Talk:Ted Kennedy/Archive 10

First Congressional Website
There are several sources that indicate Kennedy was the first member of Congress to have an official site on the Web. However, I do not know where to insert such a mention in this article.

There is also an image on Flickr which purports to be a screenshot that some other sources have picked up on but, I can not verify the authenticity of this image. If it is indeed a screenshot of Mr. Kennedy's page used for official business or communication, then it is in the public domain and may be included; if it is a personal page then only a fair-use rationale may be exercised. When entering the URL displayed in the image using the Internet Archive, the earliest revision is of a page from 1996, which is entirely blank except for a hyperlink and message saying the page was moved to http://www.senate.gov/~kennedy

I do not think it needs to be extensive but, a mention would seem to be worthy for inclusion. -- dsprc   [talk]  02:00, 27 January 2015 (UTC)


 * If I understand correctly, the underlying source for this 'first' is this guy Chris Casey, who was the sys admin who set up Kennedy's website. It would be nice to have a corroborating source from a disinterested party.  Wasted Time R (talk) 01:50, 29 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Indeed. I have located a piece by Newsweek from 1995 (plain-text google cache copy) which discusses not just Kennedy having the first Congressional property on the Web, but also the technical exploits of Bill Clinton, Newt Gingrich, Lamar Alexander among others (an interesting read). This may backup Casey's claim as it specifically mentions them by name; the book Media and Democracy (gbooks) published in 1995 seems to lend legitimacy as well (page 165, here on Google Books (scripting required)) since it mentions the MIT AI Lab facilitating these efforts. WP:The Wikipedia Library may be able to dig out references from other print publications of that era as well. However, I don't even know how to request for WP Lib to search for them (or even if they cast such a broad net). -- dsprc   [talk]  04:37, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Heh, I also found this if you go up one spot in the directory: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/Kennedy/
 * There is a file named 'homepage.old' if you save that and tack on .html to the end of it, you can see the site in all of its 1994/5-ish "glory" :) The basic structure is there, just all the sub-pages and images are gone. Seems Casey had an @senate.gov address so probably a staffer. There is also this: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/home-page.html linked on the bottom, which explains some of it, and states: "This project ran from October 1, 1993 to October 1, 1997". "The project grows out of an experiment run during the 1992 Presidential election, when mail agents distributed campaign information, collected questions from citizens, and allowed volunteers to organize." "Working with local politicians, project members developed the first Web site for a US Senator, Senator Kennedy..." Neat stuff. :) --  dsprc   [talk]  05:08, 29 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Okay thanks, that's what I was looking for, especially the Newsweek piece which speaks to its importance. I've added text about this to the article, using that and the MIT AI Lab page as sources.  But I'm not sure about using the screenshot; the Flickr image is copyrighted to Casey – was he a federal employee or a contractor? – and the site may have actually been owned by the MIT lab for all we know.  Images put up on congressional websites have often fallen into a grey area in this regard.  Wasted Time R (talk) 11:33, 30 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm glad you found a place to insert the mention; article is pretty dense. :) AFAIK, the image seems to be public domain. I think the portions which are not PD are those which comprise Netscape Navigator, which may or may not fall under the Mozilla Public License or Netscape Public License (which is mostly the same). Mayhaps is better for WP:Media copyright questions to sort it out. -- dsprc   [talk]  04:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
 * This later version of the Website was served up by senate.gov servers so is most certainly official. It also has the same structure of the homepage.old file linked above. There are other revisions/images in Casey's Congress Web Archive album as well . (IIRC, "all rights reserved" is the default setting for content uploaded to Flickr but, that makes no difference if it turns out to be PD) --  dsprc   [talk]  04:14, 31 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't have enough confidence in the PD status of the image (or the later one) to upload it myself, but if you do, or you get a favorable response from your WP:MCQ query, go ahead and then add the image to the article. It would certainly be an interesting and different image from the kind we usually see in political biographies.  One possible precedent is File:John McCain pork.png, which was added by someone and has been in the McCain article for a long time.  Wasted Time R (talk) 12:54, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Senator / Senior Senator
Kennedy was both the Junior Senator and the Senior Senator during his lifetime. While he was still alive and in office, it made sense for his biography to list him as the current senior Senator. Now that he is out of office (and dead), the biography should be more focused on his life as a whole, and it makes more sense to just call him a senator, since his time as junior senator is in no way distinct from his time as senior senator. In fact, the transition from junior senator to senior (in 1967) is an event so completely without consequence that it does not even merit a mention in the article. Compare that to Associate Justices of the Supreme Court who were later elevated to Chief Justice. They are (rightly) listed first in their biographies as Chief Justices, but their biographies prominently mention their elevation to Chief Justice and treat their time as Chief Justice as a distinct position from their time as Associate Justice. Either Kennedy should be listed as just a senator, or the article should be modified to detail his ascent to senior senator. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.113.122.120 (talk) 15:52, 12 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree, the lead should not say "senior senator", it's not an important distinction now and it's just text left over from when he was still alive. I've spot-checked the articles of several long-serving senators – for the past ones Robert Byrd, Daniel Inouye, Strom Thurmond, Carl Hayden, John C. Stennis, and Ted Stevens none of them say "senior senator" in their leads although obviously they probably were for much of their time – only articles about current senators such as Patrick Leahy and Orrin Hatch say it.  I think 's restoration of this was mistaken.  Wasted Time R (talk) 11:57, 14 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Hearing no further views on this, I have removed the "senior". Wasted Time R (talk) 13:00, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

