Talk:The Points Guy

Is Points Guy a reliable source of info?
I was asked to comment on this issue by Legobot; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#rfc_B859E85

To do so, I tried to research the reliability of the content published by The Points Guy. I failed to find an adequate number of evaluations that I could cite. Forbes magazine speaks highly of them but more as an Influencer than as a highly reliable source of information. https://www.forbes.com/sites/thepointsguy/#1b3613f73933 I found no sources that claim that The Points Guy publishes false information. But at this point, I do not have full confidence in The Points Guy as a source that Wikipedia editors should cite.

P.S. Brian Kelly is a Contributor with Forbes! Peter K Burian (talk) 13:36, 1 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Another interesting point. The reliable Entrepreneur (magazine) says of The Points Guy: it remains successful today, with the help of additional revenue streams via parterships with companies such as Capital One url=https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/324042 |publisher=Entrepreneur


 * If The Points Guy has such a partnership, why is Forbes magazine paying Brian Kelly to review Capital One credit cards?? Capital One Venture Rewards Review, The Points Guy, Contributor https://www.forbes.com/sites/thepointsguy/2019/03/21/capital-one-venture-rewards-review/#1c876c81b9f7 Peter K Burian (talk) 13:54, 1 April 2019 (UTC)


 * AND Forbes makes this admission in another article: "Forbes has partnered with The Points Guy for our coverage of credit card products. Forbes and The Points Guy may receive a commission from card issuers". https://www.forbes.com/sites/thepointsguy/2018/12/10/capital-one-transfer-partners-available/#4b23d83f49a4 Peter K Burian (talk) 13:59, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
 * A Forbes article contributed by TPG should be considered a TPG article, not a Forbes article. So it's more like TPG making the claims themselves than a third party source mentioning them. But thanks for your research. feminist (talk) 03:47, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, the research did pay off. The article is now far more balanced than it was previously. Peter K Burian (talk) 12:53, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Major edit has turned this article into a PR blurb for The Points Guy, IMHO
I had added a lot of fully-cited content to give this article a more balanced point of view. Nearly all of that was recently deleted, leaving the article weaker than it was before.

I don't know the rationale for this but am reinstating some of the fully-cited content that was deleted in the past few days. If those are again deleted, I will need to start a feedback request service to get other editors to determine whether the content that I had added is of value.

This is one example of fully-cited content that had been deleted; I just added it again: According to Bloomberg, the site also operates as a travel agency, serving clients in the state of New York. One of the reasons for the site's financial viability is the revenue stream provided by partners such as Capital One.

Note: The revision made by User:Feminist was definitely valid; I am only questioning the next editor's deletions. Peter K Burian (talk) 19:00, 11 April 2019 (UTC)


 * P.S. AND, A large amount of new content was added recently, by the same editor, with no citations. (It's easy to see all of those at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Points_Guy&type=revision&diff=891996458&oldid=890464452)


 * Is this acceptable in an encyclopedia article? Your thoughts, User:Newslinger, User:JzG, User:EllenCT? Peter K Burian (talk) 19:19, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I've restored my revision for now. feminist (talk) 03:23, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I reviewed Dorizinn's edits, and the only appropriate information I see that should remain in the article are the Red Ventures acquisition and the Forbes recognition, though for the acquisition I used another source instead. feminist (talk) 03:38, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Great to see all of the fluff, without citations, is gone again. Peter K Burian (talk) 13:14, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Does anyone know of a source other than that Bloomberg profile blurb to back up the assertion that TPG sells booking services or travel packages? I've never heard of any such thing and I've been reading TPG for years. The closest thing I know of was that Brian Kelly, when he first started TPG, offered services to advise individuals on how to use their points and miles to book travel, but he stopped doing that several years ago. (And, in the interest of full disclosure, I occasionally contribute to TPG as a freelance writer. As such, I'll refrain from editing the article myself.) Reirab (talk) 07:29, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Bloomberg is a solid source Reirab, but yeah, I cannot find any indication whatsoever that ThePoints Guy acts as a travel agency. And I really did search! OK, am deleting that content. Sometimes, even Bloomberg can be incorrect, though less likely in their business news articles. Peter K Burian (talk) 14:45, 14 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Agreed that their business news articles are normally a solid source. It just looks like their business profile got it wrong in this instance. Thanks for fixing. Reirab (talk) 22:37, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Proposed Updates to Article
Hi. I have a few proposals and would love an independent review. I work for The Points Guy, so I am reaching out here for editors to review, as the Help section directs for those with a conflict of interest. I have reviewed major Wikipedia policies, especially WP: Reliable Sources, and many Wikipedia articles.

