Talk:Teikō Shiotani

No infobox
Please do not add an infobox. See this arbitration report, and, for a more recent discussion, the talk page for the article on Stanley Kubrick. -- Hoary (talk) 10:44, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Date of birth: 22nd or 24th?
TL;DR? We can now assume that it was the 24th. Fuller explanation below. -- Hoary (talk) 01:59, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

There's a lack of agreement over the date in October 1899 of his birth: some sources say the 22nd, others the 24th. I've indicated this in a footnote, using one online source for each. That for the 24th may not look impressive, but the publisher here accurately reflects what's said in the book, which is authoritative. But if anyone wants more:

It's the 22nd according to:
 * Manfred Heiting, ed. Fotografie 1922–82 = Photography 1922–82. Cologne: KölnMesse, 1982. ISBN 3980073009. (chronology, p.235)
 * Uminari no fūkei: Shiotani Teikō shashinshū (海鳴りの風景 塩谷定好写真集) = Teikoh Shiotani Portfolio 1923–1973. 1984. (chronology, p.3)
 * Nihon shashinka jiten (日本写真家事典) = 328 Outstanding Japanese Photographers. 2000. ISBN 4-473-01750-8 (a potted encyclopedia of photographers)
 * Nihon no shashinka (日本の写真家) = Biographic Dictionary of Japanese Photography. 2005. ISBN 4-8169-1948-1. (a very potted encyclopedia of photographers)
 * Nihon no shashinka 101 (日本の写真家101; 101 photographers of Japan). 2008. ISBN 978-4-403-25095-8. (a potted encyclopedia of photographers)
 * The chronology within the biography of Shiotani provided by and for the Teiko Shiotani Memorial Photo Gallery (as I've mentioned in the footnote) Struck through. See below for comments. -- Hoary (talk) 01:59, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

And it's the 24th according to:
 * Geijutsu shashin no jidai: Shiotani-Teikō-ten katarogu (芸術写真の時代 塩谷定好展 カタログ) = The Age of Art Photography: Shiotani Teiko Exhibition Catalogue. 2016. (Japanese-language chronology, p.133; English-language chronology, p.136)
 * Itoshiki mono e: Shiotani Teikō: 1899–1988 (愛しきものへ 塩谷定好1899–1988) = To things beloved: Shiotani Teikō 1899–1988. 2017. (essay by Tsutatani, p.201 [English], p.270 [Japanese])
 * Yume no kageri: Shiotani Teikō no shashin 1899–1988 (夢の翳 塩谷定好の写真1899–1988) = Teiko Shiotani. 2019. ISBN 978-4-7630-1920-2. (chronology, p.224). Additionally, the publisher's description of this book

And in case anyone's wondering:
 * Seitan 120-nen geijutsu-shashin no kamisama Shiotani Teikō to sono jidai (生誕120年 芸術写真の神様 塩谷定好とその時代) = The Legend in Art Photography: Teikoh Shiotani and His Contemporaries. 2019. ISBN 978-4-86611-176-6. This book has a chronology, but it goes year by year, not specifying dates. The date of birth doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere else in this book either.

The date was given as the 22nd in this article until I revamped it. It is given as the 22nd in the (currently disappointing) Japanese-language WP article on Shiotani. (Also in the French-language version, but this is merely a translation of an earlier version of this English-language article.)

One might suppose that a date would be specified here or here, but it is not.

Simply doing a head-count (source-count) shows that 22 gets more "votes". However, 24 comes from recent and seemingly authoritative sources. Yet teiko.jp says 22. I haven't yet encountered any acknowledgement of a disagreement ("Although X states A, this is incorrect; it is actually B, because P"). (My own opinion is that date of birth is unimportant, but of course that one should avoid getting it wrong.) -- Hoary (talk) 10:44, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Update Some time between February 2020 and now, Teiko.jp changed its mind: Previously it said 22; now it says 24. All the other sources I've given above for 22 are of course codices, and so none can change its mind on the (trivial) matter. I see no good reason to dispute the veracity of 24, and have removed the ambiguity/complication from the article. Tip of the hat to for drawing my attention back to the matter of birth date. -- Hoary (talk) 01:59, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Removals
As the article is being fleshed out, it seems appropriate to remove:

a reference (for nothing specific):
 * Nihon shashinka jiten (日本写真家事典) / 328 Outstanding Japanese Photographers. Kyoto: Tankōsha, 2000. ISBN 4-473-01750-8.

an external link:
 * Ono, Philbert. "Shiotani Teiko", PhotoGuide Japan.

an exhibition: Although listed in the chronology within Uminari no fūkei, this doesn't seem to be mentioned in any of the four later books on Shiotani, so I infer that it was a mistake.
 * 1979: Akasaki Nōgyō Kanri Sentā (赤碕農業管理センター), Akasaki.

