Talk:Video game/Archive 3

UK overtakes Japan
The UK has now overtaken Japan as the world's second biggest video game market, that's Chartrack's numbers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.9.142.169 (talk) 22:56, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Character Creation
What are some good games that you can create a character? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.218.18.167 (talk • contribs)


 * This is not really a message board for discussing such things, but even so, this question is much too vague. What kind of character do you want to create?  RPG?  Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion is good.  A more realistic human avatar?  The Sims 2.  Did you have something specific in mind? &mdash; Frecklefoot | Talk 18:15, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Wrestling games like Smackdown are always fun for their create-a-wrestlers. Marasmusine 20:56, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Check out Spore. It's coming out Sept. 7Doomrider15 (talk) 19:10, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Mistake in Sales section?
The Sales section suggests that the NPD data is as of 2004, yet apparently the PC game numbers are 15% down from 2006. Surely this is a mistake? -- Tomos ANTIGUA Tomos 18:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is a mistake. The cite it references shows 2004 vs. 2005 data. &mdash; Frecklefoot | Talk 12:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Pac-man.png
Image:Pac-man.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 00:17, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Pac-man.png
Image:Pac-man.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 23:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Intro

 * "A video game, or videogame, is a game [...]"

This does not read well, too many 'games'. I fixed up the first paragraph but someone saw fit to reject the changes wholesale. Vranak 23:10, 17 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Because a) It was incorrect and left out discrete logic games other cpu and none code based games, as I stated in the edit summary. b) It made the intro way to complicated.  The subject is about games, so there's not a lot of redundancy as you claim, i.e. it *is* a game.  --Marty Goldberg 00:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Stylistically the intro is a disaster area. But you're more invested in the article than I, so if that's the way you like it, that's the way it'll stay. Best regards. Vranak 02:32, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

video collecting in "see also"
I added video collecting link in the "see also" section as i noticed that article has been tagged since nov '06 for not being linked with similar topics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.63.94 (talk) 14:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Replaced main image
I replaced the main image with a free screenshot of the open source video game SuperTux. The game is inspired by Super Mario Bros., so it's an free use equivalent of a popular game most readers will recognize. --Jtalledo (talk) 05:27, 28 September 2007 (UTC)


 * However I agree with the other editor, its not a notable game and most will go "What's that doing there? Never heard of it."  Likewise, you're confusing the usage of free alternative in the fair use statement.  Its referring to finding a  free alternative of the photo subject, i.e. a free use version of Pac-Man in this case.  The scope of "free use equivalent" in this context is not "go and find a similar game."  Secondly, there are guidelines here regarding the non-inclusion of modern homebrew remakes/hacks/"inspired by's".   Most notably, because they themselves violate the copyrights and trademarks of the games they were "inspired by".  And most certainly, an entry of such importance as this should *not* be leading off with the image of a non-notable homebrew hack.  --Marty Goldberg 07:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Indeed, as I stated, SuperTux is nowhere near notable enough to include an image of it in an article such as this; from what I can deduce, the article may even be eligible for deletion, especially with its lack of sources. Frankly, being similar to an iconic game isn't enough to make it recognisable itself. I don't know everything about Wikipedia's fair-use policies, but that Pac-Man image seems alright. Haipa Doragon (talk) 10:49, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please keep the pac-man image; it is iconic, historical, and acceptable under fair-use. One alternative might be to use a photograph of an arcade cabinet or handheld with a video game in progress. Had a look on Wiki Commons but couldn't find anything usable. Marasmusine 08:33, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * While I would one would certainly agree, personally, that there should be imagine of an iconic game (Pac-Man fits, as would Mario or Space Invaders or a few others)...but I guarantee that many people on WP would say that the fact that one COULD very easily use a libre image means we MUST use one. Remember, fair-use on WP isn't just a matter of law, it's much more restricted than that. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 10:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I second Pac-Man. It sums up video games, and is encyclopedic. It is quickly obvious what it is, whereas a screenshot from a modern 3D game could be confused with a photo initially, and has other problems. Pac-Man is good. PerryTachett (talk) 21:27, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Why not a picture of Pong? The Pacman image should stay but maybe lower down the page. --M ASEM 11:36, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that wouldn't be too bad, although I think Pac-Man is more recognisable. Haipa Doragon (talk) 12:42, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I like the Pong idea. We could easily create an image illustrating Pong. Since it's simple looking enough, it could be released as a free use SVG image. At any rate, I don't think a fair use image should be used - no matter how recognizable the game is. There's dozens of free software games out there. --Jtalledo (talk) 15:25, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * There's already screenshots of Pong here that can be put in. And again, "free alternative" has nothing to do with using shots from "free software".  The "free" there is meant to denote the image itself being put up, not the value of the game.  --Marty Goldberg 17:59, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I mention free software because most of the time, screenshots from copyrighted games aren't free. But yes, I know there is distinction. :P --Jtalledo (talk) 11:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I had a look on flickr, and found some free images licensed under creative commons:, , , , , , , these ones are not very good, but I'm sure a better one could be found. Alternatively, we can use any Ubisoft screenshots since they're free: Category:Ubisoft screenshots. JACO PLANE  &bull; 2007-10-8 19:24

