dealing with short conversations with store clerks, waiters, waitresses, information booths, etc..  In a longer situation, like a cab ride, it is not unusual to switch to Taiwanese.  Age seems to play a role as well, with conversations with older people being more likely to change to Taiwanese.  And amoung family and friends people often use Taiwanese.  Moving south, I hear more Taiwanese spoken in situations where Mandarin would be used in Taipei.Readin 13:14, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Tones
There are discrepancies in the tones, esp. #3. Perhaps this is dialectal? But compare the red-line schematic I found here with the blue-line schematic I found on German wikipedia which matches the verbal description better. However, the 3rd of the large tables below is closer to the red-line schematic (except for tone 6, which has to be wrong). kwami (talk) 08:07, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Need Taiwanese assistance
Need Hokkien/Taiwanese name for pork ball (and gongwan tang, or pork ball soup). Please add to the Pork ball article, thank you. Badagnani (talk) 01:29, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


 * done. A-cai (talk) 00:08, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Sinitic Languages
Isn't the term "Sinitic Languages" the more accurate term rather than "Chinese Languages? 218.170.105.207 (talk) 13:24, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. – Kaihsu (talk) 18:02, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Literary Taiwanese
This information was recently removed. Was it inaccurate? If accurate it certainly belongs in the article. It wasn't sourced, but neither is any of the text around it. The literary version, which was originally developed in the 10th century in Fujian and based on Middle Chinese, was brought to Taiwan by the immigrants. Literary Taiwanese was used at one time for formal writing, but is now largely extinct. Readin (talk) 15:08, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think there is (and have never heard of) such a thing as literary Taiwanese. I am a native speaker of both Taiwanese and Mandarin, and am reasonably literate in classical Chinese. The so-called literary Taiwanese might be classical Chinese read as Han characters in Taiwanese, similar to kanbun in Japan. It is not a language in its own right, because as such it is identical to classical Chinese. – Kaihsu (talk) 21:15, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Kaihsu, I agree that the sentence perhaps exagerates the facts a bit. However, Literary Taiwanese did exist.  Please take a look at 台語文 on Mandarin Wikipedia.  It refers to 荔鏡記 (written in 1566, during the Ming Dynasty) as having been the earliest known work to have been written in vernacular Min Nan.  -- A-cai (talk) 13:10, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

In that case, can we reformulate the statement so it becomes more accurate? Cheers. – Kaihsu (talk) 15:52, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I have made an attempt at such. – Kaihsu (talk) 18:03, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Kaihsu, a valiant first attempt! I think you have captured the essential facts.  Some of the grammar is a little awkward, but we can work out those kinks over time.  My one substantive comment would be the part about Middle Chinese:
 * A literary form of Min Nan once flourished in Fujian and based on Middle Chinese, and was brought to Taiwan by early emigrants. A major work therein is the scripts for a series of plays, Nāi-kèng-kì, published during the Ming Dynasty in 1566. This form of language was used at one time for writing, but is now largely extinct.
 * I'm not sure this part is necessary, since all modern forms of spoken and written Chinese are essentially descendants of Middle Chinese (if I'm not mistaken). Here is a proposed modification to your original:
 * A literary form of Min Nan once flourished in Fujian and based on Middle Chinese, and was later brought to Taiwan by early emigrants. A major work therein is the scripts for a series of plays, Nāi-kèng-kì, the manuscript for a series of plays published during the Ming Dynasty in 1566 , is one of the earlist known works . This form of the language was used at one time for writing, but is now largely extinct.
 * My version is only a suggestion. Thoughts?  -- A-cai (talk) 21:52, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Revised as suggested. – Kaihsu (talk) 10:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

chinese characters for non-charactered words
First, in certain contexts, 走 can mean to go quickly in standard Mandarin, and in other Chinese languages. Descriptively, though, only 跑 means to run. Is 走 the descriptive version of run in minnan?