1. Please remove James Cury from the Infobox.

Rationale: The source is five years old. Cury is listed as an editorial director, not the CEO or a founder, the typical positions mentioned in an Infobox. Cury is actually no longer the editorial director or at the company, as you can see from the Team page of the website or Cury's LinkedIn.


 * Yes check.svg Done after staring at this for way longer than I care to admit, because I kept reading that as "James Cury is five years old" and was trying to figure out how to politely ask how a five-year-old has a LinkedIn page.

2. In the History section, please update the first paragraph:

Prior to founding TPG, Kelly worked at Morgan Stanley, as an IT recruiter in the company's human resources department, and he ran, for colleagues, an informal travel agency-type operation, aimed at maximizing return on earned travel reward points. In 2011, TPG began affiliate marketing, which is the source of much of the company's revenue; shortly thereafter, Kelly quit his position at Morgan Stanley

WITH:

Prior to founding TPG, Kelly worked at Morgan Stanley as an IT recruiter, and ran an informal travel agency-type operation for his colleagues aimed at helping them maximize their return on earned travel reward points. In June 2010, Kelly launched The Points Guy blog, where he reviewed travelers’ frequent flyer miles, credit card points and travel goals. He continued to book vacations. TPG began monetizing content through affiliate marketing in Feb 2011, which became the major source of the company's revenue; shortly thereafter, Kelly quit his job at Morgan Stanley.

Rationale: Slightly rewrites for grammar, sentence structure and missing punctuation. Adds date Kelly started TPG website. Adds NYT source to support the statement “the source of much of the company's revenue” - the statement is not present in the current source.
 * Yes check.svg Done  &#x2130; mi1y&#x29fc;T&middot;C&#x29fd; 01:47, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

3. In the History section, please replace the second paragraph:

In 2012, Bankrate, a company that publishes and promotes financial content, acquired TPG. In a 2014 interview, Brian Kelly made this comment: "I still have a vested ownership interest in TPG and I retain 100% editorial control".

With two new paragraphs:

In 2012, consumer-finance company Bankrate acquired TPG. Red Ventures, a media company, acquired Bankrate in 2017, and TPG became part of Red Ventures’ portfolio.

Rationale: Replaces weak sources. Adds details about Bankrate acquisition of TPG, and transfer of ownership to Red Venture. Removes Brian Kelly quote - it is outdated and incorrect. While Kelly.


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: I think you dropped some text here: you said "two new paragraphs", then provided one paragraph, and your rationale is cut off. Feel free to fix and reopen this one.  &#x2130; mi1y&#x29fc;T&middot;C&#x29fd; 01:47, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

4. In the History section, after the 3rd paragraph that begins “Between 2012 and 2017, Brian Kelly and ThePointsGuy…” please add a new 4th paragraph:

In 2016, TPG started Points for Peace, a partnership with the nonprofit PeaceJam Foundation, which donates frequent flyer miles to help Nobel Peace Prize winners travel to developing countries.

Rationale: Adds formation of Points for Peace, a partnership with a nonprofit covered in notable news sources.


 * Yes check.svg Done  &#x2130; mi1y&#x29fc;T&middot;C&#x29fd; 01:47, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

5. In the History section, please remove the 2nd, 3rd and 4th sentences in the fourth paragraph:

Bankrate was acquired by digital marketing company Red Ventures in 2017. The company now operates out of offices in Austin, Charlotte, New York, and London. London office was opened in 2019 as part The Points Guy’s expansion into the UK and UK-dedicated website.

Rationale: Red Venture acquisition of Bankrate was covered in request #4. This section is primarily about Bankrate, not The Points Guy and the Reuters source does not mention The Points Guy. The source mentioning the company’s offices is not reliable - it appears to be a personal or PR blog.