Video Games
A video game is a game that involves interation with a user interface to genterate visal feedback on a video device.The word video game traditional refers to a raster display device.The history of video games traces back to 1948.The video game was concived and patited by Thomas T. Goldsmith Jr. and Estle Ray Mann. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.64.17.250 (talk) 21:04, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Zork
The article "Computer and video games" redirects here, but this article doesn't cover text-based computer games. I think this article should be renamed and Zork, etc. should be added to the text. Certainly something has to be changed, anyway. --MQDuck 22:56, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The article is undergoing some revisions and we can try to get a mention of text based games. However, I can't really think of a better name than "video game". (Guyinblack25 talk 16:43, 24 October 2007 (UTC))
 * The "better name" is "Text Based Games", which is what they've been referred to for years. These computer based text only games aren't classified as "video games".  The quandary now exists only because it was decided to merge the computer games with video games entries. --Marty Goldberg 16:47, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The opening sentence covers all game types, including text-based (they still use a video display, after all). In terms of specific coverage, there is a section which directs a reader to video game genres, which in turn links to interactive fiction and suchlike. Marasmusine 06:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I concur with Marasmusine on this one. While they aren't big on graphics, text-based adventure games are video games since they use a video display as their primary form of feedback (or output).  Trying to come up with another classification for them would just lead to confusion, which we just tried to fix by classifying computer games as video games.  &mdash; Frecklefσσt | Talk 12:02, 26 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I wasn't suggesting another classification, just pointing out they had the original classification of Computer Game before the merge. And no, unless the computer at the time specifically outputted an RF signal (which some of the early home computers did) it was not a "video display".  --Marty Goldberg 16:02, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, however I think we could create another article for text-based games in general (possibly) as well as add a little bitof info here. There is "more" than enough info on text based games (as well as tons of reliable pages) to warrant a complete article on the subject.  I think I might consider trying to do that later, if no-one else does it first. ( unless one is already there, I haven't looked yet). businessman332211 16:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Give text adventure games their own article, certainly. But we should decide whether this article is really about video games or all computer games (video or not). If it's strictly about video games, "Computer and video games" should not redirect here. And, really, I think it makes a lot more sense to have the complete history here, without splitting the subjects up because of the unfortunate ambiguity of the common term "video game". I propose this article be renamed "Computer and video games". --MQDuck 23:51, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Marasmusine as well. SharkD 18:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with MQDuck. Not all computer games are video games. Does the term "teletype" or "printing terminal" mean anything to you kids? Some of my earliest exposure to text based adventures was on computers that had no video terminals whatsoever. The computer typed everything onto paper. See ASR33. We also have to decide if any game with a computer in it is a computer game, or if some of them are "electronic games". Is Simon (game) a computer game? What about Dark Tower (game) and other electronic boardgames? How about a pinball machine with a CPU in it? -- Akb4 06:54, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Well stated, and my thinking as well. It was part of the reason for my creating the first two sentences of the lead paragraph, to compromise with those who want to categorize everything computerized and interactive as a "video game" in the general usage of the term. I think its inaccurate to refer to everything in that oversimplified "catch phrase" usage, and wholeheartedly agree with what you're stating.  --Marty Goldberg 07:02, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * (outdent) As a follow-up to Akb4's comment, I believe that the problem here is that electronic game is a redirect page for "video games." I was hoping to use the term "electronic game" to describe audio games but as it stands now that would appear to be incorrect since it is implied that electronic games are all video-based.
 * It seems to me that the best solution here is to split "electronic games" off from "video games" as a parent group, and then create a relatively small "electronic games" article which would give brief overviews of all appropriate subcategories.
 * The "electronic games" article would then take on the following general structure:
 * electronic games
 * text-based games (like teletype Zork)
 * electronic handhelds (like Simon)
 * pinball machines, etc.
 * audio games
 * video games
 * computer games
 * console games
 * arcade games
 * other
 * other (like Dark Tower?)
 * After creating this "electronic games" article, the one thing which should be changed with the "video games" article is to include a link to "electronic games" in the first line. Perhaps something like "A video game is an electronic game that involves interaction with a user interface to generate visual feedback on a video device. "
 * Thoughts? -Thibbs (talk) 17:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅ OK, expansion complete. -Thibbs (talk) 18:31, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Game 3.0
Does anyone thing it would be worth it to add a paragraph about the different levels of games that Phil Harrison talked about in the developers conference? I liked the concept.--Playstationdude 02:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source for this? Haipa Doragon (talk) 16:11, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it would be a great contribution if you could find a couple of "reliable" sources on the subject. Anything that adds to the overall knowledge we have on the subject seems like a good idea. (As long as it's rational, fair, and has decent sources) I think it's a good idea. businessman332211 16:12, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * A quick Google search results in this and this. The articles don't really talk at length about what Game 3.0 is exactly. Mostly it just seems to be hype/advertisement for the PS3's new Home thingy. I was left still confused after quickly reading some of the articles. SharkD 19:06, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'd say ignore it, sounds like little more than promotional jargon to me. Haipa Doragon (talk) 19:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, History of video games does mention blast processing. Maybe it should be included (in that article) in a similar manner? SharkD 19:51, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll add a short paragraph or a couple of sentences. If there are multiple negative comments about it, we'll just take it down.--Playstationdude 00:19, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Platforms
The current text is completely stupid.