"other appearances":
 * Modanizumu no jidai (モダニズムの時代) / The Age of Modernism. Tokyo: Tokyo Metropolitan Museum of Photography, 1995. Catalogue of an exhibition held 1995–96 at the Tokyo Metropolitan Museum of Photography. Plate 116 is by Shiotani.
 * Nihon kindai shashin no seiritsu to tenkai (日本近代写真の成立と展開) / The Founding and Development of Modern Photography in Japan. Tokyo: Tokyo Museum of Photography, 1995. Plate 10 is by Shiotani.
 * Nihon no shashin: Uchinaru katachi, sotonaru katachi 1: Torai kara 1945 made (日本の写真　内なるかたち・外なるかたち 1 渡来から1945まで) / Japanese Photography: Form In/Out 1: From Its Introduction to 1945. Tokyo: Tokyo Metropolitan Museum of Photography, 1996. Exhibition catalogue. A portrait appears on p. 83.

-- Hoary (talk) 10:44, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Collections
According to the web page "Teiko Shiotani: Pioneer of Artistic Photography in Japan" (Photo History Museum Fujifilm Square, Fujifilm, 2015), works by Shiotani are also at:


 * 1) Bibliothèque nationale de France
 * 2) Museum für Kunst und Gewerbe Hamburg
 * 3) Santa Fe Museum of Art

However:


 * 1) For BnF, polling the catalogue brings nothing.
 * 2) For MKGH, polling the catalogue brings nothing.
 * 3) I don't even know what's meant by "Santa Fe Museum of Art". (The New Mexico Museum of Art, perhaps?)

-- Hoary (talk) 10:44, 20 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Polling the BnF catalogue brings the Album photobook; imaginably this has been confused with a print. According to the Houston Chronicle review, the 1988–1990 travelling US exhibition of Shiotani's, was planned at the Center of [sic] Contemporary Arts at Santa Fe; perhaps "Santa Fe Museum of Art" is a garbled version of CCA Santa Fe. -- Hoary (talk) 06:19, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Minor appearances
I thought that these shows/books might have (had) a significant quantity of Shiotani, but I find they don't/didn't:


 * Paris – New York – Tokyo. Tsukuba Museum of Photography, Tsukuba, Ibaraki. March–September 1985. Also (as Shashin no 150-nen, 写真の150年; 150 years of photography), Miyagi Museum of Art, Sendai. November–December 1985. A single print. Source: "出品目録 Exhibition list", Sendai Mediatheque, 2005. (This web page has technical problems; in order to display it properly, the browser may have to be told to do so in UTF-8, or Unicode.) For the significance of the exhibition, see "Kaisai shushi" (開催趣旨) (with parallel Japanese, English and French texts), Sendai Mediatheque, 2005.


 * Nihon no shashin 1930-nendai-ten (日本の写真1930年代展, Japanese photographs of the 1930s). Museum of Modern Art, Kamakura. September–October 1988. Only two prints by Shiotani.


 * "Nihon no shashin 1930 nendai" ten zuroku (「日本の写真1930年代」展図録) = Japanese Photography in 1930s. Kamakura: The Museum of Modern Art, Kamakura, 1988. . Only two plates by Shiotani (146, 147).


 * Nihon no geijutsu shashin 1920–1940 (日本の芸術写真1920–1940; Art photography in Japan, 1920–1940). Konica Plaza, Tokyo. June 1988. Catalogue shows nothing by Shiotani.


 * Shashin 150-nen: Umi no shashin meihin-ten (写真150年 海の写真名品展) = 150 Years of Photography: The Photographic Masterpieces of the Sea. Shimonoseki City Art Museum (下関市立美術館), Shimonoseki, Yamaguchi. 1990. One plate (p. 45).


 * Nihon no pikutoriarizumu: Fūkei e no manazashi (日本のピクトリアリズム : 風景へのまなざし) = The Pictorial Landscape in Japanese Photography. Tokyo Metropolitan Museum of Photography, Tokyo, 1992. Two photos (plates 95, 96: pages 114, 115).


