Talk:Trolleybuses in Rimini

Photos needed
Photos required: at least one good image of a Van Hool AG300T in Rimini. Bahnfrend (talk) 15:18, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Article now has photos of the AG300T vehicles and also the ExquiCity 18T vehicles acquired more recently for the Metromare. SJ Morg (talk) 09:31, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 23 June 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. To my understanding, the discussion has amicably concluded with improvements that do not involve a page move. Let me know if I am mistaken and there was more to discuss here. (non-admin closure) SilverLocust (talk) 01:49, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

Trolleybuses in Rimini → Rimini–Riccione route 11 trolleybus – This move would distinguish better the route 11 trolleybus from the newer Metromare, which has a separate article on Wikipedia that I have considerably expanded over the last few weeks. Grouping the two trolleybus systems onto the same article, with the route 11 trolleybus as the main focus of this article, doesn't make much sense in my view, given that Metromare functions as a segregated trolleybus rapid transit line effectively in isolation from the route 11 trolleybus rather than as part of a network, which may be implicit in the current article name.

An alternative could be to keep Trolleybuses in Rimini as a summary/quasi-disambiguation page, with a separate Rimini–Riccione route 11 trolleybus article containing most of the content currently in this article, effectively spinning-off the content on the route 11 trolleybus. IgnatiusofLondon (talk) 19:30, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
 * IgnatiusofLondon (talk) 19:33, 23 June 2023 (UTC)


 * If you're going to make any changes at all (and I'm not sure whether any changes are really necessary) I prefer your alternative suggestion. The article in its present form covers both of the present lines, and also the history of the original system, which previously included other now closed lines. A separate Rimini–Riccione route 11 trolleybus article could be created; it would be roughly equivalent to Fribourg–Farvagny trolleybus system, which is about just one (now closed) interurban trolleybus line. Bahnfrend (talk) 05:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC)


 * My compliments on your major expansion of the Metromare article, which I was very surprised to see, given that most transit articles on WP are short and/or very poorly referenced. However, I strongly oppose this move, as well as the alternative you propose, for several reasons. While it's true that the Metromare is a very distinctive type of route, your argument that it is effectively part of a different system (or "network") falls flat. Not only are both routes/lines based in Rimini, but both are operated by the same transit agency/company, Start Romagna, and I doubt very much that anyone from Start would agree with your characterization of the Metromare as being separate from its other Rimini routes, as opposed to being one – albeit arguably the highest-profile one – route within their network. More importantly, "Trolleybuses in [city]" is the standard title format for around 170 articles on Wikipedia (a listing of which can be found most easily at Category:Trolleybus systems by city and Category:Defunct trolleybus systems by city), with very few exceptions. Even in other cities that had more than one trolleybus operator concurrently, WP has just one general "Trolleybuses in ...." article covering both – see Trolleybuses in São Paulo and Trolleybuses in Naples for modern instances. The two Rimini routes are both operated by a single company (with common fares, website, schedule info., etc.), as mentioned. Regarding Bahnfrend's example, not only was that early Fribourg line operated by a different company but there was also a gap of several years between the two trolleybus systems. The main article, Trolleybuses in Fribourg, covers all routes of the current system as well as mentioning the predecessor system of 1912–1932.


