Talk:Wei Hsueh-kang

Taiwan vs. Republic of China
Taiwan is currently the common name for the Republic of China, and depending on who you ask, has been since different points in the latter half of the 20th century. Taiwan was not the common name for the Republic of China before its government fled to Taiwan in 1949, as its troops still had control over large parts of the mainland. Wei Hsueh-kang has never set foot in Taiwan and there is no source given that he ever had or retained ROC citizenship after fleeing to Myanmar as a child. The U.S. Department of State lists him as a Chinese citizen. Furthermore, the common name policy does not mean every mention of the Republic of China should be changed to Taiwan; you need to be careful and nuanced with the context because like mentioned earlier, Taiwan was not always the common name for the Republic of China. Yue 🌙 20:44, 8 September 2022 (UTC)


 * The page moving discussion on Taiwan clearly states Taiwan to be the common name of ROC since 1949, not since 1990. That said, the main lifespan of Wei happens during that time, in other word, he is an overseas Taiwanese in the sense of WP:COMMONNAME from 1949 to 2022 and he used to be a Chinese and an overseas Chinese until 1949, when he was too young to have any notability. The same argument works for Ma Ying-jeou. If Wei is described as a Chinese instead of Taiwanese then Ma also has to be. Frankly I don't like that WP move but since it has already happened one has to hold the same criteria for all. The only potential argument to call Ma a Taiwanese while Wei a Chinese that I can expect is that one prefer Ma to Wei and prefer ROC to PRC so that one wants to associate "good" to "good", which would violate NPOV. I would be happy if there is a change on the unified Wikipedia policy so that Wei (and Ma) would be considered Chinese, but as for now I have to strictly follow Wikipedia policy.
 * The United States government does not even recognize ROC, so that source is totally irrelevant. If Palau government says Wei is a PRC citizen it can be used here, otherewise kne still has to use non governmental source, such as the original one. Also of cource the PRC also maintains that all Taiwanese, including Wei, to be PRC citizens, but unless we prepare to apply that new criteria to all Taiwanese biography one has to keep the same current criteria for all biographies. --173.68.165.114 (talk) 21:12, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Firstly, nobody mentioned the year 1990 and nothing major happened to Wei Hsueh-kang in that year. Secondly, this has nothing to do with people's perceptions of the PRC or ROC, or whether or not one considers Wei Hsueh-kang a "good" or "bad" person. The relevant policy is MOS:CONTEXTBIO. Ma Ying-jeou was born in Hong Kong but moved to Taiwan, hence his description as "a Hong Kong-born Taiwanese politician". Wei Hsueh-kang was born in mainland China and moved to Myanmar. Ma is not described as a Taiwanese politician by sole virtue of his ROC citizenship, but because reliable sources describe him as such as a result of the historical context he's in. No reliable source describes Wei Hsueh-kang as Taiwanese because he has never lived in Taiwan. If you really have an issue with Wei being described as "Chinese" because you for some reason think whoever chose that wording did so with intent related to the PRC-ROC dispute, then that descriptor should be removed entirely as there no reliable sources in the article at present that describe him as having either PRC or ROC citizenship. I.e., the solution would then be just "Wei Hsueh-kang is a business tycoon, drug trafficker, and military commander of the United Wa State Army." By your own argument it would make more sense to describe him as Burmese since his citizenship is not well documented at present and the only place he's been in for 95 percent of his life is Myanmar. Yue 🌙 22:49, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The difference between 1990 and 1949 is crucial because when it's 1949, Wei's whole life since he have memory, his whole career and his whole personality was made during the time he is a Taiwanese. I believe you probably need to learn more about the Taiwanese nationality law. Ma is a Taiwanese citizen at birth. He has never been "naturalized" to Taiwan (ROC). Otherwise he is not eligible to become the president (Per Article 20 of 《總統副總統選舉罷免法》, "回復中華民國國籍、因歸化取得中華民國國籍、大陸地區人民或香港、澳門居民經許可進入臺灣地區者，不得登記為總統、副總統候選人. "). Chai Trong-rong even explicitly questioned Ma's birth place and spreaded disinformation that Ma was not born in Hong Kong, which brought a lot of political debate in Taiwan. So your narrative does not objectively reflect the reality. Ma is a Taiwanese due to exactly the same reason Wei is, and Ma has been a Taiwanese since he was in Hong Kong, albeit none of them have been to the island of Taiwan at that time (thus your other argument also doesn't hold). Of course, the PRC maintains that Ma (and Wei, and all other Taiwanese) to be PRC citizens. Both Ma and Wei maintained close cultural ties with Taiwan even though they had never been to the Free Area of the Republic of China by then. Wei is definitely not a Burmese (Myanmar has the strictest nationality law in the world, and the entire UWSA thing you mentioned below was not relavent because Wa State considered itself a part of Myanmar but the central government of Myanmar did not grant Wa State authority rights to grant Wei a Burmese citizenship, so even if he is a Wa official he's still an alien Wa official), and he is definitely not stateless (he got his nationality by birth and ROC didn't revoke it till now), he is just one of the 23 million people that have both PRC and ROC nationality, which, according to the unified Wikipedia narrative, only the modern-day-ROC, aka Taiwanese, nationality is recognized (as he has never walked onto the land of PRC since its establishment), unless in Wikipedia we depict all Taiwanese to be PRC citizen. --173.68.165.114 (talk) 04:05, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
 * As the only difference between the two Han Taiwanese Ma and Wei is: Ma was born in the Taiwanese province of Kwangtung while Wei was born in the Taiwanese province of Yunnan, there is really no other way to explain the Wikipedian narrative difference except for an potentially unconscious intent to disadvantage the PRC. I do not have any problem with Wei being described as "Chinese" (I prefer to call both Ma and Wei Chinese), but I do have an issue with only Wei being described as "Chinese", I do have an issue with any conscious or unconscious intent to demonize China due to one's hate, to select the wording "Chinese" or "Taiwanese" whenever it's convenient to one's narrative. This is not a joke: any Southeast Asian figure who has committed some antihumane crime is label as a "Chinese" in notable location in English Wikipedia as long as he has 1/8 Han Chinese blood, however a "freedom fighter" in Southeast Asian, even with half or full Han Chinese heritage, would be labelled in his domicile country in the headline with his Chinese identity mentioned in the 7th line of the 9th paragraph, or even unmentioned. Again, I have absolutely no problem with calling an 1/8 Han criminal a "Chinese criminal", but I do have big issue with the use of the word "Chinese" whenever it's convenient to one's narrative, the typical phenomenon in English Wikipedia. --173.68.165.114 (talk) 04:54, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Wei is unlikely to be a PRC citizen if you take the words of the Communist Party of Burma at face value. From an The Irrawaddy article in 2003:
 * "But a source from the Communist Party of Burmese (CPB) and [sic] with close ties to the UWSA believes Wei may be under house arrest. He cited Wei's souring relations with top junta leaders and his support for extending the drug eradication deadline in Wa State from 2005 to 2007. On the weekend, the Wa reportedly decided it would be impossible to meet the 2005 deadline in the prevailing economic and political climate. A few months ago, Wei reportedly criticized the regime to his fellow Wa officers. A UWSA officer told the source that Wei disappeared after a July 7 emergency meeting at the UWSA headquarters in Panghsang. The Chinese and Americans would certainly welcome the arrest if it did indeed occur, said the CPB source, who added that Chinese authorities have reportedly banned Wei from entering China because they believe he was formerly associated with the Taiwanese."
 * Yue 🌙 23:06, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The fact that PRC "banned Wei from entering China because they believe he was formerly associated with the Taiwanese" explicitly indicates that the PRC considered Wei one of the 23 million PRC citizens associates to the Taipei regime, commonly known as solely Taiwanese in Wikipedia (just like there are a billion mainland Taiwanese citizens associated to the Peiping regime, commonly known as Chinese in Wikipedia). Talking about the entry ban, there are a number of overseas mainland PRC citizens who are banned to enter the mainland area of the PRC, not to mention a overseas Taiwanese Chinese in Myanmar (Wei Hsueh-kang). --173.68.165.114 (talk) 04:14, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source in English or Chinese stating that Wei Hsueh-kang is Taiwanese? I only care about policy as stated, not your political arguments and assumptions about this person (i.e. That he has Taiwanese (ROC) citizenship). "Formerly associated with the Taiwanese" does not mean he is Taiwanese. Emigrating from mainland China when mainland China was under the rule of the Republic of China does not mean he is Taiwanese. WP:COMMONNAME does mean what you think it means, and I am tired of participating in a discussion where you ignore everything I bring up and messily restate your non-policy-based points. "Just like there are a billion mainland Taiwanese citizens associated to the Peiping [sic] regime"... I am seriously wondering if I am feeding a troll right now. I am going to start dispute resolution by asking for a third opinion. Yue 🌙 06:27, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

