Talk:Vladimir Putin

Incorrect info on Putin's job in the 1990s
"chief of the Main Control Directorate of the Presidential Property Management Department (until June 1998)" – this is incorrect. Should be "chief of the Main Control Directorate of the Presidential Administration (until June 1998)"

He worked (as deputy) in Presidential Property Management Department and later as head of the Main Control Directorate of the Presidential Administration of Russia (these days, "Main" is dropped from the name), not the Main Control Directorate of the Presidential Property Management Department (which is still called "Main"). These are two different offices.

I posted once before, but to no avail. Loquens homo (talk) 12:07, 25 March 2024 (UTC)


 * @Loquens homo Would you mind providing a reliable source to support this translation and/or provide more details about these two offices? I'll be happy to make that edit, but we cannot do that without a source. Pavel Borodin's page also uses the same name.  Ppt91    talk   21:00, 2 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Sure, it is confusing indeed. First, here are these two units, they still exist:
 * - unit in Presidential Administration: http://en.kremlin.ru/structure/administration/departments#department-1006
 * - unit in Presidential Property Management Department:
 * https://udprf.ru/en/content/main-control-directorate
 * https://udprf.ru/en/obshchie-svedeniya/structure#:~:text=Main%20control%20directorate
 * Just to underscore the scope of the difference: the latter is essentially inspector general of one government department (the one in charge of e.g. president's residents, transportation, etc.). The former is inspector general for the entirety of Russian federal government.
 * Next, note that, since 1993 or 1995, Presidential Property Management Department is not part of the Presidential Administration; it's a separate federal agency instead: https://udprf.ru/en#:~:text=It%20became%20an%20independent%20federal%20executive%20body%20governed%20by%20the%20President%20of%20the%20Russian%20Federation. Borodin was its head until 2000.
 * Also note that the unit in Presidential Administration had an adjective "Main" in its name in 1996-2004 (i.e. units in two different agencies had identical names), but [[:ru:Управления_администрации_Президента_Российской_Федерации#%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B5_%D1%83%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B0_%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%A4%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8:~:text=%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B0%20%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9%20%D0%A4%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8.-,%D0%A3%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%BE%D0%BC%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B0%20%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9%20%D0%A4%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8%20%D0%BE%D1%82%2029%20%D1%8F%D0%BD%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%8F%201996%C2%A0%D0%B3.%20%E2%84%96%C2%A0117%20%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B5,%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B9%20%D0%90%D0%B4%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B0%20%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9%20%D0%A4%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8%20%D0%B2%D0%BA%D0%BB%D1%8E%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BE%20%D0%9A%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B5%20%D1%83%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B0%20%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9%20%D0%A4%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8.,-%D0%97%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%86%D0%B5%D0%B2%20%D0%92%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%20%D0%AF%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87|lost it since]]. That's probably is the key source of confusion:
 * - Putin did work (in 1996-97) at Presidential Property Management Department (as Borodin's deputy)
 * - Putin worked (in 1997-98) at the Main Control Directorate of the Presidential Administration (as the chief of directorate) at the time when it had an identical name to the unit of Presidential Property Management Department.
 * Link to official bio.
 * (And on top of all that, there are translation issues, for example English page of Presidential Property Management Department is Directorate of the President of the Russian Federation, while on its webpage it is called the Administrative Directorate of the President of the Russian Federation.)
 * It is important, because Presidential Property Management Department, while influential, is not set up to be a political organization that exercises power. All units of Presidential Administration are exercising power, so Putin's move from the former to the latter was a move to a more political and more powerful job. Loquens homo (talk) 19:27, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 April 2024
Kindly insert/change the initial description at the top of the page to reflect that Vladimir Putin is a “genocidal tyrant dictator” between the description “politician” and “former intelligence officer”. 120.136.57.237 (talk) 07:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. — Czello (music) 07:31, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Putin's connection to New Zealand
'''I have been researching this story for several years. '''

Putin's presence in New Zealand as a KGB agent in the 1980s has not been corroborated through any government records that I am aware of, as the article claims (and there is no evidence of this in any of the sources cited). David Lange did not allege Putin "served" in New Zealand; the source cited for this is former Waitakere Mayor Bob Harvey's recollection of a flippant remark Lange made to him decades ago about whether Putin had visited New Zealand as a young man (“Of course, why wouldn’t he?”).

