Talk:University of Georgia/Archives/2018

Edit warring over claim of "first state-chartered university in the country"
Coxonian is edit warring to insert a claim in the opening paragraph of this article that this university is "the country's oldest state-chartered university and the birthplace of the American system of public higher education." However, there are several institutions that make credible claims to this title. In fact, these claims are so well-known and this claim so contentious that we have an entire article about it. So it's clearly inappropriate and misleading to state this as fact in this article when it's a disputed claim with several institutions that have valid claims. It's also inappropriate to edit war instead of discussing the issue in talk. ElKevbo (talk) 21:12, 4 June 2018 (UTC)


 * No one is edit warring. But there are two other people with personal agendas, including you ElKevbo. That is obvious. I have continued to produce independent source after independent source proving the fact that the University of Georgia is the first state-chartered public university in America. This is a DIFFERENT claim than being the oldest public university. No one refutes this claim as it is easily verifiable. Georgia was either the first or it was not. That means you have to PROVIDE EVIDENCE that another state was the first to charter a public university. Neither William and Mary nor the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill makes the claim that they were the first state-chartered public university because they would need to produce said state charter and neither has one older than Georgia's. In fact, I provided evidence from a research university library that has the actual physical historical document in question on display for any historian in the world to see and question. None have. Yet, you and your friend still refute THAT! When did research libraries become not good enough for Wikipedia? I also most recently provided yet another source that is the SAME source Harvard University uses on its Wikipedia page to cite its founding date. I can't wait to you refute that because intellectual honesty means you'll have to question and delete Harvard's founding status. At this point, I believe you have no respect for knowledge or the truth. A little education and learning how to read goes a long way. Coxonian (talk) 01:29, 5 June 2018 (UTC)


 * First, stop accusing other editors of having "personal agendas." Focus on edits, not editors.
 * Second, your claim is that the University of Georgia is "the first state-chartered public university in America." I don't know of anyone who disputes the claim that the state of Georgia was the first to charter a public university.  But there are legitimate disputes about which of the now-public universities was the first to (a) be founded and operational in a meaningful sense (note that UGA, like many institutions, existed only on paper for several years until a physical campus was established, classes taught, and the first students graduated; UNC was chartered later than UGA but was established more quickly and graduated students before UGA so they lay claim to the "first public university in the U.S. title," too, a dispute that Thelin discusses on page 45 of his 2004 book A History of American Higher Education) and (b) become a real university and not just a college or seminary with a fancy, unearned name.  So simply repeating the institution's claims without noting that they're problematic and contentious is misleading at best and outright dishonest at worst.  Like many claims of being first, it's more complex that it appears at first and we need to tell readers about that complexity instead of arbitrarily supporting one side by only citing their evidence and their supporter's evidence. ElKevbo (talk) 10:11, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Coxonian, your edits were WP:EDITWAR with other users because you didn't discuss your changes before simply reverting the other user multiple times.


 * The specifics concerning first and oldest are very clearly disputed by a number of different institutions. This dispute is notable and is the very reason wikipedia has a separate article that describes the complexities of this issue located at Oldest public university in the United States. If you read the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill article it reads "After being chartered in 1789, the university first began enrolling students in 1795, which also allows it to be one of three schools to claim the title of the oldest public university in the United States." This is a more accurate representation of the information you are attempting to add into the lead or introductory paragraph because it provides a neutral and balanced view.


 * It is also not encyclopedic to claim that the University of Georgia is "the birthplace of the American system of public higher education.". Your reference does not include information that backs this claim. It states the "charter helped lay the foundation for the American system of public higher education". For this reason that specific edit is incorrect and WP:PROMOTIONAL. We strive to be fair and balanced in our editing across wikipedia. Is there a way that you can rephrase your edits so that they read in a neutral, balanced manner? Randomeditor1000 (talk) 14:15, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Look, Wikipedia is not the place to decide history. I am well aware of the disputes about what is the oldest public university. But what is NOT in dispute is that the University of Georgia was the first public college to be granted a state charter. The granting of a charter, whether by a king/queen or state, is the standard by which the vast majority of colleges reference as their founding date. This is why I am confused as to why you all have such an issue with it in this particular case. It is a historical FACT. UNC's charter came much later and William & Mary was a private institution with a royal charter. Therefore, my suggestion is to stick with the facts. By the way, William & Mary's Wikipedia page has absolutely NO INDEPENDENT CITATIONS backing up any of its historical founding claims. Again, it has NO CITATIONS. They have ZERO CITATIONS besides a link to a university website, let alone cite some reference about a controversy between three public universities. Yet, you all have gone through hell and high water to dispute all of my citations. This is why I remain so confused about what you have been doing and continue to believe you people have a personal agenda. Yes, including you ElKevbo. I continue to await your passionate editing to "correct" that page, along with many others. Regarding the University of Georgia I see nothing wrong with writing: "Founded in 1785, it is the country's oldest state-chartered university." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Coxonian (talk • contribs) 17:40, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
 * That phrasing is very clearly is promotional by intentionally splitting hairs. Wikipedia isn't based on promotional phrases. See WP:NPOV and WP:BOOSTERISM. Again a neutral phrasing could be: "The University of Georgia was chartered in 1785 and the first classes were held in 1801, which also allows it to be one of three schools to claim the title of the Oldest public university in the United States." Just so I'm clear William and Mary College has a very detailed historical record of it's institution on it's website located at: https://www.wm.edu/about/history/index.php. I'm not sure that they are any less accurate then the University of Georgia's institutional history webpage. Beyond that there are quite a few other reliable sources concerning it's history. Randomeditor1000 (talk) 18:58, 5 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree, that's parsing it very fine to wiggle the "first" claim in there. We already have the article that explains with all the depth and nuance needed the various "first" claims among American universities. That single sentence is misleading and lacks all that context. Seraphimblade Talk to me 21:46, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Wait a minute, when I cited a university website I was specifically told that it was not good enough because it needed to be independent. ElKevbo wrote: "the IHE link was written by the university" and Seraphimblade wrote: "needs a secondary reliable source." But it's OK for William and Mary to have a self-promotional university website as its one tepid source? Randomeditor1000 you honestly call 6 short paragraphs that were clearly copy and pasted by a spokesperson, without any attributions, a "detailed historical record"? Are you joking? Do you even know what a historical record is? And just saying they have reliable sources doesn't make it true. So please cite these "reliable sources" because that Wikipedia page does not. Let us compare the two sources, here is the University of Georgia's detailed historical record written with chapter upon chapter of historical details that are now housed in a rare book library: http://dlg.galileo.usg.edu/reed/. Also, I am still waiting for someone to tell me why the source I provided 24 hours ago (the 1961 book "The American College and University." ISBN 0-8203-1285-1)- the same used on Harvard University's Wikipedia to cite its claim as America's oldest university - is not reliable. Or is that citation only reliable for Harvard and not the University of Georgia? Again, it appears you have a double standard. As for your suggested phrase, William and Mary does not even reference any controversy about oldest public university, so please explain why should the University of Georgia? Again, please provide actual EVIDENCE (a Wikipedia page is not evidence) that disputes the University of Georgia's claim as being the oldest state-chartered university in America....I'm still waiting. Coxonian