"A platform is the electronic device that one or more players use to interact with a video game and can vary in design and usage." Incorrect. An input device is the electronic device that one or more players use to interact with a video game. Also, poor grammar.

"Some platforms provide functions other than playing video games, while others are designed specifically for game play." This makes it sound as if computers were designed with the primary intention of allowing people to play video games, with other functions simply tacked on. It's console-centric. Also, poor grammar; you use 'other' twice in the same sentence. It sounds bad.

"Early video games used computers to provide game interaction and continue to be used today." Early video games continue to be used today? Later video games weren't made for computers (according to your later definition)? Finally, games don't use computers; people use computers.

"In the 1970s, companies began producing computers specifically for playing games, including arcade games and video game consoles." A game is not a computer. Also, this is the only sentence placed within a historical context. Either remove the context, or move it to a 'History of video game consoles' article.

"Arcade games are stand-alone systems that feature a single game." A game is not a system. Is an arcade system a platform? What is a system?

"They are normally housed in an cabinet and used coin slots to require players to pay a fee to play the game." You confuse past with present tense. Using two sentences to describe arcade systems is digressing, IMO. Also, the arcade system itself doesn't use coin slots; people use coin slots.

"Video game consoles are computers that are built and marketed solely for playing video games." Fine. How is this an improvement over the original text? Aren't there other differences between consoles and PCs? (hint: 'video')

"Both stationary and hand held consoles have been produced and traditionally use special game formats that allow usage on only a specific system." Poor grammar. Explain the meaning of game formats. Compatibility issues don't exist on PCs? What does this have to do with the previous sentence?

"Examples include file formats written to optical discs and proprietary cartridges." Examples of what? What about file formats written to hard disks? Are the file formats the only things that make cartridges incompatible?

"Because of the different types of platforms, video games are also categorized by the platform the are available on, though games can be released on multiple platforms." Also? How else are they categorized? Poor grammar.

"A PC game refers to a game played on a personal computer, while a console game refers to a game played on console that connects to television." The section is about platforms, not games. Word it as such. The original text explained that consoles could be hooked up to other things besides televisions. Also, handhelds aren't connected to televisions, yet they are consoles. The original text was superior.

"Handheld video games are played on portable console systems and mobile games are normally games that are played on any portable electronic device." A handheld is not a portable electronic device? What does it run on? Gasoline? Also, poor grammar.