 * Yellow check.svg Partly done: Removed the sentence starting with 'London office' and its source. For the rest, I assume you mean request #3; see comments above on that one. It's also unclear to me whether Bankrate as a whole operates from those four offices, or TPG specifically does.  &#x2130; mi1y&#x29fc;T&middot;C&#x29fd; 01:47, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

6. In the History section, please replace this paragraph:

“In 2020, Business Insider reported Kelly to abuse drugs and staff. ”

WITH:

In 2020 Business Insider reported that multiple TPG employees had anonymously accused Kelly of fostering a “toxic work environment.” In response to the allegations, Red Ventures said: "Mr. Kelly unequivocally denies all allegations of drug use, sexual harassment and assault. TPG and its parent company, Red Ventures, do not tolerate any form of harassment, exploitation or discrimination in the workplace and take seriously their responsibility to create environments where people feel safe, respected, and able to do their best work.”

Rationale: Rewrites and expands to provide context into the Business Insider story. Adds response to allegations from Red Ventures and Kelly. Adds reliable source.


 * Yes check.svg Done Merged the existing text with the first sentence of yours; otherwise done.  &#x2130; mi1y&#x29fc;T&middot;C&#x29fd; 01:47, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

7. In the History section, please update the last sentence:

In 2021, The Points Guy released an app to track airline points and miles across multiple airlines. On January 22, 2022, American Airlines filed a lawsuit against The Points Guy for the app, which they claimed violated its terms of service.

WITH:

The Points Guy released an app to track airline points and miles across multiple airlines in September 2021.

TPG preemptively sued American Airlines in January 11, 2022, asking a Delaware court to make it legal for customers to manage their frequent flyer data on a third-party website. The filing was in response to a cease and desist letter from American Airlines, demanding TPG not track the data of its AAdvantage members who opted-in to sharing their info with TPG app. On January 22, 2022, American Airlines filed suit against The Points Guy in a federal court in Texas, claiming the company’s app violated its trademark and the terms of the airlines’ frequent flyer program.

Rationale: Slightly rewrites first sentence for style and to add missing source. Breaks American Airlines lawsuit into its own paragraph, expands on the details of lawsuit and counter suit, and adds reliable sources.
 * Yes check.svg Done with minor grammar fixes.  &#x2130; mi1y&#x29fc;T&middot;C&#x29fd; 01:47, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

8. In the Products and Services subsection, please remove:

Sponsored news article Every article usually begins with the following disclaimer: "This post contains references to products from one or more of our advertisers. We may receive compensation when you click on links to those products. Terms apply to the offers listed on this page. For an explanation of our Advertising Policy, visit this page."

Rationale: There is no source here. This is just original research. WP:NOR. Affiliate marketing disclosure language is a common practice on media sites. See Request #1 with links to The New York Times and Conde Nast’s GQ citing similar language and practices. This section is trying to make the site look less credible to readers who may not understand that affiliate marketing links are standard even on editorially independent publications.


 * Yes check.svg Done Agreed, that's a weird section.

Thank you! Cheergirl325 (talk) 15:36, 14 June 2022 (UTC)


 * User:3mi1y Thanks very much for your feedback and your willingness to implement most of the changes proposed above. I absolutely see your point about Request #3, I don’t really know what happened there but here’s what the replacement I was requesting (and the rationale behind it) should have looked like:

In 2012, consumer-finance company Bankrate acquired TPG. Red Ventures, a media company, acquired Bankrate in 2017, and TPG became part of Red Ventures’ portfolio. Kelly remained with the company, overseeing brand management and content development.


 * Rationale: Replaces weak sources. Adds details about Bankrate acquisition of TPG, and transfer of ownership to Red Ventures. Removes Brian Kelly quote - it is outdated and incorrect - and replaces it with Kelly’s current position (as of November 2021) from a supporting reliable source.


 * Re: Request #5, I think that in History, fourth paragraph the third and fourth sentences about the office locations should still be removed, because the Digiday source which is cited for it (source #2 in the article) does not discuss, even in passing, the locations of any The Points Guy or RedVentures offices.


 * Finally, since the requests here improve the content, can you remove the warning flag on top of the article? The editor who placed it did not start a Talk page discussion about why, so policy says it can be removed by any editor. WP:WTRMT


 * Would you be willing to consider implementing these changes? And thanks very much again for your time. Cheergirl325 (talk) 20:16, 20 December 2022 (UTC)