 * If you have requests or suggestions for other articles, please discuss them in the Talk pages for those articles. We should be consistent across these articles and we'd appreciate your help if you can be constructive and helpful without continuing to attack other editors.
 * With respect to this article, I think we've answered your questions; the fact that you don't like those answers doesn't mean that we have to continue to have the same discussion over and over again. We're not going to use this article to promote a view that is so simplistic that it's dishonest. ElKevbo (talk) 00:34, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

This is a discussion ElKevbo. If you have no answers to my questions, then feel free to leave the discussion. Or did you think this would be a one-side discussion in which you didn't have to address my concerns? You have failed to provide a reasonable argument as to why the sources I have used are not valid, even though they are the same sources used in other Wikipedia pages. You have also failed to address the inconsistencies in your own arguments. You asked me to provide other sources and I did. Yet, you still have a problem. The University of Georgia's claim as the first-state chartered university in America is not disputed by anyone. It is easily verifiable and is a fact cited by historians of colleges and universities. Here is an entire article about the charter: http://www.libs.uga.edu/hargrett/archives/exhibit/charter/. If Wikipedia editors are uncomfortable with facts and feel the need to engage in some kind of politics, I have every right to express my concerns about that. That is not a personal attack. But you ElKevbo have clearly attacked me as promoting a "view that is so simplistic that it's dishonest." If this view is so simplistic then why can't you directly answer my questions? Here they are once again: 1) There is a difference in claiming to be the oldest public university and being the first state-chartered university in America. This is a historical fact and I have provided ample sources to verify that. Why is that a problem? 2) The 1961 book "The American College and University" p. 275 ISBN 0-8203-1285-1 is a source that backs this claim. It is also used as a citation on Harvard University's page to back its claim as the oldest university in America. Why is this source a problem? 3) William & Mary cite it's own webpage as a source when I was told that was not a reliable source. William & Mary also does not even cite a controversy about the oldest public university, yet that is what you've suggested with this page. Why are Wikipedia editors inconsistent in how they edit this issue? My suggestion remains: "Founded in 1785, it is the country's oldest state-chartered university." Coxonian (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:07, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
 * You have presented your case. I've already said why I disagree with it, which has nothing to do with the reliability of your posited reference material. Rather, it is that the way in which the material would be presented in the article is misleading to the reader, and would not convey the nuance and context that the article on the "first university" claims conveys. If you feel that other articles also inappropriately present such claims, I'd likely agree, but I haven't read every article on Wikipedia. Seraphimblade Talk to me 15:11, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Removal of Rose Bowl from the History section
UGA is a very football-focused school. The sport is a frequently mentioned throughout all three of the history books I have about the school's history. I have had to try to actively avoid focusing on it when I rewrote the entire History section. In the end, winning the Rose Bowl and being one of the two teams in 2018 College Football Playoff National Championship is historically significant. I am not a football fan, but what I really wanted to include is that this is "their 13th SEC Championship". That is very encyclopedic and historically relevant.

I am working top to bottom through this page and plan to nominate for Good Article when I am finished. Would you consider reverting your edit in light of that. At least temporarily in AGF, I am personally trying to practice WP:ONLYREVERT when necessary. If you read the entire section, the inclusion of SEC Championship would make sense. Although, I did not write this explicitly, the growth of the Southeastern Conference has gone hand-in-hand with the growth of UGA. UGA was a founding member of the SEC and a founding member of its predecessor Southern Conference (both I've mentioned in the history section). UGA history and Georgia Bulldogs football history are inherently linked. I am currently reading about the campus. You won't believe how many buildings, some of them academic buildings, are named after former football coaches.--- Coffee  and crumbs  00:31, 21 July 2018 (UTC)