Talk:Western Egyptian Bedawi Arabic

Libyan Arabic?
This page used to redirect to Libyan Arabic. Indeed, according to Ethnologue, "Western Egyptian Bedawi Spoken Arabic" is an alternate name for Libyan Arabic. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 20:54, 1 January 2023 (UTC)


 * The dialect is indeed similar to Eastern Libyan Arabic and usually treated in sources alongside it or as interchangeable. But the Bedouin dialect specific to Western Egypt has been described in reliable sources, for example Matar 1967, which has been cited in many studies on this dialect and Bedouin dialects in general. I think at the very least Eastern Libyan Arabic should receive its own treatment, as it has had several studies regarding its peculiarities (https://www.jstor.org/stable/43513460) Coolcat108 (talk) 21:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm struggling to find sources that discuss "Western Egyptian Bedawi Arabic"--the cited sources that are accessible to me make no mention of it (some of them don't even mention "Bedawi" or "Bedouin"!). Its distinction from other neighboring forms of Arabic seems poorly substantiated at this time. signed,Rosguill talk 22:05, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
 * FYI: Ethnologue cites these sources (can't access it) and this map. It also calls it "Sulaimitian Arabic".
 * Christophe Pereira writes: "Apropos western Egyptian varieties, Peter Behnstedt and Manfred Woidich provide several maps and atlases (Behnstedt 1998a; Behnstedt and Woidich 2005; Wilmsen and Woidich 2007)."
 * References:
 * Behnstedt, P., 1998a. La frontière orientale des parlers maghrébins en Egypte. In: J. Aguadé, P. Cressier, and A. Vicente, eds. Peuplement et arabisation au Maghreb occidental: Dialectologie et histoire. Madrid, Zaragoza: Casa de Velázquez, Universidad de Zaragoza, 85–96.
 * Behnstedt, P. and Woidich, M., 2005. Einführung in die arabische Dialektgoegraphie. Leiden: Brill.
 * Wilmsen, D. and Woidich, M., 2007. Egypt. In: K. Versteegh, M. Eid, A. Elgibali, M. Woidich, A. Zaborski, eds. Encyclopedia of Arabic language and linguistics, vol. 2. Leiden: Brill, 1–12.
 * a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 22:40, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The Arabic Language, p. 208: The dialects of the western parts of Egypt form the boundary with the dialects of the Maghreb not only in the Delta, but also in the western oases. The dialects of the latter (Farafra, Baḥariyya, Daḫla and Ḫarga) have become known through the publications of Woidich (1993, 2000, 2002). Since they exhibit some West Arabic traits, it has been surmised that they are in some way related to the Arabic dialects of the Maghreb group. then p. 213: In spite of the linguistic diversity of North Africa, it may be regarded as one dialect area because of the common features shared by these dialects, which set them apart from the rest of the Arabophone world. There is one morphological feature in the verbal system that has served to classify the Maghreb dialects as one group: the prefix n- for the first-person singular in the imperfect verb (cf. above, Chapter 10, p. 178), for instance, Moroccan Arabic nǝktǝb ‘I write’/nkǝtbu ‘we write’. The boundary between the n- dialects and the Eastern dialects lies somewhere in western Egypt. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 22:54, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Dialects of Arabic, p. 529: The dialects of Egypt can be subdivided into rural, urban, and Bedouin dialects. As stated earlier, the Nile Delta, in a sense, forms a transitional area between the larger western and eastern groups of Arabic dialects. Bedouin dialects are spoken in the western Delta and farther west (for example by the Awla:d ʕAli tribe along the Mediterranean coast) and in the eastern Delta and farther east and p. 530: From the bend in the Nile at Qena and farther south, as well as in the Bahariyya and Farafra oases in the Western Desert of Egypt, there are several locations with the western paradigm for the first person singular and plural in the imperfect: niktib “I write” and nikt(i) bu “we write,” or the “intermediate” paradigm aktib (sg.) and nikt(i)bu (pl.) (Behnstedt and Woidich 1985). Dialectologists disagree on whether these paradigms were “imported” into Egypt by speakers of Maghrebi dialects who arrived from the west, or actually originated in Egypt (Woidich 1993; Behnstedt 1998; Owens 2003). The possibility of their being of pre‐ Islamic origin cannot be ruled out either (Manfred Woidich, p.c.).