Overall, the current text consists of poorly-written, often erroneous statements that aren't formed into a coherent passage. I find fault with every single sentence in both paragraphs. The original text was satisfactory. Simply add an introductory sentence to it explaining that PCs, game consoles and hand helds are all examples of vg platforms. SharkD 21:31, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Heavily Agree I have to agree with him on that one statement. Looking at what was there, and what is there now, the previous was a lot better.  I think we should re-instate what was there before, but maximize on it (maybe some rewording to make it perfect.  (Just my thoughts). businessman332211 22:31, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well first off, that first statement is a bit uncalled for and serves no other purpose than to degrade and agitate. Second, if you'd like to help by doing some grammar edits, that would be appreciated. Cutting people down will not be. If you want to help, then let's work together. If you want to nitpick about grammatical usage of words, go ahead, in the end it will help the article. But please do it in a constructive manner. Now about your comments. You brought up some good points, hopefully we can meet somewhere in the middle on this to improve this article past B-Class.
 * With regard to the platform definition, we may have different definitions of interaction. The input device like the mouse or controller is what is physically used to interact with the software. The platform however facilitates the interaction by acting as an intermediary between the input device and the software. Now that you bring up the point, the distinction needs to be made. We can tweak the current statement to better convey this.
 * With regard to the statement: "Some platforms provide functions other than playing video games, while others are designed specifically for game play." Some computers are designed with the primary intention of allowing people to play video games. However after reading, clarifying the progression from a regular computer to a gaming PC or console system would be helpful.
 * With regard to the statement: "Early video games used computers to provide game interaction and continue to be used today." that was slightly changed from what I had originally intended. Regardless, clarification would help as stated above. Perhaps Early video games ran on computers, just a suggestion.
 * With regard to a "game is not a computer", that is a correct statement. However, An arcade game refers to the self-contained hardware and software system that a person plays. And though it is historical information, it helps give a frame of reference to the progression of early computer games to the multi-platform model we have today. It does not go into any great depth and does not need to be excluded because the information it conveys is relevant.
 * With regard to the statement: "They are normally housed in an cabinet and used coin slots to require players to pay a fee to play the game.", This does need some grammatical work. Perhaps, "They are housed in a cabinet and utilize coin slots to require players to pay a fee to play the game." I don't think two sentences is too much, but I can see how the paragraph would be just fine without this statement.
 * With regard to your comment: "How is this an improvement over the original text?", you tell me. What would you do to improve it? It seems like a factual statement to me. Of course it is not perfect, but I think if we and others work together on it we can make it better.
 * With regard to "game formats", the statement is followed by, "Examples include file formats written to optical discs and proprietary cartridges". If you have a better alternative term, we'll use that. And if you'd like to include some info about file formats written to hard disks, go ahead if you think it'll improve the article.
 * With regard to the statement: "Because of the different types of platforms, video games are also categorized by the platform the are available on, though games can be released on multiple platforms." Your right, the also does seem out of place. We should remove it.
 * With regard to the statement: "A PC game refers to a game played on a personal computer, while a console game refers to a game played on console that connects to television." The statement is meant to provide more information about platforms by showing that games are sometimes categorized by the system they're on. It is also meant to provide vocabulary lesson to terms that either already show up in later sections or will probably be added later. Also, handhelds are mentioned later. If you have suggestions to better define the statement, I'm all ears.
 * With regard to your comment: "A handheld is not a portable electronic device? What does it run on? Gasoline?", I don't really understand what you mean by that. So I'll leave it at that for now.
 * Look, I'm all for making this article better. But let's work together on it. I'm not the best writer, I don't need someone throwing that in my face to know that. All I ask is that we be civil about this. You're obviously passionate and knowledge about the topic, so am I. So let's use that get this article to GA or FA. (Guyinblack25 talk 22:44, 30 October 2007 (UTC))
 * I also want to improve the article. By reverting to the original text. SharkD 23:11, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Here's the original text for reference:


 * "In common usage a 'PC game' refers to a form of media that involves a player interacting with a personal computer connected to a high-resolution video monitor. A 'console game' is played on a specialized electronic device that connects to a standard television set or composite video monitor. A 'handheld' gaming device is a self contained electronic device that is portable and can be held in a user's hands. 'Arcade game' generally refers to an even more specialized type of electronic device that is typically designed to play only one game and is encased in a special cabinet. These distinctions are not always clear and there may be games that bridge one or more platform. There are also platforms that have non video game variations such as in the case of electro-mechanically based arcade games. There are also devices with screens which have the ability to play games but are not dedicated video game machines. Examples are mobile phones, PDAs, graphing calculators, GPS receivers, MP3 players, digital cameras and watches."


 * Short, sweet and to the point (minus a short introductory sentence defining the word 'platform'). SharkD 23:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow, that's it? You don't even want to make an attempt to meet halfway on this? I least tried to explain my reasoning behind my edit and address the comments you made, which offered only rude criticism and no solutions to the problem you state is there. I'm sorry, but simply replying "I also want to improve the article. By reverting to the original text." and "Short, sweet and to the point" is not good enough. It offers no explanation or basis for keeping the old text. My edit isn't perfect, but neither is the original. I would like to try and work with you on because I feel the original text could use some improvements. (Guyinblack25 talk 23:42, 30 October 2007 (UTC))
 * See here. SharkD 02:03, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * "Well first off, that first statement is a bit uncalled for and serves no other purpose than to degrade and agitate."
 * I'm sorry.
 * "Second, if you'd like to help by doing some grammar edits, that would be appreciated. Cutting people down will not be."
 * It would require a complete re-write, which is unnecessary, as the original text was sufficient. SharkD 02:18, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If the "Editor assistance" is the route you want to take, that's fine. I had hope we could talk this out first though.
 * Also per Talk page guidelines, I kindly ask you to stop editing your own comments after others have replied to them. If you want to change it, please use the and to strike out the content of your comment you wish to change followed immediately by the new content. You may or may not already be aware of this, but if you are unhappy with your initial comments, I suggest using the preview function of the edit box before posting your comments. (Guyinblack25 talk 02:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC))


