Talk:Thrash metal/Archive 3

Pantera
Pantera are not mentioned once in this article. It's an indictment of metal nerds that they don't even get a mention. Argue all you want about groove but they should be mentioned here at least once. Anybody with ears should know that, and why not read the first paragraph. This is a no-brainer. 72.201.99.37 (talk) 07:16, 26 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Fixed: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Thrash_metal&diff=501061504&oldid=500890016 BillyTFried (talk) 06:30, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Recommendation for band article merger
I have recommended a merge from Detente (band) to Fear of God (American band) because notability for the former article does not seem to be established (official website also conflates the two: http://www.fear-of-god.com/). Cheers!Jarhed (talk) 17:30, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Does "Thrash" = "Thrash metal"?
Can someone help with this discussion on the list of thrash metal bands? It's over whether a mention of a band being "thrash" means that the band is thrash metal. I'm busy with college and don't have much personal experience about the style. Reliable sources would be greatly appreciated.-- &iquest;3fam  ily6  contribs 00:09, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well when I was into it for about a decade in the 90s-early 00s, Thrash was Thrash Metal. --94.69.50.81 (talk) 12:07, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Intro
There are two things in the overview at the beginning of the article that make no sense. One being the big four "simultaneously creating the genre" When you go farther down the article and see how far apart the dates that the bands began on or released their first albums you can see that that's not what happened. As far as I know the big four were the best selling thrash metal bands of the 80's but I'm not sure. It is however immediately aparent from reading further down in the article that they didn't simultaneously create the genre. The other thing is "extensive use of the snare drum". I understand what is trying to be said here but all music that uses a drum kit makes extensive use of the snare drum. I'm changing that part to say it uses skank beats. There is no article for skank beat and I don't have a source at the moment but it makes more sense than "extensive use of the snare drum" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.41.9.31 (talk) 16:05, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
 * These issues have now been resolved.  SilkTork   ✔Tea time  13:56, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Number of major scenes
Under the Bay Area section it mentions that there are 5 major scenes, but only four are listed, and indeed, I can only think of those four. Anyone? Jasper420 03:43, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

"thrashcore"
An editor has been persistently attempting to add thrashcore to the infobox and prose of the article, completely unsourced, despite multiple requests to discuss this attempted change beforehand. This change has been attempted in the past by other editors and has always been reverted. A quick look at the thrashcore article shows "Thrashcore is often confused with crossover thrash and sometimes thrash metal" and "The "-core" suffix is necessary to distinguish it from the thrash metal scene"; these statements are well sourced and do not support the inclusion of the genre addition here. Any thoughts on the merits of the inclusion of thrashcore to this article? ChakaKongtalk 17:07, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the last phrase of the paragraph sums it up : "Still more confusingly, the term "thrashcore" is occasionally used by the music press to refer to thrash metal-inflected metalcore." I have to say that I too was more familiar with this use of the term. But it's clear that it should not be linked tu the punk subgenre. Perhaps pointing to metalcore ? zubrowka 74 17:26, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
 * My area of expertise is thrash metal and I don't claim to be knowledgeable about thrashcore at all; but everything I'm reading tells me that thrashcore is a form of hardcore punk and has little or nothing to do with heavy metal. ChakaKongtalk 19:29, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

New Wave of Thrash metal
In nowadays many bands are trying to give rebirth to that genre that was about to be forgotten. And that attempt is called "New Wave of Thrash metal". That attempt is know on the Internet by EVERYONE SINCE THE EARLY 2000'S. And it's written on every site of the internet, exept here! It's not right that it's not mentioned here! Everyone shoud know about this! That is why Some People are trying to mention it HERE, on Wikipedia. But YOU People are recklessly preventing that information to be mentioned and read by the viewers! AND THAT IS UNFORGIVABLE!!