 * Ueda Shōji to sono nakama-tachi: 1935–55 (植田正治とその仲間たち：1935～55; Shōji Ueda and his friends, 1935–55). Yonago, Tottori: Yonago City Museum of Art, 1992. No photo by Shiotani.


 * Yoshio Hori (堀宜雄) and Shin'ichi Kuji (久慈伸一), eds. Hikari no nosutarujia: Koseki Shōtarō to Nihon no geijutsu shashin (光のノスタルヂア 小関庄太郎と日本の芸術写真) = Light of Nostalgia: Koseki Shotaro and Pictorial Photographs in Japan. Fukushima: Fukushima Prefectural Museum of Art, 2001. ; . Only three plates by Shiotani (pages 24–25).


 * Rusō no mita yume, Rusō ni miru yume (ルソーの見た夢、ルソーに見る夢) = Rousseau Envisaged: Henri Rousseau and Japanese Artists. Tokyo: Setagaya Art Museum, 2006. . Two prints (from the museum in Yonago) on page 163.


 * Geijutsu shashin no seika: Nihon no pikutoriarizumu jugyō no meihinten (芸術写真の精華 日本のピクトリアリズム珠玉の名品展) = Masterpieces of Japanese Pictorial Photography. Tokyo: Tokyo Museum of Photography, 2011. ; . Exhibition held in the Tokyo Metropolitan Museum of Photography, March–May 2011. Plates 41 and 97 of the catalogue are by Shiotani.

Teiko Shiotani Memorial Photo Gallery (name of)
The website (teiko.jp) of 塩谷定好写真記念館 doesn't seem to specify a non-Japanese name for it. However, its Facebook page is titled "Teiko Shiotani memorial photo gallery (塩谷定好写真記念館)"; and "Teiko Shiotani Memorial Photo Gallery" is also the name used on the English-language acknowledgments page within the catalogue Itoshiki mono e. -- Hoary (talk) 10:44, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

ISBN, OCLC, NCID
If a book has an ISBN, I provide it. There's then little benefit in also providing an OCLC or NCID. However, I provide both of the latter (where possible) when I can't find an ISBN: OCLC is useful in many countries (though almost useless in Japan); NCID is very useful in Japan (though useless anywhere else). -- Hoary (talk) 10:44, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Titles in two languages
I'm using my own convention, which I'll explain via example. Two exhibitions:


 * Shashin no bikan (写真の美観; The beauty of photographs).[...]


 * Itoshiki mono e: Shiotani Teikō 1899–1988 (愛しきものへ 塩谷定好 1899–1988) = To Things Beloved: Shiotani Teikō 1899–1988. [...]

The first has a title in Japanese: 写真の美観. In Hepburn romanization, this is Shashin no bikan. Similarly, the second has a title in Japanese: 愛しきものへ 塩谷定好 1899–1988; or romanized, Itoshiki mono e: Shiotani Teikō 1899–1988. Here's where they differ: the first has only a Japanese title (as far as I'm aware); "The beauty of photographs" is merely my own translation. The second has two titles: the English version was provided by the producers.

I hope that this makes sense to readers and other editors. -- Hoary (talk) 10:44, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Other names in two languages/scripts
It can be very difficult to find material about Japanese people, institutions, etc, if one doesn't know how their names are written (or even what their names are) in Japanese. Wanting to be helpful but not to burden the text unnecessarily, I've adopted a system that I'll explain by example: -- Hoary (talk) 10:44, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
 * "Hakuyō Fuchikami": Person is blue-linked; anyone wanting to know his name in kanji can find it by clicking on this link and looking in the article that's about him; I therefore haven't provided his name in kanji.
 * "": Person is (currently) redlinked, but there's an article about him in Japanese (and perhaps also article(s) in other language(s)); anyone wanting to know his name in kanji can find it by going via WikiData to the Japanese-language article about him; I therefore haven't provided it here.
 * "Hokutō Saigō (西郷北濤)": There's currently no article about him in the Wikipedia of any language; I therefore provide his name in kanji so that people who are interested can easily look him up.