How did this come to light?
I see the following, inserted ahead of the Spanish-test incident which got both Ted Kennedy and the friend who took that test expelled:

"In his first semester, Kennedy and his friends arranged to copy answers from another student during the final examination for a science class."

Presumably this wasn't detected back then. The (later) expulsion came back to haunt Ted Kennedy as he ran for the U.S. Senate for 1st time in 1962, but how did this earlier item come to light? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.20 (talk) 20:35, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090304004716/http://www.nationaljournal.com:80/njmagazine/cs_20090228_5247.php to http://www.nationaljournal.com/njmagazine/cs_20090228_5247.php

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Picture
Wouldn't it be better to have a picture of Kennedy when he was younger, not one that was taken just before his death? (165.120.184.252 (talk) 15:44, 4 August 2016 (UTC))
 * I don't see any real issue with the pic used now, but you can by all means give suggestions to anything available that isn't copyrighted. Snuggums (talk / edits) 16:54, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Support for terrorism
When did he end his support for the Provisional IRA? (2A00:23C4:638C:4500:C8AF:5DA2:D8FD:A77B (talk) 09:25, 1 January 2017 (UTC))

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"Waitress Sandwich" Reported
Hi, I put in a sentence regarding the story that Kennedy and Chris Dodd sexually assaulted a waitress in December 1985. I think it should be pretty hard to dispute the WP:RS, WP:NPOV, etc the way it's worded... all Wikipedia claims is a straightforward fact: "GQ published a story". 208.76.28.70 (talk) 15:17, 21 November 2017 (UTC)


 * It was already there. Just keep searching for "Dodd". 2600:1002:B120:2714:E535:7AA4:FBCE:8F57 (talk) 03:15, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110302123511/http://www.salon.com/news/ted_kennedy/index.html?story=%2Fnews%2Ffeature%2F2011%2F02%2F28%2FTed_Kennedy_rented_brothel_in_chile to http://www.salon.com/news/ted_kennedy/index.html?story=%2Fnews%2Ffeature%2F2011%2F02%2F28%2FTed_Kennedy_rented_brothel_in_chile
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120327210850/http://tedkennedy.org/service/item/foreign_policy to http://tedkennedy.org/service/item/foreign_policy
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090827044849/http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Statement-by-the-President-on-the-Death-of-Senator-Ted-Kennedy/ to http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Statement-by-the-President-on-the-Death-of-Senator-Ted-Kennedy/
 * Added archive https://archive.is/20090905033921/http://www.dailymail.com/News/200908260276 to http://www.dailymail.com/News/200908260276
 * Added tag to http://www.necn.com/03/24/10/Kennedy-note-Dad-the-unfinished-business/landing_politics.html?blockID=203295&feedID=4212
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090423014553/http://action.aclu.org/site/VoteCenter?congress=111&repId=320&session_num=0&page=legScore to http://action.aclu.org/site/VoteCenter?congress=111&repId=320&session_num=0&page=legScore