 * Wow! When did this argument start?  Let me in!  My own take is that the current text needs to be replaced.  However, I don't find the previous text to be any better.  Instead of just jumping into "...a PC game...", I feel we should introduce what platforms are and then discuss each platform (PC (which doesn't always mean a Windows box), video game console, etc.).  Just my $.02 before we try to craft something new. &mdash; Frecklefσσt | Talk 14:48, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess welcome to the discussion :-P I agree that both the current and previous text don't entirely get the job done and that something needs to be changed. Do you have any more specific suggestions or improvements you would make? Any particular phrasing or sentences? Stuff like that. (Guyinblack25 talk 15:22, 31 October 2007 (UTC))
 * As suggested, the original text needs a lead sentence that addresses the idea of platforms as a whole. That, and some other tweakages. A massive re-write is not in order at this time. Bulbous 22:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Could you please not revert that. A request was made with the Editor Assistance to help with this matter. Simply stating your opinion and then acting without giving people a chance to respond bypasses the whole idea behind talk pages. (Guyinblack25 talk 23:06, 31 October 2007 (UTC))
 * Wasn't that exactly what the person who re-wrote the section in the first place did? Let's leave it as it was, and discuss an alternative, instead of re-writing it and then discussing the merits of the re-write. Bulbous 23:26, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, the rewrite happened and then we started discussing. Regardless, what do you suggest to tweak the current content and what would be a good introductory statement? (Guyinblack25 talk 04:25, 1 November 2007 (UTC))

Can I just point out one error in these projected changes? Video Game Consoles are indeed specialized "computers". This is even more apparent with newer consoles such as the Xbox. In any case, the point remains that a console is more or less a computer with the sole purpose of running video games. Oh, and the whole "games don't use (Insert Object Here), People use (Insert Object Here)" just seems a bit extreme to me, and it sounds to me as though you're arguing for the sake of arguing. Hunter076 16:58, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, I added a short intro defining the term 'platform'. I think a third, separate paragraph describing compatibility issues between different platforms would be good. SharkD 15:14, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * This text still has some problems, I'm gonna explain my reasoning here before I make the changes
 * The term "platform" refers to the specific combination of electronic or computer hardware which, in conjunction with low-level software, allows a video game to operate. All video games run on computer hardware, and all computer hardware is electronic, why say electronic or computer hardware? Software is also problematic, low-level is an ambiguous term
 * In common usage a "PC game" refers to a form of media that involves a player interacting with a personal computer connected to a high-resolution video monitor. Why are we talking about games and not platforms, and this implies that if the PC is connected to a low-resolution monitor, it wouldn't commonly be called a PC game.
 * A "console game" is played on a specialized electronic device that connects to a standard television set or composite video monitor. Why are we specifying the display device? A console game refers to handhelds too.
 *  A "handheld" gaming device is a self contained electronic device that is portable and can be held in a user's hands. Unclear, A PC and console are self contained, this needs to specify that display device is self contained.
 * Any disagreement? Mad031683 19:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, actually, I do disagree. Much of this paragraph came out of careful wording to say exactly what was meant.
 * All video games do not run on computers. The word "electronic" is there in reference to "electro-mechanical" or video games that utilized very rudimentary electronic technology that does not raise to the level of being considered a computer.
 * As for "PC game", that is correct. "PC games" are not generally developed to run on a television or wristwatch. While some PC games have been ported to console, they have also had to have reduced graphics limitations imposed on them. So the statement is valid.
 * Console games do not refer to handelds. "Handhelds" refers to handhelds. Just because you don't use the term correctly doesn't mean it's used wrong here.
 * As for your last comment, sure ad a qualifier that handhelds generally have a self contained screen. Although I though the paragraph originally said this when it was originally drafted.
 * BcRIPster (talk) 20:40, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * "All video games run on computer hardware, and all computer hardware is electronic, why say electronic or computer hardware?"
 * Well, I think a computer is something used to do actual computing (i.e, input some data and perform operations on it). My DVD player has a computer in it. Does that make it a computer? SharkD 05:02, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Here is an article featuring the inventor of the video game console which calls consoles an "electronic device". SharkD (talk) 21:05, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, it might make sense to change the words "electronic systems" to "electronic devices" and cite it with that link. Anyone else have thoughts on that?BcRIPster (talk) 02:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

health/lives
Why is it that the only mention of health and lives is in the cheats section? Health bars and extra lives are a staple of virtually ever game, surely they deserve a mention somewhere? --Simpsons fan 66 22:30, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Top 3?
"The three largest producers of and markets for computer and video games (in order) are the United States, Japan and the United Kingdom." I read something somewhere (I think it was gamespot) that said that Canada was #3 now... Any truth to that? 207.179.165.75 (talk) 07:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Not likely. SharkD (talk) 17:38, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Not really. The sales data from the UK is incomplete, but Canada is well tracked and not as much as the approximates for the UK.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.168.231.72 (talk) 08:14, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Screen Shot used from GRAW (Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter)
The picture being used, "GRAW2 X360 El Paso Medic Tankcover14 full.jpg" is being used to the right of the intro section, and states that it is describing "The First-person shooter, exemplified in Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter 2, is a popular form of modern video game."