 * I've removed Japanese script that would be obvious, or very easy to guess, for any reader knowing a little Japanese. (As for readers not knowing a little Japanese, it's hard to think how the Japanese script might help them.) -- Hoary (talk) 10:55, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Duck egg curry quotation
I first encountered the duck egg curry quote in Noriko Tsutatani, "To things beloved – Shiotani Teikō 1899–1988" (in English, p. 272); "Itoshiki mono e: Shiotani Teikō: 1899–1988" (in Japanese, 愛しきものへ 塩谷定好1899–1988, p. 203); within Itoshiki mono e. I'm following her in using （中略） to mark an ellipsis (doing so is standard for Japanese). However, I cut slightly less than she does. The ellipsis is long: the chunk skipped within the quotation starts on p.162 and jumps to p.163. It's in Japanese that probably seems odd: Shiotani is speaking to Ueda and the pair were both from Tottori and therefore both speaking in the area's dialect, as the article points out. (Ueda has asked about the photograph Gyoson. His question: 「この写真、おぼえちょるか」.) -- Hoary (talk) 10:45, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Fotografia Giapponese dal 1848 ad Oggi
The chronologies in the recent books tell us that this travelling exhibition (1979–1982) showed 50 photographs by Shiotani. If he was typical of the eight "masters", then the eight would have shown a total of about 400 photographs – and that's not including the miscellanies (historical, and "Modern Trends") not by "masters". I strongly suspect that 50 is a mistake, and that the seven by Shiotani shown in the book were all that were shown. (Certainly there's a certain amount of mindless copying among the miscellaneous chronologies. For example, one exhibition venue is consistently listed as アンヘルム [Anherumu]; there's no such place; what's meant is アルンヘム [Arunhemu], i.e. Arnhem.) Anyway, I deliberately avoid giving the number of prints shown in the exhibition. -- Hoary (talk) 10:45, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Tangible Cultural Properties: Registration versus designation
Currently:
 * Constructed in 1874, this two-storey building was registered as a Tangible Cultural Property of Japan in November 2017
 * . . . the Shiotani family house, built in 1906 and registered as a Tangible Cultural Property of Japan at the same time

An obvious, if minor, stylistic improvement would be "was designated a Tangible Cultural Property of Japan". But please don't do this. There are "Registered Tangible Cultural Properties of Japan" and there are "Designated Tangible Cultural Properties of Japan". This pair (as well as other, closely related buildings) are classed among the former, not among the latter. -- Hoary (talk) 10:45, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Sumoto monument
The chronology for Sadayoshi Shiotani (as he's called) on p.235 of the 1982 Photokina catalogue contains one surprise for 1979: A monument was erected in his honour at the Wado Hospital, Sumoto City, Awaji Island. I don't know what relation Shiotani may have had with Sumoto, I can't find any reference to any hospital there that currently uses this name, and don't know anything else about this. -- Hoary (talk) 10:45, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Book availability
Those outside Japan who aren't lucky enough to have access to a library that stocks any of the six major books may wonder how they might get hold of one or more among them. -- Hoary (talk) 22:50, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Shiotani Teikō meisakushū: 1923–1973 (塩谷定好名作集 1923–1973) = Album 1923–1973: Teikoh Shiotani. . . Long out of print, and uncommon.
 * Uminari no fūkei: Shiotani Teikō shashinshū (海鳴りの風景 塩谷定好写真集) = Teikoh Shiotani Portfolio 1923–1973. . . Long out of print, but it's obvious that many were printed: cheap copies are easy to find in Japan.
 * Geijutsu shashin no jidai: Shiotani-Teikō-ten katarogu (芸術写真の時代 塩谷定好展 カタログ) = The Age of Art Photography: Shiotani Teiko Exhibition Catalogue. . . New copies available here.
 * Itoshiki mono e: Shiotani Teikō: 1899–1988 (愛しきものへ 塩谷定好1899–1988) = To things beloved: Shiotani Teikō 1899–1988. . . New copies available here.
 * Yume no kageri: Shiotani Teikō no shashin 1899–1988 (夢の翳 塩谷定好の写真1899–1988) = Teiko Shiotani. Edited by Noriko Tsutatani. Tokyo: Kyūryūdō, 2019. ISBN 978-4-7630-1920-2. New copies available as for any conventionally published book.
 * Seitan 120-nen geijutsu-shashin no kamisama Shiotani Teikō to sono jidai (生誕120年 芸術写真の神様 塩谷定好とその時代) = The Legend in Art Photography: Teikoh Shiotani and His Contemporaries. ISBN 978-4-86611-176-6. New copies available as for any conventionally published book.

