Talk:Veganism/Archive 11

Please remove the Earliest proponents page
Veganism has been part of hinduism since the religion was first 'founded. It is not a new idea thought of by Westerners to take credit of.Kanchipuramsilk83 (talk) 18:43, 11 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Dubious, discuss. E.g. the Vedas have rituals for sacrificing cows and sacrificed animals were usually eaten. Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:21, 11 August 2015 (UTC)


 * We could probably do better with the history - the idea of abstaining from the use of animals is an old one, but I'm not as certain about the specific dietary restrictions of modern veganism. I think there were probably vegans in ancient Greece and India, and avoidance of dairy products and eggs has precedent in the Cathars, who however ate fish. This might be a better conversation to have at history of vegetarianism, however. --Sammy1339 (talk) 22:48, 11 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Various forms of vegetarianism where common (less or more) in some regions in the ancient world: India, Greece, Israel, China, Japan... But NONE of these resembled what we call today "Veganism"; He who claims they did, should give some strong evidence. Ben-Yeudith (talk) 03:20, 12 August 2015 (UTC)


 * I have been looking for Hindu sources which say it is wrong to use products from cows. Do you have any? I know they exist but cannot find them.  Blue Rasberry   (talk)  20:06, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't see enough people in the images
I would like to see images with more people in them, and not just buildings or views. In about January (I think) I've uploaded an image from a Vegan demonstration in Tel aviv, Israel (attached), that was full of people, but Sarah (SlimVirgin) deleted it for reasons that I must say - were not very clear to me (I think deleting it was a mistake). BTW, when I say "People" I'm not talking about portraits, such as Watson's or Singer's portraits, but rather of pictures of views & buildings that contain some people\faces in it, smiles, people dining, something like that, I miss this in the current Image array of the article. Anyway, if I will find something I'll upload as soon as I can. Ben-Yeudith (talk) 16:39, 19 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Propose some more pictures - let's find a good one.
 * I object to this one because it is not apparent what is happening and there is no description for the file. It would be a better picture if in the file description it named the event, said something about what the people were doing, where they are, and when the event was held. Without context it seems unrelated to veganism.  Blue Rasberry   (talk)  20:04, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Please tell me user:Blue Rasberry, Do you think I should copy the image's description to it's "File description" section? Ben-Yeudith (talk) 14:15, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * If there is reason to believe that the image in the caption reflects the content of the media, then yes, it would be useful to copy the description from Wikipedia to the description on Commons.
 * I cannot read the source cited because I cannot read Hebrew. Is the cited source about the protest in the picture? What reason do you have to believe that the image is a "demonstration of vegans", and not a protest that includes a range of reasons? I hesitate to use the image without more information about what is happening in the image.  Blue Rasberry   (talk)  15:24, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, I see mainly what's written in the signs... I cannot change the file name if this is the main problem (Since not I uploaded the image) but I might be able to re upload it from my account with some other images... I will try to bring more demonstration images soon. Ben-Yeudith (talk) 16:21, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Here are Schnitzels that I myself made


I offer to upload them to the article. Blessings, Ben-Yeudith (talk) 07:42, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Section Vitamin B12
Hi!

In my opinion the section Veganism is quite good. The only thing is: the last sentence concerning "Red Star" sounds like just an advertisement to me. -- seth (talk) 10:50, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Hey! I've reworked that paragraph to include just a single list of food products that have B12-fortified versions (it now matches Vitamin B12). A quick Google search reveals that there are multiple brands of fortified nutritional yeast available, so Red Star is nothing special, even if it does offer the full RDA. This is a case of undue WP:WEIGHT in my opinion. Also, hope you don't mind, I fixed the missing ']' in your comment. -- Brian heim composer (talk) 19:03, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi!
 * Yes, that (WP:WEIGHT) have been exactly my concerns. The paragraph looks great now. Thanks for reworking! :-) -- seth (talk) 21:53, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Resolving duplication of information and unclear article outline
Hey all, I noticed that the article currently has a section called "Eggs, dairy, honey, silk" under "Animal products". At the same time, however, there's a "Honey" section and "Egg replacements" section under "Vegan diet". Aside from introductory material, I'm not sure why exactly these sections are kept distinct. The header "Animal products" seems a bit vague to me--is it detailing what animal products vegans avoid and why? In that case, maybe "Avoidance" is a better header for the whole section.

