Talk:Tiritiri Matangi Island

Map needed
We need a map showing where the island is, as well as an aerial shot of the island and perhaps a map of it (e.g. walking tracks). A commons category would be a good idea, since we only have so much room here. Richard001 (talk) 00:48, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge
Should Tiritiri Matangi Lighthouse be merged into this article? Blacksmith (talk) 05:42, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I really don't think there is any need to merge these articles. One is about a lighthouse, the other one is about an island, and notably on the ecological restoration of it. These two subjects have nothing in common. Dick Bos (talk) 05:54, 29 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I also oppose it. The lighthouse is quite famous on its own, with several outstanding features. I will remove the merge tag, as there clearly is no consensus to merge. Ingolfson (talk) 05:50, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Bird names
There has been some back-and-forth over whether to give both English and Māori names in the list of bird species introduced to the island. The original list was "kākāriki, North Island saddleback, brown teal, whitehead, takahē, little spotted kiwi, stitchbird, North Island kōkako, fernbird, tomtit, and rifleman." Generally the approach is to use the name of the article linked to, which should be the name most commonly used in New Zealand English, whether that's a Māori loanword or an English name. Note that usage is changing all the time, invariably towards replacing English names with Māori, and more recently to spelling names in New Zealand English with macrons, so we should anticipate updating this article as the bird articles it links to are renamed. Stitchbirds are probably more commonly referred to as hihi these days; otherwise that list looks reasonable to me. —Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 07:38, 4 May 2020 (UTC)


 * There are several reasons why the list of bird names should include either both māori names and english common names. Most people working with new zealand native birds will use these names interchangeably. In New Zealand, the trend is clearly towards preferring māori names over english common names. A list of names with both names serves both the local bird research communities, and overseas birders using out of date books.


 * A list which uses only māori names is problematic for people who are either using old resources, but that list and *only* that list is internally consistent. A list using 'english common names' will inevitably have to include māori names, for the simple reason that several of the species *do not have* english common names, or those names have fallen out of usage.
 * At which point, the inherent cultural bias is demonstrated.


 * The list, as it has stood on the page for *over 5 years* was the most useful list for readers of the page, who will have heard one, or other, or both common names.


 * The 'new' list is less useful for all concerned. Should one follow blindly an approach which is incorrect simply because the person who created a wikipedia page first used one of several alternate names? This makes little sense.


 * I feel that it is a retrograde step to have removed information for, apparently, someone's idea of a neat list.


 * As is pointed out, the names of the pages themselves are gradually changing to reflect current usage, so removing the maori names from this list is just creating extra work later.


 * The original list, or at least the list which has been on the page for at least 5 years without controversy was:

kākāriki / red crowned parakeet, tīeke / North Island saddleback, pāteke / brown teal, pōpokotea / whitehead, takahē, little spotted kiwi, hihi / stitchbird, North Island kōkako, mātātā / fernbird, miromiro / North Island tomtit and tītipounamu / rifleman.


 * For most of these birds, the maori name is either now predominant or easily recognisable among bird enthusiasts and young people who have learned the māori name at school.

Dinobass (talk) 11:47, 4 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I think we should have both names, as signs on the island use a mixture of English and Maori names, as the first name on the sign. I was on Tiritiri Matangi in December. The large sign at the start of the "Wattle Valley Walk" has "Stitchbird Notiomystis cinta Hihi", but further on same the track the "Birds at the Water Trough" sign has "Hihi Stitchbird Notiomystis cinta". AlasdairW (talk) 22:24, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Good points. Here's an option. Rather than link to just a single name, how about "article title (alternate name, Latinus namus)", so the article's as useful as possible? It's not like space is at a premium here, as the article's pretty short! This would look like: red-crowned parakeet (kākāriki, Cyanoramphus novaezelandiae). That also lets us link to the exact species of kākāriki on Tiritiri, as the Te Reo name doesn't distinguish between them. If we think stitchbirds are now more commonly known as hihi in reliable NZ sources, then the article should be renamed because this affects multiple pages. The place to have that conversation is at Talk:Stitchbird. See the related discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (New Zealand) for more on how we're using reliable sources in NZ English to establish Te Reo loanword usage. —Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 23:33, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Update: I just went and did it. —Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 23:18, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Some of the signs on the island are now very old. As they are replaced, or new signs are added, they will use both names with the māori names first as a matter of policy, except where the english common name is no longer used (or never existed). The birds at the water trough sign is one of the most recent signs. This reflects both a general trend in the way we are relating to bird names - for example most people who go through the school system now will learn the māori name first, and also the way organisations like Supporters of Tiritiri Matangi and the Department of Conservation are handling this issue. There is value in having both names in many cases. There are many cases where it is obvious that the english common name is no longer used (kea, kākā, kiwi, Tūī etc). However, for birds where both names are still commonly used, it is valuable to do so. Dinobass (talk) 23:41, 4 May 2020 (UTC)