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090122224028/http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103 to https://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aM7kTi777dTo&refer=us

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Semi-protected edit request on 28 December 2017
This change https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ted_Kennedy&diff=817375454&oldid=817375208 is wrong. Kennedy attended ONE school in 6th and 7th grades. The other school was for 8th grade. 2600:1001:B11C:BBDB:91E5:CBA:6512:1981 (talk) 03:22, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 22:08, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 December 2017
The text "Ted's affable maternal grandfather, John F. "Honey Fitz" Fitzgerald, was the mayor of Boston, a congressman, and an early political and personal influence" is confusing since he had been out of office for 20 years by this time. The middle part should be changed to say "... who had been the Mayor of Boston and a Congressman...". 2600:1001:B11C:BBDB:91E5:CBA:6512:1981 (talk) 03:29, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: The recency of Fitzgerald's tenure in those positions is not relevant to the sentence. Saying "was the..." is not confusing and is standard English for events having happened in the past. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 22:10, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 December 2017
Says who "Kennedy politely responded by saying that Preident Carter meant to say that he was going to whip inflation." There is no footnote for this sentence at all. Nothing between these two men was polite - they despised each other. 2600:1001:B11C:BBDB:91E5:CBA:6512:1981 (talk) 14:12, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: The citation is in the immediately preceding sentence. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 22:06, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks User:Eggishorn but could you say which of the three cites before or after this sentence contains the support for this? Also could you give the wording in the cite for this being "polite"? Because the inference here is that Carter was aggressive while Kennedy was civil, whereas most sources would indicate they share blame for what happened in this campaign. 70.208.68.86 (talk) 02:14, 29 December 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅ On closer inspection, this sentence failed verification and I removed it as requested. I initially thought from a quick skim that it was in the Time article ("On Who Will Whip Whom: Carter and Kennedy duel over competing health plans" June 25, 1979) but having read more thoroughly, it does not appear at all. Thank you for the question. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 03:46, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 December 2017
This recent change is wrong https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ted_Kennedy&diff=817772314&oldid=817771750 "relinquish" implies some level of voluntarily giving up something - see definition here https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/relinquish - but Kennedy was defeated in a Senate vote. Should be changed back to "lost". 2600:1001:B117:6089:F520:2F22:76AF:FC07 (talk) 03:49, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template., could you, however, explain the word choice indicated.  Was {{diff3|817772314}"relinquished" used in the Clymer biography source? Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 22:09, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the response User:Eggishorn, but this really doesn't need a consensus discussion. The simple fact is that "relinquish" doesn't mean what User:Anthony22 seems to think it means. See http://www.dictionary.com/browse/relinquish?s=t this definition from a second dictionary. If you are defeated in reelection for an office you do not relinquish it. If you step down from an office for some other reason you can be said to be relinquishing it. But that's not what happened in this case with Kennedy. 2600:1001:B117:6089:F520:2F22:76AF:FC07 (talk) 23:37, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
 * 's understanding, or lack thereof, of the proper meaning of the word is not the issue here. The issue is whether the source he used for that edit supports that word or not.  I don't happen to have the source handy myself, which is why I asked for his input. Thanks. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 23:45, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
 * This NPR source https://www.npr.org/sections/politicaljunkie/2009/08/the_ted_kennedy_political_care.html says Kennedy was "ousted". 2600:1001:B117:6089:F520:2F22:76AF:FC07 (talk) 17:33, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
 * This Politico source https://www.politico.com/story/2009/09/kennedy-memoir-has-senate-memories-027158 says Kennedy "lost the post". 2600:1001:B117:6089:F520:2F22:76AF:FC07 (talk) 17:57, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
