Talk:Trait du Nord

Comment
Hello, name of the breed is not "Trait Du Nord" but "Trait du Nord". See in french featured article, thanks ;) --Tsaag Valren (talk) 17:08, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * After checking several sources, it looks like you are correct, and I have moved the article accordingly. Dana boomer (talk) 01:07, 21 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks : someone can translate the french article ? I've work hard on it. Tsaag Valren (talk) 16:51, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * No one here speaks French. However, if you run it through Google language and post the resulting text in YOUR user space (make a sandbox ) and then let us know it's up, we might be able to help you out some.  (I've done this with some German articles...)  Click on this link to create it:  User:Tsaag Valren/Sandbox ) it may be enough translated that we can make sense out of the rest of it with a few questions to you when illogical stuff appears (Google isn't much of a translation tool, and does too poor a job to use directly into a wiki article, but it is a start for situations where neither editor is quite fluent enough in the other language to translate directly...)   Montanabw (talk) 23:24, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It's done, thanks to you. Euuuh, I need to do "edit the page" to see the resulting text from google translate, I don't know why. --Tsaag Valren (talk) 21:47, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I've fixed the ref tags enough that the text is visible. The references and formatting need a lot more cleanup, though. Google translations are notoriously bad, so the prose probably needs some work. I think that once everything is cleaned up, though, it can be a decent article to move over into the mainspace. Dana boomer (talk) 01:59, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks ! English "modèles" are not the same than in french, so I don't know how to do a decent article --Tsaag Valren (talk) 12:29, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Tsaag, I've been working on the formatting of the article over the past week. It's somewhat better now, at least no big red reference error templates! If you would mind taking a look through the sandbox to make sure that the information still matches the sources, it would be great. Also, I've marked a few sources that deadlinked for me - if you could find new urls it would be fantastic! A few sources looked unreliable to me on first glace - English WP articles shouldn't usually be sourced to blogs, but this rule is modified when the blogs are written by an expert. Since my French skills are nonexistant, I really can't determine whether the blog used multiple times in the article is written by an expert or just an amateur breed enthusiast. Equine Kingdom is considered unreliable here. I would love to take this article to Good article and possibly featured article status, as I believe we have the information to work with, but definitely need your help to make sure I'm not completely misrepresenting the French sources! Dana boomer (talk) 02:29, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, the blog is from "the french association for saving the Trait du Nord" that's why i've quoted it. There's a press review where this blog is quoted too : http://sauvonsletraitdunord.blog4ever.com/blog/lire-article-148064-502339-la_presse_parle_de_nous.html. Thanks and sorry for my bad english ! --Tsaag Valren (talk) 19:40, 5 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Another precision, this is a very rare breed, near extinction (that's why i've write the french article), so there's very few people who write about Trait du Nord, and very few articles in national press --Tsaag Valren (talk) 20:26, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

(undent) Ok. Thanks for the quick response and the link to the press page. I'm going to ask a person who is more of an expert than me about the reliability of this source, to see if it's OK to be used here on EN WP. Dana boomer (talk) 21:04, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Progress update
Well, I've finished adding in the information from the sandbox, for now. I haven't added information that was sourced to unreliable sources (i.e. the blog and equinekingdom) or dead links. There were a couple of deadlinks (tagged in the sandbox) that looked to be reliable sources - if working URLs can be found for these, we can add the information into this article. There are several things that still need to be done, however -


 * I need to expand the lead. I will try to get to this later today or this weekend; Monday at the latest.
 * Lots and lots of copyediting and rearranging. I know that the article is quite choppy and not always grammatical.
 * Tsaag, could you please go through and check to see if I have misrepresented any of the sources? With removing some of the references (especially the blog), I wasn't always sure what was sourced to each reference. Also, if you could find working URLs for the deadlinking refs, that would be great!