Not a GA review, but some suggestions for improvement
(t &#183; c)  buidhe  08:35, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) The lead could use expansion. I know writing leads is hard, but expanding to two paragraphs might help it be more proportional to the article length and cover the major aspects of the topic.
 * 2) Footnotes seem excessive to me. Are there any that would be better off incorporated into the text? (For example, #18) Some would be better deleted if they are not closely related to Shiotani.
 * 3) Some of the content in the footnotes does not have an obvious, verifiable source. For example, note #19, "The title has been translated as Landscape with Forecasted Weather and Landscape with weather report."
 * 4) The use of Japanese characters and romanization is excessive and makes the article hard to read. In most cases the foreign language name should be covered in the Wikipedia article about that topic. For example, place names should not be provided in multiple languages in most articles not related to geography. Per MOS:FOREIGN, "Foreign terms should be used sparingly."


 * , sorry for the delay in responding. It's only today that I've noticed your edits to the article or the presence of your comments. I find some of the latter rather annoying ... which is a good sign that they're worthwhile. I'll give each serious thought; and I'll implement it, explain my reason for not doing so, or whatever. Meanwhile, one of your edits prompted a second look at what turned out to be a revised version of a page I'd cited; the revision cleared up the mystery over the man's birth date. -- Hoary (talk) 02:30, 10 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Hours later,, and your comments continue to irritate me. Which surely is a sign of their good value! Your first and second comments: I'll try to get around to both matters a little later. Your third: Aaargh, I started to tackle this defect via the single note that you drew to my attention. So I pulled eight books off my bookshelf and looked within them for the photo in question. In short, one note done. I suppose I'll have to attend to the other notes too [groan]. Your fourth: I must have been unsuccessful in communicating. Let's look at a humdrum example:
 * Shiotani and four other photographers made a trip around the coasts of Shimane Prefecture: Kaka (加賀), Konami (小波), Shichirui, Mihonoseki, and particularly Okidomari.
 * (i) Shimane Pref and Mihonoseki both have articles in en:WP, and anyone wanting to know how their names are written can click the respective link and take a look. (ii) Shichirui and Okidomari only have articles in ja:WP, AFAIK, and again, anyone wanting to know how their names are written can click the respective link and take a look. (iii) Kaka and Konami don't have articles in either WP; and anyone wanting to look up either in a gazetteer or similar would have to guess their spelling. ("Konami" could be 小波, 小浪, 小並, 子波, etc; it's similarly difficult for "Kaka".) And therefore I helpfully (?) provide Japanese script for the third type of name only. I tried to carry out this three-way distinction for Japanese names throughout the article, but wouldn't be surprised if I slipped somewhere. -- Hoary (talk) 06:51, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I do see this as an issue for non-Latin alphabets, but on the other hand the use of multiple names does clutter the article a lot and detracts from readability. If notable consider starting stubs on the Japanese places that do not have articles in either language yet. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  07:11, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I'll have to think about the matter a little, . I loathe stubs. (Am I unusual in this?) But thank you for continuing to pester me: it's salutary! -- Hoary (talk) 08:05, 10 January 2023 (UTC)


 * I've amplified the lead. -- Hoary (talk) 07:21, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Vest Pocket Kodak, etc
has deleted material about the names in Japanese of the Vest Pocket Kodak (and its Japanese clones), with the comment "this is way too much detail on something that is not closely related to the article topic, belongs in the Wikipedia article about the camera". I'd say that the besutan is closely related to Shiotani. That's a matter of opinion, but a simple fact is that en:WP currently lacks Vest Pocket Kodak, Vest-pocket camera, or similar. I'm not planning to revert the deletion; but any future editor working on an article about 127-format folding cameras (not only Kodaks!) and their use in Japan (in the hands of Shiotani, Shōji Ueda, a bunch of other "art" photographers, as well of course as "vernacular" photographers) may like to recycle this note. -- Hoary (talk) 02:30, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

View with Weather Forecast
I've translated Tenki yohō no aru fūkei (天気予報のある風景) as View with Weather Forecast. This despite the published use of different translations: (i) Landscape with Forecasted Weather and (ii) Landscape with Weather Report. Why? The former sounds to me like a mistranslation, or very unidiomatic, or a bit of both. As for the latter, "weather report" sounds to me like news of the weather as it has recently been, or as it now is (a concept whose standard Japanese expression is kishō jōhō, 気象情報), whereas tenki yohō (天気予報) means weather forecast. -- Hoary (talk) 07:00, 10 January 2023 (UTC)