This is infact, untrue, since GRAW is a Third-Person Shooter, as one can see clearly by looking at the picture in question.

I have made an edit and changed this caption to "Third-Person Shooter [...]"

Tommosimmo (talk) 07:55, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Game sales
There's a story on BBC news which seems relevant to the game sales section;

It states "UK gamers have spent a record-breaking £1.52bn on titles in 2007, up 25% on last year and with two weeks of sales yet to be counted."

Is this noteworthy enough to be included in the section? I'll leave it up to someone else to decide. 86.31.111.213 (talk) 18:39, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Game Benefits
I have a problem with the line, " Most of the games feature ancient gods such as Leviathan, Shiva, and Freya." While it is true that the names have been used in FF games, it is not true that the gods have been used. That is to say that there is no FF game, which if played, would in any way help a person to understand any of these figures. Moreover, a player would not even know that they were the names of gods, unless that player was already aware of such information. Hence, I see no way in which this is a benefit of play; in fact it can have the unfortunate consequence of leading a player to correlate mythic figures with the figures of the same appearing in games. Surely, Shiva is not a half naked blue giant that sprays ice at the beckoning of a teenager with spiky hair.

On an aside, if this is going to be kept, it could be better written. The paragraph talks about games based in the civil war, FF games as a series, and then the US army using game controllers. The last has little, if anything, to do with games providing an education in their subject matter. Secondly, the sentence, in question above, should reference that the games being spoken of are FF games; it makes sense as "most games" more naturally ties in with the use of games in the first sentence of the paragraph, which is meant as games in general. Phoenix1177 (talk) 07:11, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, outwitting Robert E. Lee is not involved in learning about the supposed, often dubious, historical context of the game. Rather, it would be, if you were actually doing this; however, you are outwitting a computer AI, this is not quite the same. Granted that the need to think strategicly in some games is a benefit, this is not the benefit that the paragraph is attempting to convey. Hence, it should be mentioned elsewhere. Phoenix1177 (talk) 07:22, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Seeing as no one responded, I removed the paragraph, except for the sentence regarding the pacbot and the army. However, this also fails to show that video games are beneficial; it only shows that they are ubiquitous in youth culture. Hence, it might be prudent to make a section about game culture and place the sentence there, or erase the sentence as it doesn't fit any of the sections in the article.Phoenix1177 (talk) 09:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Let me offer my belated support of your changes. :-) &mdash; Frecklefσσt | Talk 18:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Videogame as one word
The guys over at collegehumor started an effort to use videogame as one word: http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1803646 on Feb 25th and its catching on.

Forbes magazine used videogames as one word on Jan 7th 2008 - http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/0107/092.html Abassiri (talk) 22:12, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm reading it used as an adjective, which may be appropriate, but I still gotta respond with a resounding "So?" JuJube (talk) 22:18, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The gentlemen over at the Videogame Style Guide and Reference Manual (p. 65) are quite adamant that it be videogame, and not video game: "videogame Catch-all term for any type of interactive entertainment software. Always write as one word. [...] Wrong: electronic game, VideoGame, Video Game, video-game, video game [...]" I'm not sure how much weight you'd want to give that. Naming conventions suggests, in any case, that we go with what "the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity". Has "videogame" yet crossed the threshold, that it would be the most common term for its referent? You'd need a broader survey to make the case. What term do GameSpot, GameSpy, IGN, PC Gamer, XBN, Nintendo Power, Joystiq, etc. use? Outside of the industry, what do major US, UK, AU, CA, IE, ZA, NZ newspapers use? Those would be important in determining the case than an effort by "collegehumor" and a single instance in Forbes. Geuiwogbil (Talk) 00:01, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I dunno, is EGM really all that relevant anymore? JuJube (talk) 00:04, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd rather stick with "video game", as we don't write "computergame", "arcadegame" or "consolegame". However, I've picked up a random Edge magazine (UK), and they do use "videogame" and "videogaming". Curses. Marasmusine (talk) 07:37, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * On a second look, it doesn't look like the guide is even all that consistent about it. There are two (p. 65, 39) instances of "video game" as an unquoted common noun in the 105 page guide, and they don't apply the rule to subgenres: we have "console games, portable games, computer games, arcade games and mobile games. All can be generally referred to as videogames." Not, it would seem, consolegames, portablegames, computergames, arcadegames, and mobilegames. Among their cited references (p. 95) we have four instances of "video game" and five of "videogame". I'm fine with the rules as is, although I do wonder what is the more unviersally-used term. Geuiwogbil (Talk) 16:15, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

TIME Collection
There is a collection of Video Game related stories that the TIME Archives put together, and that could be placed in the External Links section. The Collection could provide context and more resources for those users who wish to expand their research. --Kevindkeogh (talk) 19:54, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Terminology
I see that there are discrepancies between word usage in the UK and other countries on this topic - but this is not addressed or mentioned in the article.