lâng (person, concrete) is 人. cha-bó͘ (woman) is 家婆 家妹 ka, Japanese loanword, is 嘅, or 個, isn't it? A question word in Japanese, a standard possessive in several Souther Chinese languages used exactly like 的 in standard Mandarin, it topicalizes its complement for either questions or assertions. Goá phō lí is 我抱你, "i hold you" Goá kā lí phō is (是)我個抱你 "it's me holding you" Lí hō͘ goá phō is 你好過抱, "you're held", "don't worry, I've got you" Goá kā chúi hō͘ lí lim, "I've got water for you to drink", is (是)我個,水好你飲 Kin-á-jit hit-ê cha-bó͘ gín-á lâi góan tau khòaⁿ góa, "Today that girl came to my house to see me", is 今日依(nonstandard, maybe 而)???家婆見來觀到看過...or maybe 今呀日, 依???(whatever that is)家婆見呀, 來觀到看過. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.120.85.210 (talk) 20:35, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * In answer to your first question, 走 (cháu) means to run in Min Nan. The Mandarin equivalent would be 跑.


 * As for the other questions, I will attempt to give some sort of answer. The kā in the sentence "Goá kā lí phō" is a function word that most closely resembles the 把 (bǎ) pattern in Mandarin.  There is no direct English equivlant to the bǎ pattern.  Roughly, it identifies the object of a sentence.  The Min Nan pattern is similar (subject + kā + object + verb).  So in the sentence, Goá kā chúi hō͘ lí lim, Goá (subject: I) + kā + chúi (object: water) + hō͘ (verb: give) + lí (modifier: you) + lim (modifier: to drink).  The Mandarin equivalent would be 我把水(交)给你喝.


 * cha-bó͘ is usually rendered as 查某.


 * Finally, the last sentence, Kin-á-jit hit-ê cha-bó͘ gín-á lâi góan tau khòaⁿ góa, should be 今仔日彼個查某囝仔來阮兜看我.


 * I have no idea whether the above answers your question, but hopefully it helps. -- A-cai (talk) 04:13, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

It absolutely does, and thanks lots. In fact, it's exactly what I think is missing from the article--a native's writing in Chinese (I am assuming you're native), which I think has loads of encyclopedic value.

I know the kā pattern looks like the 把 pattern, but phonologically it's really different. So I don't think it's the same word. I'm not a native speaker, so my thoughts may be very unintuitive and wrong, but maybe 將? Either way, it's academic. Oh, and lim sui is definitely phonologically 飲, which simply means 喝 the same way 講 simply means 說. Adding a Taiwanese's self-generated Chinese character translations for some basic words and as gloss for some example sentences would definitely help someone like me, who knows a bit of Chinese and wants to understand Chinese languages as they interact with, borrow, and grow from one another. 208.120.85.210 (talk) 05:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Have you taken a look at the Amoy (linguistics) article? I've put a lot of the grammar comparison stuff in there instead of here, for reasons that I explained in an earlier post (ref: a few posts back).  Briefly, words in Min Nan are hard to pinpoint in terms of the original Chinese character.  Most Chinese dialects are not standardized to the degree that Mandarin is standardized in terms of writing (even Mandarin writing wasn't standardized until Modern times).  However, 台灣話大詞典 (ISBN 9573240785) lists 共 for kā.  Also, you're correct that kā does have some subtle differences with 把.  But conceptually, they are very similar.  Unfortunately, there has not been a lot of in depth studies written in English with respect to Min Nan syntax.  If you can speak Mandarin, and really want to go off the deep end, I recommend Papers on Southern Min Syntax (ISBN 9571509485).  It is the most comprehensive work on the subject of Min Nan syntax that I have found.  Good luck finding it :)  -- A-cai (talk) 06:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I also speak some Cantonese, understand a bit of Hakka and a touch of Teochew, and can read written Cantonese. I remember reading somewhere that the linguistic origins of Taiwanese are tough to trace, but there's a lot of evidence here and it's just a shame there's no good framework for expounding it.  I'll read through Amoy, and start some research with "Papers".  Thanks for your help and attention!  208.120.85.210 (talk) 15:20, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Written Taiwanese
Many Informations about this Subject and Taiwanese in general you find in the PHD Thesis (Leiden University) of a friend of mine: Henning Klöter. Written Taiwanese. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 2005. ISBN 3-447-05093-4 78,00 € [D] At the moment he's teaching at Shida in Taipei in the Guoji Hanxue Yanjiusuo. - (Heinz Lohmann 27. Juli 2008 08:35:51 CST) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.112.6.210 (talk) 00:38, 27 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the tip. For those who are not familiar with Taiwan, The English name for Shida is National Taiwan Normal University.  -- A-cai (talk) 00:47, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Unclear passage
The current version of the article states the following:

