Talk:Tevfik Fikret

Ottoman or Turkish Poet?
Obviously both. He was an Ottoman citizen but he was also Turkish and wrote in Turkish. The exact definitions of these categories do not exist, at least I could not find it. There does not seem to be a requirement of "citizenship" anywhere. Though logic dictates that Tevfik Fikret is obviously a Turkish poet in addition to being an Ottoman, I can understand how logic and common sense can be in short supply on these pages sometimes. Numerous Ottoman "citizens" are listed in the Turkish category for example and vice versa. Note that Ottoman citizens of Armenian, Greek or Kurdish origin are routinely categorized under their "national" categoties while opposite is rarely true. Since these two categories, Ottoman and Turkish Poets exist, then it is correct that Tevfik Fikret belongs to both until there is a different official and more definitive Wiki description of the categories. Regards. Murat (talk) 17:51, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * You can think and create other categories. Takabeg (talk) 17:59, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Now there is category Category:Ottoman Turks. Takabeg (talk) 18:03, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * To keep this article historically accurate, it should say Ottoman poet(which links to Turkish literature). And just leave the link to Turkish literature intact. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:54, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Category
Category:Turkish poets is one of the sub-category of Category:Turkish people by occupation.

Category:Turkish people by occupation is one of the sub-category of Category:Turkish people.

And Category:Turkish people = This category page lists notable citizens of the Republic of Turkey.

Even in tr:Tevfik Fikret (Turkish Wikipedia), Ottomans' category is used. Takabeg (talk) 17:54, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * This is NOT Turkish Wiki, which obviously has a particular point of view different than an English Wikipedia. There is after all a Turkish Poets category and I am yet to hear an argument why Tevfik Fikret does not belong there.  You can feel free to create other categories and include him there.  Regards.  Murat (talk) 18:08, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I know that here is not Turkish Wikipedia. I said even in Turkish Wikipedia. As you know, Turkish Wikipedia is unfortunately more national tendency than English Wikipedia. Tevfik Fikret died in 1915. So it's impossible for him to become a citizen of the Republic of Turkey. If you insisted in his ethnicity, you must find sources refer to his ethnicity and put Category:Ottoman Turks. For now I can say that he was a poet in Ottoman language. Takabeg (talk) 19:16, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * You seem to be confused and patently wrong on many fronts here: 1-Tevfik Fikret did not write in "Ottoman Language", he wrote in Turkish language.  There is/was NO "Ottoman Language" per se.  Sometimes the overly sophisticated palace style, infused with many Arabic and Persian words is referred to as "Ottoman", but it is NOT a seperate language 2-In fact, he used a rather pure and plain Turkish, which makes him readily understandable by even modern generations today.  This can be said about very few Ottoman poets.  He specially deserves the label "Turkish" poet. It was him who inspired Ataturk's generation. 3-If you had cared to look into the Turkish Poets list as I had suggested, you would have discovered that there are MANY poets in that list who were born centuries before Tevfik Fikret.  4- It seems to escape your logic that a poet can be both Turkish AND Ottoman, or Ottoman AND Greek for example.  5-I suggest you reconsider my statement about the "perspectives".  Countless Armenian and Greek or Kurdish writers and artists have been listed under non-Ottoman or non-Turkish categories for example, though they were 100% Ottoman. I never observe this level sensitivity in those siutations. 6-There seems to be an unhealthy obsession with Ottoman/Turkish stuff here.  May I suggest that you keep away from subject matters that are not very familiar to you or where you are too emotionally invested to be objective. Murat (talk) 23:49, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

If we want, we can find terms such as "Ottoman Armenian language", "Ottoman Greek language" etc.... but they are uncommon. Normally the Ottoman language (لسان عثمانى Lisan-i Osmani) means Ottoman "Turkish" language. I suspect the contemporary usage of the term لسان ترکی عثمانى (Lisan-i Turki Osmani) and عثمانلیجه‎ (Osmanlıca).
 * First of all, There is/was NO "Ottoman Language" per se. is nothing but your groundless claim.
 * Ottoman language -Llc - 1,880 results
 * Ottoman Turkish language -Llc 2,440 results
 * Osmanlıca -Llc 9,360 results
 * Osmanlı Türkçesi -Llc 2,690 results


 * So it is Turkish! In fact, look it up right here Ottoman Turkish language. It is not a seperate language, but very formal Turkish mostly (not always)writtien in an old script.  Are you claming Turkish to be a distinct language than "Ottoman"?Murat (talk) 04:47, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * By the way, have you noticed the "Turkish Portal" tag on top of this page?Murat (talk) 04:47, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Not only Tevfik Fikret, but also Abdullah Cevdet (Kurdish), Ömer Seyfettin (Circassian), Ziya Gökalp (Zaza), are known with thier "simplification" of the Ottoman language. Their Ottoman language was closer to modern Turkish than former Ottoman languaeg. But Before 1928 people in the Ottoman Empire and the early Turkish Republic wrote down the Ottoman language in the Arabic script. So it is related with script rather than form. Anyway Tevfik Fikret was a citizen of the Ottoman Empire. Takabeg (talk) 04:18, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Still not getting it, it seems. Tevfik Fikret wrote in Turkish.  He was an Ottoman Turk, and all the world referred to the language he used as Turkish.  He never wrote in "Ottoman language" becasue such a language does not exist.  Can you explain why you feel the need and urge to remove this particular category which also includes Yunus Emre, a poet who lived centuries before?  If you think he is an Ottoman poet, fine, there is already such a category included.  This seems to be simply disruptive editing at this point, without any constructive purpose.Murat (talk) 04:34, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Sources ? Takabeg (talk) 04:54, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * First line of the article reads: "Tevfik Fikret (December 26, 1867 – August 19, 1915) (توفیق فکرت) was the pseudonym of Turkish poet Mehmed Tevfik." Cheers. Murat (talk) 05:39, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Some can say that he was a Turkish poets. Some can sey that he was a Ottoman poets. Some can say he was a Ottoman Turkish poets. But Category:Turkish poets was used for poets who are the citizen of the Republic of Turkey. Takabeg (talk) 05:46, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * You seem confused. No one lese is.  The article itself makes it clear. Murat (talk) 02:05, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Historically, he was an Ottoman poet who is considered the founder of the modern school of Turkish poetry.