 * This People source http://people.com/archive/the-political-i-o-u-s-are-called-in-and-robert-byrd-emerges-as-senate-majority-leader-vol-7-no-2/ says Kennedy was "dump[ed]" from the post. 2600:1001:B117:6089:F520:2F22:76AF:FC07 (talk) 18:03, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Yellow check.svg Partly done: using the Politico source. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:41, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you. 2600:1001:B117:6089:F520:2F22:76AF:FC07 (talk) 21:46, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Things will never change Suggestion
Look, Wikipedia users are never gonna reach a consensus about the very obvious issues with the Ted Kennedy page. It is very clear that some people will do anything to protect the name of the Kennedys. That is not meant to be an attack on anyone, I'm just saying that no matter how many people try, The articles on Ted Kennedy will be biased in his favor. It's no different with John F Kennedy. He did terrible things when he was in office but no one's ever gonna talk about that ever. Teddy's name is protected and there's nothing anyone can do about that so leaving edit requests is useless, nothing will ever change. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prime Ed. (I'M BACK!;D) (talk • contribs) 00:14, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 November 2018
I think this article is quite biased towards Ted Kennedy. The section about the Chappaquiddick incident needs to be expanded upon. There was a lot more happened then what is written here. For example, you said he "Lost Control" of the vehicle. You make it sound like he's a lousy driver when Ted Kennedy was probably the best driver out of the entire Kennedy family as he did drag races in his spare time to make side cash growing up. Anyway, that night he was drunk out of his mind when he crashed that car. You also need to include the fact that Mary Jo Kopechne was not wearing an undergarment when they pulled her body out of the river. In short: Include the fact that Kennedy was drunk and this "accident" could've easily been avoided. According to multiple eye-witnesses, Teddy was seen drinking multiple Rum and cokes on his boat that afternoon. He also drank more than anyone at the party that evening. Prime Ed. (I&#39;M BACK!&#59;D) (talk) 00:05, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. DannyS712 (talk) 06:27, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 February 2019
Change the vandalism! Ted kennedy refered to as the bastard that killed. Murderer above his picture, etc Firegenetics (talk) 10:39, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Pictogram voting wait.svg Already done by (diff). —Rain<b style="color:gray;">Fall</b> 10:43, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 June 2019
The sentence "Thomas was confirmed by a 52–48 margin, the narrowest ever for a successful nomination" requires revision. The statement should read "Thomas was confirmed by a 52–48 vote, one of the narrowest margins ever for a successful nomination" given the recent successful nomination of Brett Kavanaugh (50-48, https://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/reference/nominations/Nominations.htm) and the definition of margin (measure of degree or difference, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/margin). The margin of 52-48 would be 4, but the vote itself could not be considered a margin. Inchoatedream (talk) 21:47, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done <b style="color:black">Nici</b><b style="color:purple">Vampire</b><b style="color:black">Heart</b> 22:24, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Death not notable in itself
I am of the opinion that common WP practice is not to add the death of anyone to the lead of their article "unless the cause of death is itself a reason for notability". i.e. the cause of death was remarkably irregular or a death happened under some spectacular and/or extraordinary cirsumstances which were reported on as such by reliable sources. I do not find any such circumstances in this case and thus do not agree with this reversal. Is there any particular reason why Kennedy's death should be mentioned in the lead of this article, something that I do not understand? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 07:19, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Aside from what I mentioned in my linked edit, the press did often talk about Ted's brain cancer both diagnosis after and before the day he died, so it felt incomplete to not mention his cause of death in the lead at all. For what it's worth, this compromise was made by under a similar rationale to what you've given here. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 10:39, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