Min is the only branch of Chinese that cannot be directly derived from Middle Chinese.

and  (subtag   is the ISO_3166-1_alpha-2 region code for Taiwan) Of the above, we can do nothing about MediaWiki. 'Taiwanese Hokkien' appears to be the preferred en.wiki article title given that there have been multiple discussions. Template renderings are dependent on the definition of the language code supplied to them so, for templates, we can standardize on  and / or ,  , or   and modify the templates and categories as necessary.
 * IANA language-subtag-registry file is now obsolete but grandfathered; refers to Minnan, Hokkien, Amoy, Taiwanese, Southern Min, Southern Fujian, Hoklo, Southern Fukien, Ho-lo (preferred IANA subtag is )
 * several templates use  to refer to 'Taiwanese Hokkien'
 * ISO 639-3 refers to the language name 'Min Nan Chinese'
 * IANA language-subtag-registry file  refers to the language name 'Min Nan Chinese'
 * MediaWiki does not have language support for a language called 'Taiwanese Hokkien' however:
 * MediaWiki uses code  and the name 'Min Nan' to refer to zh-min-nan.wiki (see List of Wikipedias)
 * templates:
 * these templates use  to refer to 'Taiwanese Hokkien'
 * → (deprecated; to be replaced with  – see TfD)
 * categorizes to – calls
 * categorizes to
 * → (replaces )
 * categorizes to
 * → text (has a tool tip that reads: 'Taiwanese Hokkien language text')
 * categorizes to
 * → text
 * categorizes to Category:Articles containing Taiwanese Hokkien-language text
 * the cs1|2 template suite using nan, Min Nan Chinese, zh-min-nan, or Taiwanese Hokkien:
 * categorized in
 * categorized in Category:CS1 foreign language sources (ISO 639-2)
 * categorized in
 * categorized in
 * categorized in
 * categorized in Category:CS1 foreign language sources (ISO 639-2)
 * categorized in
 * categorized in
 * categorized in
 * categorized in
 * categorized in
 * ,, , , and all rely on Module:Lang which overrides the IANA / ISO 639 code-to-name definition (Min Nan Chinese) in Module:Language/data/wp languages (Taiwanese Hokkien) – the provenance of that module is unknown
 * if  is the sole preferred code, no action is required
 * whichever of,  , or   is preferred, Module:Lang/data is modified to override the IANA / ISO 639 / Module:Language/data/wp languages code-to-name definitions
 * if it is desirable to retain  for use when 'Min Nan Chinese' is more appropriate, the override at Module:Language/data/wp languages is disabled and Module:Lang/data is modified to map one of ,  , or   to 'Taiwanese Hokkien'
 * regardless of preferred code / IETF tag,, though deprecated, is modified to remove Min-nan as redundant or wrong
 * categorization will change to match the preferred language code / IETF tag / language name
 * the cs1|2 template suite relies on the MediaWiki language name table. However, cs1|2 is capable of overriding MediaWiki code-to-name / IETF tag definitions
 * whichever of,  ,  , or   is preferred, Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration is modified to override the MediaWiki code-to-name definition to refer to 'Taiwanese Hokkien'
 * if it is desirable to retain  for use when 'Min Nan Chinese' is more appropriate, Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration is modified to map one of ,  , or   to 'Taiwanese Hokkien'

Consistency matters. Article name should match category names should match template renderings. So the question is: —Trappist the monk (talk) 14:55, 6 October 2019 (UTC)
 * which language code and / or IETF tag:  and / or ,  , or  ?

A month on, and there having been no comment, these decisions:
 * – reserved for Min Nan Chinese per IANA and ISO 639-3
 * – created for Taiwanese Hokkien

—Trappist the monk (talk) 15:28, 3 November 2019 (UTC)


 * @Trappist the monk It looks like ISO change request 2021-045 would resolve such concerns? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:14, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Perhaps. I guess we'll have to wait while the bureaucratic gears to grind ...  Thanks for the notice.
 * —Trappist the monk (talk) 13:04, 20 September 2022 (UTC)