"mainland Taiwanese citizens": my typo. Should be mainland Taiwanese nationals. The one billion people probably have no citizenship but simply considered nationals per Taiwanese nationality law (and of course, they can no longer vote since 1990). It would be more accurately called mainland ROC nationals, but per WP:COMMONNAME it becomes "mainland Taiwanese nationals" (just like ROC nationality law became Taiwanese nationality law).

I have directly responsed to most of your inquiries, espcially the "No reliable source describes Wei Hsueh-kang as Taiwanese because he has never lived in Taiwan" one. You speculation that Taiwanese nationality is based on whether one has lived in Taiwan is entirely unfunded and contradictory to what is written in corresponding Wikipedia articles. One can definitely say "No reliable source describes Wei Hsueh-kang with either a Taiwanese household or a Taiwanese household because he has never lived in Taiwan nor in Taiwan". However, questioning whether he has Taiwanese nationality would be a WP:snowball in the hell unless the Taipei Authority explicitly revoke his nationality or he explicitly relinquish his nationality (none of these have ever happened per any reliable source). I sincerely recommend you to read a little about the Taiwanese nationality law (and maybe national without household registration) in order not to put extraordinary claims like that (the jus soli is concerning entire China, including Yunnan, where Wei was born - that is not a "political argument" or assumption [sic] but a well established fact stated that article). That is why I mentioned Ma, who is not a naturalized Taiwanese citizen, but a Taiwanese national by birth, there.

By putting solely "Thailand (1985–2001)" in the infobox you indicated Wei to be stateless before 1985 and after 2001. That is misleading and thus not in accordance with the Wikipedia's policy on infobox. --173.68.165.114 (talk) 07:03, 9 September 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't see how the Wikipedia snowball clause is in any way relevant here. Lots of discussions on Wikipedia over a various variety of topics have shown that the prevailing consensus is that a person's nationality cannot be assumed. As there is lack of reliable sources on the topic, the article simply should not state the person's nationality. I also don't see why the article shouldn't describe him Chinese, as long as it's evident from context that it's referring to the ethnicity, not nationality (i.e. Han Chinese, which constitute the majority population of both PRC and Taiwan). I'm reverting to Yue's latest revision. --Paul_012 (talk) 11:21, 10 September 2022 (UTC)