I say that the New Wave of Thrash metal should be mentioned here. DayKey (talk) 12:19, 7 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Disagree. The "New wave" article you created does not meet notability guidelines and thus does not warrant a standalone article. It should have been left as a redirect. ChakaKongtalk 14:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The article is pretty skinny. Nothing that can't be mentioned in a small section on the Thrash article. Perhaps if you'd find more sources ? Magazines or such ? Work on this and maybe we'll waive the conspiracy that's been keeping NWoTM in the dark for so long. zubrowka 74 16:32, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Future discussion should take place here, as it pertains directly to that article and not this one. ChakaKongtalk 18:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

What's with the ALL BOLDED CAPS?!

London Thrash Scene, New Wave of Thrash Metal
I second the above poster's proposal to create an article for the New London Thrash Scene, including Evile et al.

There should also be a category for bands like Havok, Municipal Waste, Tantara, Lost Society, Gama Bomb, HeXen, Vektor, Bolt Thrower and others.

I suggest for it to be titled New Wave of American Thrash Metal. Their defining features include a comic like, cartoon-like futuristic cover style, and a classic crossover style between hardcore punk and heavy metal, but it is exceptionally faster than precursors from the Bay Area and 80's Thrash Metal.

A London Area Thrash Metal Scene article is also suggested.

AFOH 15:30, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Death and Thrash are often indistinguishable.
e.g. The heaviest songs of Slayer with the ligher songs of Death are virtually the same genre. --89.210.3.234 (talk) 15:24, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

no, they're not, they both belong firmly in each respective genre... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.210.97.178 (talk) 14:34, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Death metal is the use of growled lyrics and often lyrics to growled or screamed to understand. While thrash bands such as Exodus, Sepultra and Slayer incorporate shouting or screaming lyrics, they are not death metal like Vader. Thrash metal is like the father of Death metal. They are similar and to the average bub sound the same (screamo), they ARE NOT the same genre.

I find another distinctive feature of Death (aside from the vocal innovations, and lyric preoccupations...) which set it apart from the Thrash, Speed and Black metal of the time, was a novel preference for thin, metronomic, un-Rock-like drum sounds. Saegeas (talk) 22:00, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

New Wave of Thrash - Bands changing style
Shouldn't it be mentioned for modern popularity that many popular bands like Machine Head and Bullet For My Valentine are moving towards more of a Thrash style? Ganondox (talk) 18:23, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Bay Area Thrash
Slayer are listed as a member of the Bay Area thrash scene, but they are from L.A.

See first sentence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slayer — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.200.54.254 (talk) 16:41, 5 May 2015 (UTC)


 * If you read about Slayer on the Bay Area thrash article, it explains that although they did not originate from the area, they did take part in its scene by playing a lot of shows there etc. If you want, you can change the wording in this article to reflect the fact that they are not from the area.-- MA SHAUN IX 18:34, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

I did not see the Bay Area thrash article. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.200.54.254 (talk) 15:09, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

NWOBHM usage
From a readability standpoint, it might be helpful to people like myself who are not familiar with Thrash metal or it's related genres to put the acronym 'NWOBHM' in parentheses in the first section immediately after the first usage of the phrase 'New Wave of British Heavy Metal'. When the acronym showed up later in the article, I had no idea what it meant and had to backtrack to the beginning to figure it out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.130.253.101 (talk) 03:43, 11 February 2016 (UTC)


 * ✅ thank you.  Mlpearc  ( open channel ) 04:22, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

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Speed/Thrash
The Speed metal article mentions Thrash. Shouldn't the Thrash metal article at least mention Speed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.238.49.152 (talk) 03:29, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