1964 Plane crash
What was the official cause of the crash in which Kennedy was hospitalised? Valetude (talk) 11:23, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Pilot error. But I'd like to see a better source than the one in the article. http://www.check-six.com/Crash_Sites/Kennedy-N344S.htm --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106; &#x1D110;&#x1d107; 15:48, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Sexual Misconduct Allegations
User:Muboshgu All the allegations I cited are properly sourced, if you have any questions feel free to discuss them here. While they are allegations I cited, corroborations and the exposes by GQ and recently the PBS article concerning Kennedy's reputation among Washington at the time. User:The One I Left — Preceding undated comment added 20:15, 18 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Yeah there are citations, but that doesn't guarantee inclusion. You need to get consensus here to include these things, and there may be good reason to not include them, possibly even in the talk page history (I'm not particularly familiar with these allegations). The way you wrote it struck me as heavily slanted to judging Kennedy as guilty, even making it unclear that these are allegations, not to be treated as uncontested facts. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:28, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Muboshgu For a lot of the accusations they are actual witnesses. On two separate occasions they are two seperate waitresses catching Kennedy in the act. I reported simply the allegations at hand. Kennedy's reputation wasn't a hidden secret. I haven't alleged something that wasn't cited in the sources. The "Sandwich waitress" is a famous incident which has gotten more media attention recently. I cannot think of a reason why not to include these incidents other than to sanitize a persons deeds which made him infamous among the capitol according to the PBS expose and other credible sources. User:The One I Left — Preceding undated comment added 20:41, 18 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The "waitress sandwich" is an allegation I had not heard before, but I read the GQ and NY Mag articles you cited, and I see there is some discussion of it in the talk page archives here. I guess it's getting play again now because Biden put Chris Dodd on his VP selection committee. Even though Ted Kennedy is no longer a BLP, Chris Dodd is, so we need to tread carefully here. It's an allegation, it may well have happened, and I don't object to adding it. But if we do include it, we have to be sure the weight is WP:DUE. One of the talk page commenters I saw said in 2005 (this editor is still active on Wiki) that it shouldn't be its own section. I agree with that. We should look at what else is already on this page about Ted's behavior with women, and where we could integrate it. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:49, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Muboshgu The "waitress sandwich" is an allegation that has not been disputed and has been corroborated by eyewitnesses and was published by many credible journalists. Excluding it feels like the work of a coverup. I added other instance's of Sen. Kennedy's behavior with women, that also was reported and corroborated at the time. Many people didn't give it such weight when Kennedy was alive because he was a Kennedy. Now that the Me too movement has arrived, powerful men who used their power are being held responsible. Kennedy was well connected, and charming. He was and is an icon. However erasing his problematic past with women doesn't due service to the truth. Even those who worked on the hill in the recent PBS expose acknowledge that Kennedy was a Senator that they warned young women who worked in the Capitol to stay away from in fear of possible harassment. User:The One I Left — Preceding undated comment added 00:39, 19 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I am not saying it should be excluded. I see that somebody just this past week added it to Chris Dodd, and that addition feels like the right level of weight for this. Given that the Chappaquiddick incident is included within the timeline narrative of Ted Kennedy, I think this should be as well, as the "waitress sandwich" clearly deserves less weight than Chappaquiddick. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:33, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Muboshgu I agree with you that the "waitress sandwich" does not deserve it's own heading, but Kennedy's alleged widespread sexual misconduct does deserve as equal weight as Chappaquiddick. It's part of his legacy that shouldn't be ignored or swiped under the rug. User:The One I Left — Preceding undated comment added 21:10, 19 May 2020 (UTC)


 * It deserves the weight that reliable sources give it. Based on my initial search, it has been reported on, but nowhere near as heavily as Chappaquiddick. We're not here to right great wrongs. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:52, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Muboshgu I guess tright great wrongs would make sense If I was an investigative journalist doing this reporting, but these instances of sexual misconduct have been reported at the time, and are being looked at in the era we live in today. I could say people think about Ted Kennedy's sexual misconduct about the same of Chappaquiddick. Also that's such a bizarre standard you just set, which is frankly unknowable. The fact that Kennedy's misconduct was reported by reliable sources multiple times should be enough. User:The One I Left — Preceding undated comment added 16:03, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

"I back Jack but Teddy ain't ready"
I do not find it. Was it used during 1962 campaign for JFK unexpired Senate term? Remember we already have Ted being haunted then by cheating. Carlm0404 (talk) 06:16, 31 December 2020 (UTC)