In the UK, the term "video game" applies to the stand-alone arcade games which were popular in the 1980s. When playing games at home, they're more usually referred to as "computer games". The term "computer game" applies not just to games played on a computer, but also to some extent to games played on consoles. Alternatively, to be more precise, the term "console game" may be used to describe the games played on the dedicated games consoles.

This article does not address the terminology discrepancy. A British reader here, reading an article about "video games", expects to read about the huge arcade boxes of the 1980s - but now finds an article about home computer games in general.

Could I please have some more input from other people around the world? I want to know specifically what terms are used in different countries to apply to which types of games, before I start making notes in the article. Thanks. EuroSong talk 16:53, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


 * If you wish to dig through the talk archives on this page there was a *very* extensive discussion held on this subject of terminology. In fact it was a part of the discussion related to the renaming of this page and the category from "Computer and Video game" to just "Video game". The consensus was that while many people and publications over the years have misused the terms, their definition doesn't change. And to your statement about UK gamers... it has been proven, if nothing else than by referring to popular publications, that while a number of UK gamers have misused the terminology in daily usage (as they have in the U.S.), the misuse was not consistent. Currently the "Overview: Platform" segment covers the industry standard terminology and definitions of that terminology, although I thought there was previously a section covering the history of misuse which I no longer see present in the article. But that data would best fall under a section covering etymology in my mind if it was present at all. BcRIPster (talk) 19:18, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your reply. Sorry - I forgot to check the archives. I know how annoying it can be when an old discussion, thought to be settled, pops up again! EuroSong talk 05:21, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Video game costs
Does Wikipedia have an article or section describing the costs associated with making a game, such as obtaining a dev kit, paying the developers, music costs, and marketing? This is a very encyclopedic topic and it would be nice to have some information about this. MahangaTalk 04:04, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not aware of any such article but really there is no such thing as a common cost for making a game, and the cost to develop can run anywhere from tens of thousands to millions of dollars. Gamasutra (Game Developer magazine) runs a yearly salary survey that would be the closest thing to a dollar amount reference which you could build from but that only covers salaried workers in the industry and from my experience that is mostly inclusive of PC/Console developers. Even dev kit pricing isn't consistent from platform to platform and some companies keep that pricing under strict NDA so you might have trouble collecting it. It's an interesting idea for a page but not really encyclopedic unless you wanted to present it as a very high level discussion.BcRIPster (talk) 20:53, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Ratings
It says that many parents are unaware of the ratings. Why isn't there a sidenote that states the obvious fact that the ratings are shown right on the game box. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.255.72.52 (talk) 01:55, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Video Gamers in Europe - 2008
Interesting study available here. --Kozuch (talk) 21:28, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Best-Selling Video Game
Just looking to raise a concern. Though the Video game page states that Super Mario Bros is the "world's best-selling video game", the List of best-selling video games states that The Sims sold 50 million copies, compared to Super Mario Bros' 40... Just wondering if this has been raised before, and if there's a reason why The Sims isn't counted... Trust (talk) 11:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I've added a reference for Super Mario Bros. Concerning The Sims on the List of best-selling video games article, see Talk:List of best-selling video games. --Silver Edge (talk) 05:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, missed that... Thanks for clarifying! Trust (talk) 12:31, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Duke Nukem Forever
Just noting that 3D Realms, on the employment section of their site, claim that they do not operate according to deadlines, but rather continue to develop a game until it is right. They also note that they are a small team that works on just one project at a time.

I wonder if this would invalidate Duke Nukem Forever as an example of a deadline missed. Or perhaps 3D Realms implemented this policy as a result of its experience with Duke Nukem Forever. 

Old game
I was wondering if you could help me, I used to play a game on my laptop, it had a cat in it as the main character, you had to solve puzzles and find objects in rooms, or in stalls, or on trains, there was also different rooms to go into. I was playing it back in 2005 if this helps, one of the lines i most remember is "to be or not to be", please help me.