I agree. I've always felt Speed and Thrash were closer than Death, and that Death was a later evolution of both. People mention Venom "Black Metal" album as formative for Thrash but I don't agree, it was in fact more Black metal: dirty, sludgy, sullen, evil. (Seems to me, Celtic Frost of that period would also be more aligned with Black than with Speed/Thrash or with Death.) Speed seems "tamer" than Thrash, on average, even if the tempos are on average faster? Though their periods and audiences were about the same. For me, Death seemed notable for the thin drum sounds, whereas Speed/Thrash/Black (of the 80's) preferred the more traditional rock drum sounds. Anyway, I don't really agree with a lot of the specific examples cited (at present) in this article. Accept? Perhaps influential on Speed ("Restless and Wild" album), but Thrash? Saegeas (talk) 21:54, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

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Possessed and thrash metal
This is my source,. The page’s about Necrophagia but mentions Possessed as one of the pioneering death metal bands. Sixty Minute Limit (talk) 16:19, 16 June 2018 (UTC)


 * Okay, that's a solid one, but just because they apparently started that way and shifted later doesn't mean they aren't thrash too. The sourcing for the band's page itself is quite weak, but I'm willing to wager coverage of their thrash style exists in sources. Now I suppose I can let this go because it does seem they were more important in death than thrash and they seem outside my interest area, but I hope we can pursue this further.  danny music editor  oops 03:42, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

They actually didn’t move to thrash metal, they stayed more or less consistent. They were the first death metal band, using death growls and heavier riffs (wich were heavier than Death’s riffs from 1990 to 2001). But with their new 2018 TBA album, they might have a more thrash metal driven sound. Sixty Minute Limit (talk) 00:32, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

WP:REDFLAG
The article stated: ''Four American bands—Anthrax, Megadeth, Metallica, and Slayer—are credited with pioneering and popularizing the genre, and they have come to be called the "Big Four of Thrash". The Clash of the Titans tour (1990–1991), which featured Megadeth, Slayer, and Anthrax, is considered the genre's pinnacle, after which thrash metal saw a decline in popularity throughout the decade. Thrash metal has seen a resurgence in recent times, with many of the older bands returning to their roots with their new releases. A new generation of thrash metal bands emerged in the early 2000s, drawing lyrical and visual inspiration from the older groups.''

Step by step: "they are credited" - weasel words. Who is crediting them, and are they right? Then, they are credited with pioneering, but the pioneers of Thrash form a much longer list and the four are not exactly at the beginning. As for popularising, this is pretty much an Americo-centric view of Thrash. The clash of titans is considered - weaseling again - to be the genre's pinnacle. Who says so, and why are they right? Lastly, Thrash did not decline after that unless you name specific cultures.

Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. Live up to it. -- Zz (talk) 20:23, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

- Agree. “has been acknowledged, is hailed, is often cited, has been cited…” The overwhelming use of passive voice makes this article a hard read. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.125.68.34 (talk) 16:50, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Heavy hardcore
Hi, in response to your recent revert of my addition of heavy hardcore to the derivatives section of the infobox, I'd like to clarify that I know you reasoned your removal of the given source because you couldn't access it. I'm not sure why that may be but this Wayback Machine archive may allow you to access it, if not it refers to "tough guy hardcore" which is a source synonym for heavy hardcore as having "combined circle pits and gang vocals with elements of Metallica-type thrash". This information has also been referenced on the heavy hardcore page itself since its creation. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding you may have had. Issan Sumisu (talk) 21:00, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The discussion is happening here. Your edit was reverted because the cited source doesn't say what you claim it says. SolarFlash<sup style="color:#03F">Discussion 21:51, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * You stated yourself that the discussion of this topic should be on this talk page, the edit is applicable to this page, so it's best for it to be discussed here. And, what do you mean by "the cited source doesn't say what you claim it says", I provided a direct quote from it, to substantiate it. Issan Sumisu (talk) 22:00, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
 * You have been leaving messages on my user page (as opposed to my talk page where discussion is intended). Since you initiated the discussion there instead of here, the discussion continued there and not here. SolarFlash<sup style="color:#03F">Discussion 22:05, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