On Bob Harvey's claims:

Two of the three sources cited in this section relate to the unfounded claims of Bob Harvey that first appeared in Metro magazine and were later reported by other media outlets such as the New Zealand Herald. I have researched all the claims in the article and found most to be false, such as his speaking to a judoka in Wellington who claimed to have trained with Putin in a dojo on Cuba Street (there has never been a judo club on Cuba Street and I have found no record of the man he claims to have spoken to, a "Jako Milne", ever existing). The "eyewitness accounts" the Wikipedia article cites were mostly made up by Harvey.

I also spoke to Helen Clark (one of, if not the only, person in this story to have actually met Putin) and she roundly rejects all of Harvey's claims, including that Putin had some love interest in her. Harvey, generally, is an unreliable source. He once claimed former Prime Minister Norman Kirk was killed by the CIA.

The third source relates to a book about the expulsion of Soviet diplomat Sergei Budnik and claims a man resembling Putin was in New Zealand at the time, based on photographs and vision from an old television programme. These are available online and that man is in all likelihood not Putin (significantly older and with different facial morphology). Could this section of the article pleased be removed or simply revised to say claims have been made about Putin's possible presence in NZ in the 80s? AidanWellington (talk) 11:31, 6 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I would say so. Ymblanter (talk) 14:05, 6 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Re government records – unsourced, so has been removed from our article.
 * Re David Lange alleging that Putin served in NZ – that is a misrepresentation of the Harvey source, so has been removed.
 * Re the 3rd source (the non-Harvey one) for the shoe salesman sentence – does not mention shoe salesman, so has been removed.
 * Re the Harvey article's claim about "the legendary Jako Milne, who had at one time held multiple judo and boxing titles" and the dojo in Cuba St. Surely there would be some record somewhere of such a person or dojo, but I also haven't found any. See also the reddit thread linked below.
 * Bob Harvey claims that Putin was a KGB agent "based in Germany and Singapore. One of his roles was to report on Australia, New Zealand and Fiji." Do other sources support any of this apart from the Germany bit?
 * Re the man at the inquiry into the sinking of MS Mikhail Lermontov. The man is in this photo, where he is identified as Boris Ashikhmin, who acted as an interpreter. There is video footage of the man in part 9 of this TV documentary. The rest of this paragraph is based on the Bernie Napp ref below: Tom Broadmore, the NZ lawyer who appears next to Ashikhmin in the photo, "said Mr Ashikhmin worked for two years in Wellington at the Soviet Fisheries Office. 'Although anything is possible, I would be absolutely flabbergasted if that was Putin in disguise.'" Former Prime Minister David Lange was asked "does he think Mr Ashikhmin is Mr Putin? 'I don't think for a moment it was ever Mr Putin, (but) I suppose in those days anything was possible.'" Then Transport Minister Richard Prebble said "Mr Ashikhmin could have been a KGB agent, but the possibility it was Mr Putin was almost nil. 'This is loony conspiracy number 215 (on the sinking of the Mikhail Lermontov).'" Oxford University professor Christopher Andrew, author of a 1999 book on the KGB, said KGB agents always travelled under assumed names. Mr Putin was, however, unlikely to have been in New Zealand in 1986 because he was working, apparently, in Germany at the time." "Foreign Affairs and Trade Ministry spokesman James Funnell said that 'while we agree it is a Putin lookalike, it's not him'.
 * See also this reddit thread with opinions about the Harvey article.
 * Bob Harvey is an entertaining storyteller, but his article and radio interview are parts anecdotal, speculative, dubious, or based on men's memories 15–35 years later. I don't think he is a reliable source, and think the whole paragraph should be removed from the article. Nurg (talk) 08:02, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Deciding what we will change his portrait to after his death
I know this is too early to discuss, as Putin is in good health currently, but I think we can get ahead of the curve and discuss pictures that are appropriate to use in the infobox following his death. There are a quite a large number of photos on Commons (mostly from Kremlin.ru).

