Talk:Theodwin of Santa Rufina

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Copy of conversation between the talk pages of User:CarlosPn and User:Stalwart111:

Theodwin
G'day mate. More fun and games with centuries-old references... ha ha. One source has him listed as attending the string of 1140s papal elections though is also confirms a number of returns to Germany in those same years. In 1145 he is supposed to have attended the election but in that same year he was sent to Germany prior to the second Crusade. The same is the case earlier in 1143, as indeed you pointed out. Surely it's possible both are correct. Rome to Germany would have been a fairly lengthy journey but clearly not impossible given records suggest he went back and forth a number of times.

Then there's the 1153 election two years after one source suggests he died. But another source suggests he died in 1153, in Rome (which presumably would have been not long after the election were it true). I've included a note about the date-of-death contention and have better-qualified the suggestion he attended the papal election.

Any ideas for the other issues? Would be nice to resolve them - at least well enough to acknowledge the conflicting sources while giving as much information as possible.

Stalwart111 (talk) 23:16, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi! Thanks very much your message.


 * Actually, no contemporary catalogs of the participants of the papal elections in 12th century exist. The catalogs presented on Miranda's website are taken from the very old work of Alphonsus Ciacconius Vitae et res gestae Pontificum Romanorum et S. R. E. Cardinalium, first edited in 1601. It was a pioneer work on the topic and as such is often inaccurate; moreover, Ciacconius presented these lists rather as catalogs of the cardinals living at the time of the election than as the lists of participants in the electoral proceedings Modern scholars who try to reconstruct the lists of electors in 12th century used to make it by the examination of the subscriptions of the solemn papal privileges in the last days/weeks of the deceased pope and in the first ones of the new pope. Furthermore, they examine the itinerars of the cardinals known to have served as papal legates. Using these method, Micheal Horn Studien zur Geschichte Papst Eugens III. (1145-1153), Verlag von Peter Land 1992, p. 40, 304, has concluded that 34 cardinals, Theodwin among them, were present in the Roman Curia at the time of the election of Eugene III in 1145. Exact itinerars of Theodwin during his legations in Germany, as far as I remember, have been analysed by J. Bachmann: Die papstlichen legaten in Deutschland und Skandinavien, Historische Studien, Berlin 1913, but unfortunetely I do not have an access to this work currently. For the election of September 1143 I can say that there is no sign of Theodwin's presence in the papal court between 18 May 1140 and 26 November 1143. According to Wilhelm Bernhardi, Konrad III., Bd. 2, Leipzig 1881, p. 335 note 28, Theodwin seems to have returned to Rome only after receiving the news about the death of Innocent II and the election of his successor because contemporary German chronicles registered his activity in Germany during the year 1143 and he had not been noted in the papal curia before 26 November 1143. Giving the distance between Germany and Rome, this would preclude his participation in the election of Celestine II.  For the vacancies in March 1144 and February 1145, on the contrary, we've got documentary evidence - subscriptions on the papal bulls - that Theodwin was present in curia around that time and, therefore, is likely to have participated in the elections.


 * 1151 as the year of Theodwin's death is given by the contemproary Pohlder Annales, while the day without giving a year appears in the necrology of Montecassino (cf. Brixius, Die Mitglieder..., p. 95). This corresponds with the account of John of Salisbury, which says that Theodwin died as legate in the Holy Land shortly after the end of Second Crusade. The year 1153, as far as I know, goes back to the late account of Ciacconius and is not supported by the contemporary sources. In any case, on 14 April 1150 Theodwin subscribed papal bull for the last time and we've got no evidence of his presence in the papal court after that date. The data about the subscriptions of the cardinals on the papal bulls can be found in Philipp Jaffé: Regesta pontificum Romanorum ab conditio Ecclesia ad annum post Christum natum MCXCVIII.


 * It must be added that the main source for the Miranda's website - Essai de liste générale des cardinaux, has been published in Annuaire Pontifical Catholique between 1925 and 1939 and for the period until 1198 relies almost completely on Ciacconius' work and on Francesco Cristofori's Cronotassi dei Cardinali de Santa Romana Chiesa (1888). Both these works are largely out-of-dated and modern scholars - authors of the prosopographies of the cardinals (e.g. J. M. Brixius, Barbara Zenker, Werner Maleczek, Agostino Paravicini Bagliani etc.) - use them with great caution. The best, most comprehensive academic sources on the College of Cardinals in the half of the 12th century are two dissertations: Johannes M. Brixius: Die Mitglieder des Kardinalskollegiums von 1130-1181, Berlin 1912; and Barbara Zenker: Die Mitglieder des Kardinalskollegoiums von 1130 bis 1159, Würzburg 1964 (BTW Zenker, p. 28, also says that Theodwin died in 1151). Comparing them to Essai and Ciacconius, they greatly reduced the number of the cardinals created during that period, eliminating those not attested in the contemporary sources or confused with other persons, as well as corrected many other biographical data of the cardinals. Salvador Miranda himself is an expert on the modern history of the College of Cardinals, he is not a medievalist and for the Middle Ages he simply depends on the sources he consults, referred above. CarlosPn (talk) 15:34, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks! That makes sense; those references seem to give a far more comprehensive account of his whereabouts (as much as that's possible given the context). Your edits explain the disparity well; nice work. Stalwart111 (talk) 23:16, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

(Stalwart111 (talk) 23:23, 13 July 2010 (UTC))