Feel free to toss in any other comments. This is mainly just a rough draft, but I see the potential to go at least to GA and possibly FA at some point in the future. Thanks! Dana boomer (talk) 17:09, 12 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Sometimes I have had success using Google's cached links (click the "cache" button in Google). Not sure how it meets WP:V, but at least is a live link. By the way, may want to look at the stuff Tsaag added that I tossed, may have had something substantive in there, but it was so weirdly formatted and there were some odd capitalization changes, so I just tossed the whole thing wholesale pending someone with time to review... Give me a shout when you think you are ready to go to GA and I'll do a quick copyedit or something if needed. Otherwise, I'm just enjoying the process.  (FYI, still haven't seen my article go up for GA review yet, seems to be a backlog...)  Montanabw (talk) 22:22, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, there's a huge backlog at GAN, so it can sometimes take quite a while (several weeks) before an article is reviewed, unless you get lucky. I usually just sit back and work on another article in the meantime :) Google catches are OK, but they go dead after a while, so you're basically adding a link that you know will become unverifiable soon. I've never had them questioned at GAN, but I have at FAC, and so I'd just prefer to either keep the info out or get a solid ref the first time, rather than fussing with it later. I'll take a look through Tsaag's changes in a bit - need to go pick some peaches first (yum!). Dana boomer (talk) 23:07, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Our cherry trees don't yet produce enough cherries to feed both us and the birds! Had a nice little crop, but the robins are all now lolling around on the lawn, almost too fat to fly!   Montanabw (talk) 18:10, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Re-read and searching for new sources
Hello, I've re-read the article, and here's things I've noted if you can understand me : "They are found in many solid colors" is true, but I think that 95% of all horses are bay or roan in color. Other colors are really unusual. "Draft horse of Hainaut" is not exactly the translation of french "Gros trait du Hainaut". "Gros" mean something like "big" or "great" or "fat", etc...) "Although some breeds of draft horses have declined in weight in modern times, the Trait du Nord has remained an impressive size" is a translation from the french with "gabarit impressionnant". But I think that "size" is not exactly the same that "gabarit", who mean that the horses are tall and heavy. "size" is it for the height too, or not ? For the "Breed characteristics", there's some words that I don't understand (too technical for me !) but I think it's good. For the photo or the mining horse, It's not sure to be a Trait du Nord. I just know that photo come from the breeding region of the Trait du Nord, around 1910, like this one too : . But there was no "identification" for the horse.

For source, there's an official website, but it was created after I've write the french article. It's here : http://www.le-cheval-trait-du-nord.fr/ They ave reused mainly the sources from the FR wp article, but there's a thing they say :

"Ce cheval est un représentant vivant de nos traditions, telles l'utilisation du collier flamand avec le menage au cordeau." => That horse is a living representative of our traditions, such as the use of the necklace with the Flemish household in cord" from google translate. I thing it's not a good translation, it's about the draft horse material, flemish horsecollar and the "guide", there's just 1 "guide".... I think you'll understand with the photos => http://www.le-cheval-trait-du-nord.fr/tradition-cordeau.php in the hand of the horse driver theres just one rein (but rein is not the good word). I've see some sources in google books but I haven't books in english and I can't read it. Perhaps you have some ? http://www.google.com/search?tbs=bks%3A1&tbo=1&hl=fr&q=Horse+Trait+du+Nord& you can see this one too : http://www.google.com/search?hl=fr&tbo=1&tbs=bks%3A1&q=Northern+ardennais+horse+Nord&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=btnG=Chercher+des+livres . There's nothing with Google scholar => http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=fr&q=cheval+Trait+du+Nord&btnG=Rechercher&lr=&as_ylo=&as_vis=0. I hope this message will be helpful ! --Tsaag Valren (talk) 17:10, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for your comments! I've tweaked the issues you brought up in the first paragraph, can you please see if I've actually fixed them according to what you wanted? I've looked at the new website and it looks really nice. I've added in some information, especially in the Uses and Naming sections, so see what you think. I've added a brief description of the special collar and guiding system into the Uses section, although this seems to be one of the things that Google Translate has the hardest time with.
 * I'm not able to access any of the books through Google that you linked to - I think there are different copyright issues between Europe and the US. I'll do some more searching on the US version of Google books to see if I can find anything that is accessible. None of the books on my bookshelves or my library's bookshelves have anything useful to add, so not much help there, I'm afraid. Thanks again for your help, I think the article is really coming along. Dana boomer (talk) 15:14, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks to you too (reading my horrible english must be annoying, no ?). Introduction is better now in my opinion, and traduction from the website looks good too. For the books, It seems that copyright is different in France (70 years after die of the author) and in the US (It is 90 years in my memory). But on your project it is possible somebody have these books at his/her home ? --Tsaag Valren (talk) 17:10, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Translation from french, update 2012
I will try to translate myself (in bad english, but It's a good training), some parts of the fr. article, if you can read me, haha, it's not earned!