 * Although your alternative proposal to keep Trolleybuses in Rimini where it is would allow the current, standardized, title to remain in use, I see no good reason to create a separate article just for route 11. It's true that the vast majority of the content in the (newly greatly expanded) "Trolleybuses in Rimini" article is about route 11, simply because it has existed for 84 years whereas the Metromare has only been running for 3½ years with motorbuses and 1½ years with trolleybuses, but that imbalance is not a strong argument for splitting route 11 off as a separate article. Of all of the 170+ trolleybus systems (existing and former) that so far have received standalone articles on Wikipedia, almost none have standalone articles on any individual routes, because single bus routes are seldom considered sufficiently notable for a standalone article on WP. I agree that the Metromare, being a semi-BRT route ("semi" in my view only because of its relatively poor headways), is worthy of its own article on Wikipedia, but it is now mentioned in the lead of the "Trolleybuses in Rimini" Wikipedia article, and in the infobox, and several times within the body of the article. The fact remains that the Metromare is a "trolleybus route in Rimini", so it falls within the scope of the general article, and I see no compelling reason to slash the "Trolleybuses in Rimini" article down to a short overview and move most of its content into an article solely about route 11 – just for the purpose of raising up the Metromare article's profile? – SJ Morg (talk) 09:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, @SJ Morg, for your thoughtful and considered comments. Just to clarify, my proposals come not from raising the profile of the Metromare article but out of concern that they are functionally (and formally) separate systems. Metromare is a segregated trolleybus rapid transit line; route 11 runs entirely on road. On START Romagna's website, route 11 is treated and branded no differently from other non-trolleybus bus routes, whereas Metromare is given a separate page (and of course, its own branding). (The network map hasn't been updated since 2017, so it doesn't include Metromare, but nothing distinguishes route 11 from other bus lines.) I've summarised some local commentary on the two lines in Metromare, where the two lines are mostly discussed in competition rather than as part of a unified network, including by the municipal councillor for transport. But I recognise that "Trolleybuses in..." is a standard title format, and there is also a case for route 11 and Metromare being together given that ultimately, yes, both are trolleybus lines in Rimini. On reflection, my alternative suggestion seems superior as a result, but, as you point out, the issue is then whether there is enough to justify a separate article for the route 11 trolleybus, though your edits and additional sources might help build a case for this. (Metromare qualifies more easily for a separate article as a significant public works project, also with plans to expand into other municipalities and provinces.) Another alternative would be to reorganise this article (and my compliments on your expansion) to split more carefully between Metromare and route 11 (for example, as appropriate, under each section), but I think this is something that your edits are already working towards. In expanding the Metromare article, I've come across some sources on route 11's history, which I'll add once the bulk of your expansion is complete :)) IgnatiusofLondon (talk) 13:33, 24 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I, too, appreciate your thoughtful reply. (FYI, I have visited Rimini a few times and I rode on the Metromare line last year, so I know firsthand how different it is from line 11 – and, BTW, I will probably upload a couple of photos of trolleybuses on the Metromare when I have time, as Commons thus far has none, although I wondering whether you, too, have photos you may be uploading?)
 * Different understandings of terminology may be a key part of the issue here. Speaking as a long-time transport enthusiast and reader of many transport magazines and books with trolleybus content, I can say that "trolleybus system" is the most common English-language term (both in British and American English) used for collectively referring to all trolleybus routes in a given metropolitan area, even though the trolleybus routes are always just a portion of a given city's public transport system. So, for example, Wikipedians who are familiar with and interested in trolleybuses would say that Trolleybuses in Vancouver is the Wikipedia article about the "Vancouver trolleybus system", but there is nothing that is formally, officially known as the latter because Vancouver's transit agency also operates many routes served by other types of buses, and that is the case in all other cities that have trolleybus routes. Likewise, there is no entity that is officially known as (the Italian-language form of:) "Rimini trolleybus system", but transport enthusiasts would say that any trolleybus route based in Rimini falls within that unofficial-but-common name. Metromare is absolutely not formally a "separate system" from route 11, because there is no formal definition of what consitutes a "system" (within a transport context), while virtually all existing content on WP pertaining to urban trolleybus service has long considered all trolleybus routes in a given city to be part of a single "trolleybus system", per the common usage of that term in transport magazines and books.