TheStrober
Quite frankly I dont think you guys are giving that fella enough credit, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN-ZOqVIKjA&ab_channel=TheStrober Just listen and see if it qualifies as thrash. The only reason you are reverting the edits is because it (incredulously) isnt as famous as Metallica) --2A02:C7F:901F:2A00:DD91:2E26:C3E5:A7F9 (talk) 17:43, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

You are literally proving the chorus in his song correct --2A02:C7F:901F:2A00:DD91:2E26:C3E5:A7F9 (talk) 17:43, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

We Are Not Your Puppet's link is here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Inf-XNJs5to&ab_channel=TheStrober lets show Boris Johnson what happens to jealous nutcases like him. --MR Messager (talk) 16:55, 5 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Please find multiple independent reliable sources that support your claim. "Go and watch this Youtube video" isn't going to cut it. Wisdom89 ♦talk 16:57, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Thrash Was A Philosophical Reaction?
This sentence in the intro I think misinforms rather than anything else.

"Philosophically, thrash metal developed as a backlash against both the conservatism of the Reagan era[6] and the much more moderate, pop-influenced and widely accessible heavy metal subgenre of glam metal which also developed concurrently in the 1980s.[7]"

Thrash was not a "backlash", philosophically or otherwise. Besides conflating, and confusing, the two concepts of "philosophical" and "political", the sentence is just plain factually wrong. In the 80s, 90s, and later, people who hate Thrash, or simply don't understand it, accused it of being fascist to the point of Nazi racism. That's totally untrue, of course, though lots of Metal bands have used the same kind of imagery that fascist political parties did -- Celtic symbols, runes, Norse Gods, monsters, the examples are so numerous as to stretch the capacity of article itself, let alone this post.

One of the basic aspects of Thrash was taking Metal in a heavier direction, and merging in some respects with Hardcore Punk with speed being the major element. The latter seemed to be influenced in some ways by Metal in the reverse direction, in particular by learning how to play their instruments. Punks and Metalheads really didn't like each other very much in the late 70s, but the one band they agreed on was Motorhead, and the Thrash boys took a good deal from there. Lemmy from Motorhead used the Iron Cross all the time, liked American Civil War stuff, including the Confederate rebel flag, war themes, etc. These are not exactly favorites of liberal political types. Still, some left-wing political nonsense followed with the Punks, but Thrash does not seem to be distinctly political in any conventional sense. If anything it's more a right wing phenomenon "philosophically" than left-wing political, weak-kneed, anti-American junk. Megadeth has in its very name a reference to nuclear war, and has a good deal of political pessimism about the "Countdown to Extinction" and all that, so there are counter examples. Most Thrash wasn't of that kind -- it was rebellious and angry, but that's a pretty generic strain in Rock as a general matter. Thrash just took it a step further, and decidedly distinguished itself from the Glam Metal that came out of David Lee Roth, Slade, and Kiss (in some of its weird disco-metal moments). It wasn't a "reaction" to Glam, they just hated the "hair bands" as a kind of betrayal of what Metal was supposed to be.

Mentioning the whole "philosophical" thing is a bad idea since I don't think there was one that unifies this form of Metal, certainly not in a political sense. People didn't even know what to call "Thrash" in the early 1980s. The terms "power", "thrash", and "speed" were used interchangeably until after the fact, when writers looking back started categorizing things, and also found that Death Metal, Black Metal had been there all along too, just without being conscious of the genre in which they were working. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sychonic (talk • contribs) 08:29, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 October 2021
Under the "Mid-1980s" subsection, fix the ordering of Overkill and Megadeth's albums to be in respective order. Either have the albums swap places or have the artists swap places with each other. Mega2447 (talk) 01:57, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
 * ❌., could you be more specific as to which sentences/phrases should be swapped? ◢ <i style="background-color:#F7E3F7; color:#960596"> Ganbaruby! </i>  (talk) 06:01, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Fixed it. Thanks for pointing that out. MetalDiablo666 (talk) 14:02, 3 October 2021 (UTC)