Thank you

Jackie N

[email removed] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.121.3 (talk) 20:17, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * This question is probably best posed at Reference desk/Computing. – xeno  ( talk ) 20:19, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Videogames: a form of recruitment.
The video game ‘America’s Army’ was commissioned by the U.S. Army aimed at adolescent boys as a form of recruitment. A CBS news reporter described it as ‘a video game created by the U.S. Army to win over the hearts and minds of American teenagers’. The U.S. army describes this game as an effective recruitment tool, and with new developments and features, they are hoping to ‘deploy even more young cyber-soldiers to the military's virtual battlefield’. This type of video game is an example of how young adolescents can be vulnerable as viewers of the media. Therefore, one must ask themselves whether American children are more likely to become desensitized to violence as a result of repeated exposure to violence in videogames, such as ‘America’s Army’. Thus, reinforcing the dynamic nature of videogames and how their purpose has shifted from being a simple interactive form of entertainment, to functional tools adopted by large corporations and governments to influence the public. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mossmas229 (talk • contribs) 03:58, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Improper Citation
I'm new and can't edit this myself but footnote #25 of this page reads "Gee, James Paul (2003). What Literacy and Learning Have to Teach Us About Learning and Literacy. Palgrave Macmillan. ISBN 1403961697." When in Fact the title of the book is What Video Games Have to Teach us About Literacy and Learning. Is someone could fix that it would be very much appreciated. 1:20pm Nov. 12th 2008
 * I fixed it. Thanks for the catch! BcRIPster (talk) 21:57, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Best games ever?
It seems like wikipedia has an article dedicated to the movies which are considered the best in the history of cinematography. I wonder, why we don't have a similar article dedicated to games? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.46.177.56 (talk) 12:39, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

I second this idea. I would love to see a list for the best games in history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.189.224.229 (talk) 18:20, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

i love
i love the sims 3 i want it december 26 2008  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.130.10.176 (talk) 15:03, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Gregorik's edit's to the opening section.
Social impact of gaming is covered at length later in the article and is not suitable for the opening paragraph explaining the concept of what a video game is. Additionally, the "stigma" you note is not as "widely" perceived as you would like to think. That's more a sterotype from the 90's and early 2000's than anything else. In the early days of video gaming in the 70's and 80's both genders played games. Pong is a key example as it was played by both genders in bars when it first was released. Ms. PacMan (another example) was a strong title with females in the 80's. I would recommend that if you really feel you need to expand on this overreaching claim that you are making, please cover it in the portion of the document that is relevant to the topic... and cite your sources for your claims.BcRIPster (talk) 08:02, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Types of releases
I'd like there also to be a section explaining the different types of releases, such as re-release, remake, enhanced remake, port, compilation, limited edition, collector's edition, etc. SharkD (talk) 20:00, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Interesting thought although it might become a source for subjective input. At best I would suggest you come up with a standalone page to go into the topic in detail and then that could be linked to from the video game page. Your big challenge is that there is no formal definition of any of these terms and not all publishers use them in the same way. In fact many of them are used as nothing more than marketing terms. Bottom line though, I would say there is no place for this in the article outside of a brief mention that companies use these kinds of terms to define one release from another of a specific game.BcRIPster (talk) 08:52, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Movies which used Computer Space - only one of 3 (or more?) is mentioned...
In the following text of the article,

"In 1971, Computer Space, created by Nolan Bushnell and Ted Dabney, was the first commercially sold, coin-operated video game. For its display it used a black-and-white television and the computer system was a state machine made of 74 series TTL chips.[7] The game was featured in the 1973 science fiction film Soylent Green. Computer Space was followed in 1972 by the Magnavox Odyssey, the first home console. Modeled after a late 1960s prototype console developed by Ralph H. Baer called the "Brown Box", it also used a standard television and game generated video signal.[3][8] These systems were followed by two versions of Atari's Pong; an arcade version in 1972 and a home version in 1975.[9] The commercial success of Pong led other companies to develop numerous Pong-clones and their own systems, spawning the video game industry.[10]"

Only Soylent Green is mentioned. The 1973 film Sleeper (Woody Allen), and in 1975 Jaws also had the game, Sleeper in the "future house", and Jaws in the arcade.

Due to the lockdown on this article, this information can not be added by common people, and the gods must approve and make changes.

For a citation, try http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Computer-Space

75.61.90.224 (talk) 02:10, 24 January 2009 (UTC)Dave McGary


 * I don't think it's necessary nor appropriate to catalog every appearance on this page though. I would suggest that you record all of the occurrences on the games' own page.BcRIPster (talk) 08:46, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Biased game benefits section
I understand wikipedia is edited formed by people based on their interest but this section is lacking. More ironic is how it downplays anti-gaming arguments. The section should be re-written and should include studies which show games having NO(not good or bad) effectsYVNP (talk) 08:18, 17 February 2009 (UTC)