 * You still seem confused. First wrongfully claimed category based on citizenship.  Now claims of "historical" roots for the basis of category. Which one?  There are numerous Turkish poets who were Ottoman citizens, and numerous Ottoman poets who were Turkish.  Still confused?Murat (talk) 06:05, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
 * He died in 1915. It is impossible for him to become a citizen of Turkey. It's easy. Takabeg (talk) 06:08, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
 * If you want, you can creat category for this "literature group". Do you know where your fault lies? We know. You've never used sources and edit only by your own POV. Takabeg (talk) 06:13, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
 * What can be POV about Tevfik Fikret being a Turkish poet, which is what the article says in the first place. Only an edit warrior will avoid this simple reality in pursuit of other agendas. His being an Ottoman citizen certainly does not disqualify him from being Turkish.  Neither there is a limit on the categories.  I would say it this is your mistake, but it does not seem like a mistake at all.Murat (talk) 06:23, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
 * As I've said before, someone can call him "Ottoman poet", someone can call him "Turkish poet", someone can call him "poet of the New Literature movement", someone can call him "the founder of the modern Ottoman literature" But in the view of categorization, he is categorized into Category:Ottoman poets. Takabeg (talk) 06:47, 10 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Seems like a personal opinion or preference. Regardless, does not conflict or disqualify from other categories. Do not make changees without concensus. Especially do not make changes to justify the original vandalisms. Murat (talk) 19:23, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Copyright
I have performed a web search with the contents of Murat's this edits, and it appears to include material copied directly from http://www.turkeyodyssey.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1914:tevfik-fikret&catid=18:articles&Itemid=9 (Turkey Odyssey), which says "Copyright © 2011 Turkey Travel Guide Copyright © 2009 Turkey Travel Guide", and http://www.turkishculture.org/literature/literature/turkish-authors/tevfik-fikret-424.htm (Turkish Cultural Foundation), which says "(c) Copyright 2011 Turkish Cultural Foundation". Takabeg (talk) 22:05, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

POV pushing edit
This edit is completely wrong. Bacause of:

1. Charles Kurzman (Democracy Denied, 1905-1915: Intellectuals and the Fate of Democracy, Harvard University Press) used "Ottoman poet" (Tevfik Fikret, an Ottoman poet). We must edit according to sources, not by POV's.

2. His nationality was Ottoman = citizen of the Ottoman Empire (Turkish: Osmanlı tebaası ) by categorizaton of Wikipedia.

Possibly his ethnicity may be Turkish, but I don't know. If this would be proved with reliable sources, we can put Category:Ottoman Turks. Takabeg (talk) 07:10, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Ottoman vs. Turkish debate
I saw this case being posted at the 3RR noticeboard. We have an article on Ottoman poetry, and it might be reasonable to consult scholarly works which can help assign Fikret to Ottoman poetry or to Poetry of the Republic of Turkey. The latter article talks about "..'Turkish Poetry' beginning with 1911 with the national literature movement", but it does not include Tevfik Fikret as one of the named poets of the modern period. Our article on Ottoman poetry does not include him as a named poet either. If he is a borderline case, perhaps a section could be added to the article which explains the issues. Since he appears to be a famous man, something must have been written about him which could settle this issue. EdJohnston (talk) 17:22, 11 July 2011 (UTC)


 * According to:


 * Merriam-Webster's encyclopedia of literature, By Merriam-Webster, Inc, p1102. Mentions Tevfik's contribution to "Turkish" poetry. Founder of the modern school of Turkish poetry. Since at the time there was no Republic of Turkey, then "Turkish" would mean language, not nationality.
 * Foreign Investment in the Ottoman Empire: International Trade and Relations, By Necla Geyikdagi, p16. Calls him an Ottoman intellectual.
 * Democracy denied, 1905-1915: intellectuals and the fate of democracy, By Charles Kurzman, p246. Calls him an Ottoman poet.
 * The Turkish muse: views & reviews, 1960s-1990s, By Talât Sait Halman, Jayne L. Warner, p62. States Tevfik dominated Ottoman poetry.
 * Rise of the young Turks: politics, the military and Ottoman collapse, by Mehmed Naim Turfan, p305. Calls him an Ottoman "liberal" poet.
 * I believe he should be mentioned as an "Ottoman Turk", keep the category Ottoman poet, keep the category Turkish poets since he was the founder of modern Turkish poetry. Also what has been over looked/ignored is that Fikret wrote during the time and against the Ottoman Empire. This fact strongly supports calling him an Ottoman Turk poet. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:04, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Image?
Servet-i Funun has an image of him before his death (not a morbid photo) https://archives.saltresearch.org/bitstream/123456789/129372/643/PFSIF9180822A033%20(1918-08-22).jpg

It may be PD and may be uploadable to the Commons WhisperToMe (talk) 05:30, 16 March 2021 (UTC)