 * Ardennes horse, flemish draft (?), Belgian, Dutch draft, Trait du Nord and Auxois horse come from a same "rameau" (translation proposed is "branch") of breeds, due to similar coat colors (bay or bay roan with pangaré) and similar selection for draft work. Until very recently, these races were not differentiated, and frequently cross each other. Contrary to widespread popular opinion, the Ardennes horses and Trait du Nord horses are not the direct descendants of Solutré horses, that would migrated. Two to three horse subspecies have been found at the site of Solutré, and there is no evidence that they migrated to the Flemish plains or Ardennes Amélie Tsaag Valren (in french), Comprendre le rameau ardenno-flamand [understand the Ardennes-flemish branch (?)] in Cheval Savoir, april 2012, url = http://www.cheval-savoir.com/896-comprendre-rameau-ardenno-flamand ] < /ref >.
 * Update about fr:Cheval de Solutré (Solutré horse) : The term "Solutré horse" refers to the bones of prehistoric horses found near the Rock of Solutré in the late nineteenth century. This discovery is causing an hypothesis now widely questioned, that Paleolithic hunters guided herds of wild horses up the rock to rush into the void and kill them. More recent research attributed the bones of horses found in Solutré to sub-species close to the modern horse : Equus caballus germanicus, Equus caballus gallicus and Equus caballus arcelini. From a scientific point of view, the horse Solutré is no longer considered as distinct species.


 * The Solutré horse is still yet considered as the ancestor of modern french horse breeds according to popular belief, including the Camargue horse, the Ardennes horse, etc. --Tsaag Valren (talk) 06:09, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I think I have worked this in to the first paragraph of the History section. I'm really not sure what is meant by "Flemish draft", as there are quite a few different draft breeds that came from that area, and none (as far as I know) that in English are referred to as the Flemish draft. Dana boomer (talk) 17:52, 8 May 2012 (UTC)


 * A conservation plan for the breed was set up in 2010, to effect until 2014, in order to double the births http://elus-npdc.eelv.fr/2011/08/11/la-region-le-boulonnais-le-trait-du-nord/ : La Région, le Boulonnais, le Trait du Nord, 11 aout 2011, by Élus du conseil régional du Nord-Pas-de-Calais / Europe écologie les Verts .
 * Added to the Breed preservation section. Dana boomer (talk) 17:52, 8 May 2012 (UTC)


 * This breed is rarely exported abroad. Twenty horses a year go to Italy, and especially to Belgium and Germany. They are searched for work in forest areas, and the traditional brewery. German are known to pick up each year in France, some carriage horses (two, four or six) with similar coat colors for brewery chariots. Some exports of horses also concern Sicily and Guadeloupe, but are very rares Article : Nathalie Pilley-Mirande, Les traits français dans le monde (The French draft horses in the world) in Cheval magazine (Horse magazine), issue 371, October 2002, p. 62-65 .
 * Added to the last paragraph of the 1900s section. Dana boomer (talk) 17:52, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

With this I think it will be good for FA. This breed is very rare and there's very few works about. --Tsaag Valren (talk) 22:20, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I think I have addressed everything above, but if you could take a look and make sure I didn't mess anything up, it would be much appreciated. On the English WP, each editor can only have one article each at peer review and featured article candidacy, and I already have one at each at the moment. As soon as those run through the processes, however, I will put this article up for peer review and then probably featured article status sometime this summer, depending on my schedule. Thank you very much for your help on this (it's basically all your work, I just translated!), and if you have any other comments, or if I've screwed up any sources too badly, please let me know. Dana boomer (talk) 17:52, 8 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Fascinating info. I'm mostly just lurking on this one, but fun to learn about these rare breeds!   Montanabw (talk) 03:12, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Pics from salon de l'agriculture
Perhaps the infobox photo is not the better, because trait du Nord is a draft not a saddle breed. So, we have other possible choices here :

--Tsaag Valren (talk) 22:20, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Awesome! I've switched out the previous lead image for the second image above - despite the busy background, I think it is a better photo, since the horse is standing still. I've also added the image of the mare's head lower down in the article. I'll probably work on the above comments tomorrow morning - it's starting to get late tonight. Dana boomer (talk) 01:27, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you, it's much better ! --Tsaag Valren (talk) 06:02, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

French?
The breed is from Hainaut coming from Flemish breeds, so why is this classified as a French breed here> The mining sreas in Northern France where it is/was common are mostly in French Flanders. The breed is known as a Hainaut breed to horse breeders and Hainaut is in Belgium. Therefore I think it should be classified as a Belgian breed. Jorgenpfhartogs (talk) 14:34, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Hello. I've wrotten a study quoted as a source in this article. It depends if you considers the genetic part of the horse, or the administrative one. For genetics, Ardennes, Belgian draft and Trait du Nord are the same breed (juste with differents names depending or "in which country you are"). There's a stud-book named Trait du Nord only in France. --Tsaag Valren (talk) 14:56, 8 February 2015 (UTC)


 * There are adequate differences in bloodlines and body type to distinguish this horse from the Belgian/Ardennes and so on. Those breeds have their own articles.   Montanabw (talk)  23:32, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
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