Here's what I propose:


 * Animal products => Avoidance of animal products
 * Remove subheaders Avoidance and Eggs, dairy, honey, silk and rewrite the section for flow
 * Plant milk, cheese, mayo => Dairy substitutes
 * Merge the contents of Honey under Vegan diet with the newly-titled Avoidance of animal products section
 * Possibly put a small section about honey in the Vegan diet section with information about how it is sometimes included in a vegan diet. I think the majority of information about the debate should be somewhere outside of the Vegan diet section, however.

Regardless, if honey is kept in Vegan diet, I think it should be moved between Egg replacements and Vegan food groups, since the first few sections are about specific foods and the later sections are about nutrients and effects on health.

Regards, Brian heim composer (talk) 18:55, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Some demographics about vegans
So a while ago I came across this study that is focused on veganism. Some interesting facts (IMO): https://humaneleaguelabs.wordpress.com/2014/04/07/report-large-scale-survey-of-vegans-vegetarians-and-meat-reducers/


 * The primary reason for being vegan for most vegans is the concern for animal welfare (65%), followed by their own health (24%); the latter 11% is most likely to be environmental reasons (based off of more detailed chart which clusters both vegans and vegetarians) (QUESTION 11)
 * 27% of vegans drink plant-based milks at least every 2 days, 29% eat mock meats at least every 2 days, and 32% eat tofu at least every 2 days. (QUESTION 2)
 * 86% of vegans state that animal welfare is an important factor as to why they're vegan; 60% say their health is, and additionally, 59% state the environment is. (QUESTION 14) — Preceding unsigned comment added by B23Rich (talk • contribs) 01:57, 12 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Please read: Notability thanks! --huggi - never stop exploring (talk) 02:18, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

animal deaths caused by vegans
The animals deaths caused by vegans unrelated to eating is not mentioned, this is far more than the amount eaten. how about some balance?Reterterterter (talk) 07:13, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree, and I've added it several times only to have it deleted by the primary contributor to this article. Apparently, it is now discussed in the ethics of eating meat article, but I think it should be mentioned here. Viriditas (talk) 07:20, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I would like to join the discussion. Would that be a separate section and what would the section look like? --huggi - never stop exploring (talk) 07:21, 1 November 2015 (UTC)
 * It's been discussed in the archives, there are older versions in the page history, and you can visit the ethics of eating meat article where extant vestiges remain. You should be able to get a good idea from reviewing those things. Viriditas (talk) 07:26, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Schnitzels


Ben, please don't keep adding those images to the page, particularly the schnitzels. If you don't like the ones we have, there are lots of good vegan food images on Commons and even better ones on Flickr. Most people will release them if asked. SarahSV (talk) 05:23, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Hello,


 * 1. What are "these images"? What images do you mean?


 * 2. What's wrong with the Schnitzels image?


 * I've tried to add only 3 images: the current Schnitzels image, the one of Bixa orellana as a Vegan cosmetics material (which you have deleted for a reason unclear to me), and another one (I think, I can't recall now what it was). You where the only one who objected for all of them, though User:Blue Raspberry objected to another one about a Vegan demonstration in Tel Aviv, Israel in the kinda rational claim that it doesn't seem enough related to Veganism. Ben-Yeudith (talk) 17:39, 13 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Ben, there were more than three (see here, for example, where you added 12). It's partly the number of images, partly the type, partly that you keep adding them over objections. The schnitzel image is a picture of something (not entirely clear what) in a plastic box. The demo image was one of people holding signs in Hebrew. There was the blue plastic pillow filling, the rice and beans made of dairy yoghurt, and the Indian meal that, according to the source (not the image page) was vegetarian, not vegan.


 * There are a lot of free vegan images on Commons and Flickr taken by professional vegan caterers, so if you want to replace any of the food images, we can find a new one from those collections. They list the ingredients, so we can be reasonably sure they're vegan, and the images are often professional looking. SarahSV (talk) 20:00, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Adding one image at a time shouldn't be considered problematic by means of "number of images".
 * I see nothing wrong with the type of the image of the Schnitzels or the Bixa Orellana. It's a matter of the majority's consent and I hope there will be a majority to support them from now on.
 * You where mainly the only one who objected the images. Sadly there aren't many other opinions in the talk page.
 * I have many free images at hand (some are indeed from Flickr) and not only of food. When I'll find the time I'll search and upload. Ben-Yeudith (talk) 00:13, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Ben, thinking about it some more, there's no reason you shouldn't create Veganism in Israel, if you want to make that your focus. I've noticed you adding quite a bit of material about prevalance there, food, etc. It would be good to have individual article countries if the sources exist. We could link to them at the top of the demographics section. SarahSV (talk) 21:28, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Nice idea. Ben-Yeudith (talk) 00:13, 14 December 2015 (UTC)