 * As I wrote last time, I agree completely that the Metromare (involving a lot of construction of new infrastructure, being a segregated busway, etc.) warrants its own article, but I still feel that splitting route 11 into its own article would be at odds with how other "trolleybus systems" are covered on Wikipedia. I remain opposed to your alternative proposal to create a separate article for route 11, given that route 11 and the Metromare are widely both considered to be part of the (descriptive but unofficial name) "Rimini trolleybus system" by transport enthusiasts. I realize that WP content should not be dictated by the preferences of enthusiasts, but it's more that I am not aware of a single other example on Wikipedia (of 170+ cases) of cities with trolleybuses in which the article division is like that of your proposal, so such treatment would be very non-standard on WP within this narrow subject area. I'm not sure how I feel about your more recent proposal to "reorganise [the "Trolleybuses in Rimini"] article to split more carefully between Metromare and route 11". Readers looking for separate details on the Metromare can already find them in that article (particularly given your major expansion), whereas splitting the route 11 and (much more limited) Metromare content in the "Trolleybuses in Rimini" article into separate sections would deprive readers interested specifically in trolleybuses or electric transport from being able to the see developments of both trolleybus routes in a single chronology. And at the risk of belaboring the point, I don't believe the two routes should be considered separate systems within the subject of "Trolleybuses in Rimini" – only separate if classified by BRT and non-BRT lines, rather than by whether they use trolleybuses. The two lines even use a single depot (maintenance facility), as is now noted in the article.
 * As to your reference to my potential future editing, it may disappoint you to learn that I was not planning to do any additional significant expansion of this article, as I have very little time for WP editing nowadays. Expanding the "Trolleybuses in Rimini" article and working in a few details about the TRC/Metromare project had been on my editing to-do list for more than three years, and it's purely a coincidence that it reached the top of the list shortly after your major (and welcome) Metromare expansion. Indeed, I had anticipated needing to do a little clean-up and expansion of the latter after finishing the other article's expansion, because the Metromare article had been much shorter (and with excessive detail for each stop) than it is now, until only a little more than two weeks ago! You spared me from having to do that, but I doubt that I'll be able to justify spending much more time on the "Trolleybuses in Rimini" article (except maybe to add a few photos, incl. of the Metromare) in the foreseeable future.
 * I would be interested to hear from User:Bahnfrend and/or others if they have an opinion on this discussion. – SJ Morg (talk) 08:32, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, @SJ Morg - with your subsequent edits now, the only changes to this article I would have in mind would be to create a separate subheading for the Metromare's construction and launch in the History section, which is now easily achieved by moving one or two sentences with effectively no loss of chronology, and possibly a slightly expanded lead section. I didn't realise that the two lines shared the same depot! As you might have suspected, I approach these articles not as a transport enthusiast, so I'm grateful for your very helpful clarifications and insight here. It would be extremely helpful to have those updated photos - I don't have any myself, unfortunately, and it's frustrating that the only Metromare photos on the Commons are from the provisional launch without the trolleybuses! IgnatiusofLondon (talk) 12:40, 25 June 2023 (UTC)
 * My earlier post was only my initial thoughts. I have now read and agree with SJ Morg's posts. I've been to Rimini only once, and only for the purpose of visiting nearby San Marino, and although I'm a trolleybus fan and have photographed a few of them from time to time, I'm not sure I've ever ridden on one (they stopped running in my very isolated home city when I was three years old). Bahnfrend (talk) 07:44, 26 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you, IgnatiusofLondon. That sounds fine to me. And thanks also to Bahnfrend for the additional comment. And now that I know Ignatius has no Metromare photos to upload, I'll definitely proceed (as I'd planned) to choose and upload a few of mine, though it might take me a few days to find the time. SJ Morg (talk) 07:55, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Note on historical sources
One of the sources I have just added to the article is a self-published source. WP:SELFPUBLISH notes: Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications. The credentials of the author of this source, Roberto Renzi, are detailed here in an article published by a local news site and historical chronicle (also used as a source in this article). According to that article, Renzi was formerly employed by the transportation services, and the latter source implies that he has published a book on the topic. I believe that this renders the self-published source sufficiently reliable for inclusion in the article. The source discusses the trolleybus line during its launch and the Second World War, including the Riccione reconfiguration around Piazzale dei Giardini. I couldn't find some aspects of this discussed in other reliable sources online (given the matter, I do not think this is unexpected/unusual), but of course, if anyone has access to the books referenced in the article, that would be an ideal source replacement. IgnatiusofLondon (talk) 22:31, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I have heard Mr. Renzi's name from friends in Italy, and for some time it has been my understanding that he is considered an authority on Rimini's trolleybus system. I was not aware that he had written a book on the subject (in 2021), but I found this listing at Google Books.  I agree that there appears to be sufficient evidence to support the position that the self-published source cited can be considered reliable under the WP guideline. SJ Morg (talk) 09:02, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The same note now applies to this source (discussing former fleets); Renzi's credentials are restated in this source, always from Chiamami Città (both these sources are now used in the article). IgnatiusofLondon (talk) 21:39, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Route number introduction
The text currently strongly implies that the route was only first numbered 11 in 1959 (and presumably was unnumbered between 1939 and 1959), but personally I do not know that to have been the case, and as far as I know the trolleybus line may have carried number 11 from its opening in 1939. Do we have a source for this info? The Giro book does not say, and I do not have the 2021 Roberto Renzi book. SJ Morg (talk) 09:20, 30 June 2023 (UTC)