Suggestions on what to change the portrait to after his death are open and you can also reply to designate your support for using that image. I'm not exactly sure which one best would represent him, but I think that this talk page would be the best place to find people who would have an idea about what photo would be best. Duke of New Gwynedd (talk &#124; contrib.) 12:46, 12 May 2024 (UTC)


 * This is too early to discuss.  Acroterion   (talk)   12:53, 12 May 2024 (UTC)


 * (ec) Putin's health is ambiguous at best; it's believed that his bodily waste is collected to prevent the west from collecting and studying it to determine his health. There is no reason to think his death is imminent, though, so isn't this premature? 331dot (talk) 12:56, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 May 2024
Could someone change the p in President in the intro to a capital P. AutisticAndrew (talk) 10:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please see Joe Biden for instance. M.Bitton (talk) 19:10, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

............
Don't think it should mention stalin in the lead HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 10:18, 30 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Why? — Czello (music) 10:19, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Because he shouldn't be mentioned. He was a disgusting dictator that had like 100 million people killed, more than Hitler. And Stalin has nothing to do with Putin, Putin wasn't a Soviet dictator like Stalin. This this should be removed instantly HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 21:02, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @HumansRightsIsCool The comment relates to how long each was leader of Russia. How evil Stalin was is irrelevant. — Czello (music) 21:42, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Stalin wasnt even the leader of Russia he was the leader of the Soviet Union, a different country. Mentioning Stalin is stupid. HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 21:52, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, it does say "Russian or Soviet" as there is a great deal of overlap there. — Czello (music) 07:14, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Can you please just remove it or put it somewhere else in the page where its not the lead. This is bothering me. It makes this perfect page terrible HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 07:28, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @HumansRightsIsCool It's notable and relevant information, don't see why it shouldn't be in the lead. This seems to just be an WP:IDONTLIKEIT argument. — <i style="color:#8000FF">Czello</i> (<i style="color:#8000FF">music</i>) 07:45, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Because it is. And when I reach 500 edits I'm going to remove it HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 04:43, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Russian and Soviet are two different nationalities, why is Stalin even mentioned when he was the leader of a whole different country 80 years ago. This has nothing to do with Putin. The person that made that edit probably wants to promote Stalin on this article because Putin is a popular guy and the communist wants to promote mass murderer Stalin on dictator putins article HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 04:54, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * With this attitude, you will be blocked or topic banned much sooner. Ymblanter (talk) 06:02, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Wdym "much sooner", you were going to ban me later? HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 08:06, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Look, you are basically saying "I do not care about consensus, I may not currently edit the article, but as soon as I have a technical ability, I will". Users who reason in this way get blocked, whether it would be before this particular edit of after it. Ymblanter (talk) 10:15, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Not without consensus. — <i style="color:#8000FF">Czello</i> (<i style="color:#8000FF">music</i>) 08:14, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Whatever I say, no matter how convincing I am, you won't agree with me because we have different types of mindsets HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 11:32, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * on Wikipedia we do not remove information just because someone finds it offensive. If you think that Stalin should not be mentioned in this article you must explain how and convince other editors that the information is not relevant. Saying that Russia and the Soviet Union are different countries is not convincing anyone, you will have to come up with a better reason. If you have no such reason then you must stop asking, before someone accuses you of editing tendentiously, of not being here to build an encyclopedia, or just blocks you from editing. Thank you. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 13:41, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Crimes
These are the crimes Vladimir Putin has committed: war crimes, mass murder, attempted genocide, mass destruction of property, mass kidnapping, mass child abductions, persecution, oppression, human rights violations, invasion, discrimination, corruption, forced displacement, crimes against humanity, espionage, electoral fraud, propaganda, state terrorism, mass censorship, abuse of power, tyranny, torture, animal cruelty, pollution, organized crime, violations of international law, unlawful imprisonments, abuse, child abuse, brainwashing, coercion, extortion, looting, illegal annexations, mutilation, forced disappearances, assault, hate crimes, fraud 187.161.132.88 (talk) 21:47, 30 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Yeah, but he never claimed porn-star hush-money was business expenses. So he can't be all bad. And not sure about the animal cruelty. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:21, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * hey Stalin is mentioned in the lead. Can someone remove that HumansRightsIsCool (talk) 05:02, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

2021 Infobox portrait consensus
How come "About this talk page" says that there was a consensus that the 2021 image is to be used on the infobox, but the infobox does not use this image? I figure that the notes in the talk page should be changed. Nursultan Malik(talk) 13:54, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Crimes and criminal investigations!
Where is any information about the crimes of this inhuman piece of filth? 46.133.151.16 (talk) 21:49, 16 July 2024 (UTC)