 * tl;dr: it seems that there are reliable sources, although they don't call it "Western Egyptian Bedawi" but "Bedouin dialects spoken in Western Egypt" for instance. However, the name "Western Egyptian Bedawi" is confirmed by both Ethnologue and Glottolog. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 22:58, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
 * It is rather unfortunate that two of the main sources for this dialect Matar 1967 and Behnstedt&Woidich 1987 are in Arabic and German respectively, and are inaccessible online. But having accessible English sources isn’t a requirement for notability, and furthermore Matar 1967 is further cited in Rosenhouse 1984, and here is an excerpt from this book (p. 6) discussing the dialect:
 * “Further west lies Egypt. In the Sharqiyya province there are many Bedouin features in the spoken dialects (Abul-Fadl (1961)). From Woidich and Behnstedt’s articles concerning Egyptian dialects, where Bedouin dialects are mentioned only by the way, as well as from Matar (1967) and Hartmann (1892), we learn that the Bedouins who live in Egypt, to the East and to the West of the Nile and its Delta, have different linguistic features. Those in the Eastern Desert are more related to the Syro-Palestinian dialects, while those of the west — il-Bihera, Sahil Maryut, Fayyum and along the western bank of the Nile towards the south — are more related to the Libyan dialects.”
 * Rosenhouse, J. (1984). The bedouin arabic dialects: General problems and a close analysis of North Israel Bedouin dialects. Harrassowitz. Coolcat108 (talk) 23:05, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
 * My sense based on those cited excerpts is that it would be more appropriate to include information on this dialect as part of a broader article on the continuum of dialects across the region. To do otherwise seems to give it a level of distinction and standardization that is not backed up by the sources. signed,Rosguill talk 23:07, 1 January 2023 (UTC)
 * What would be that broader article? Libyan Arabic? Libyan Arabic already says: The Eastern variety extends beyond the borders to the east and share the same dialect with far Western Egypt with between 90,000 and 402,000 speakers in Egypt. But even if we add a subsection there about "Eastern Libyan Arabic"/"Western Egyptian Arabic" this section may at some point be big enough to justify its own article. So I don't see the problem with the current article. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 11:06, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Wilmsen, D. and Woidich, M., 2007. Egypt. In: K. Versteegh, M. Eid, A. Elgibali, M. Woidich, A. Zaborski, eds. Encyclopedia of Arabic language and linguistics, vol. 2. Leiden: Brill, 1–12.: In the Western Desert, in addition to the primarily Berberophone Siwa, there are four Arabophone oases, viz. from north to south, ilBaTMariya, alFaràfira, adDàxila, and ilXàrja (see Map 2), whose dialects have been investigated in the last 30 years (see Behnstedt and Woidich 1982; Woidich 1998). Long isolated, they only became accessible in the 1970s. Owing to this isolation and the continuous influx of small groups from outside, they offer a wealth of strange developments. In particular, they display features that connect them both to Middle Egypt and to Western (Libyan) Arabic as possible substrata or adstrata. For diverging views on this subject see Woidich (1993), Behnstedt (1998): the former relates them more to Middle Egypt on structural and phonological evidence, the latter to a North African substrate – at least the two northern ones – on morphological and lexical grounds. No single major discriminant shared by all four dialects, which would separate them as a single entity from the dialects of the Nile Delta or the Nile Valley, could be detected to date. They differ markedly from one another, and even within an oasis the individual villages display distinctive features and can be grouped together into subgroups (see above). [...] There can be no doubt that Western and Eastern Arabic meet in the oases and that their dialects display features from both sides, including interactions between them that produce rather strange developments (see Woidich 1995–1997, 1997a).
 * So even integrating this article into Libyan Arabic would be contentious as scholars disagree about the classification of these varieties (part of Egyptian Arabic or Libyan Arabic?). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 11:13, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 * From Souag
 * “The form of Arabic currently predominant throughout Matrūh Province and eastern Libya, and spoken natively by the Shihaybät tribesmen inhabiting some of the small villages of Marâqî about twenty kilometres west of Siwa proper, is a Sulaymi Bedouin dialect of the type documented in Panetta 1943, Matar 1981, Owens 1984, and Behnstedt & Woidich (1987: 244ff.), with typical characteristics such as the g reflex of Arabic qãf, the gahawa-syndrome (insertion of short a after laryngeals), and the preservation of feminine plural agreement marking”
 * Note that the dialects of the Western Egyptian Oases do not belong to this group, as Behnstedt & Woidich 1987 treat them in a separate volume from the Bedouin dialects. Coolcat108 (talk) 12:30, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah you're right (see map). So there's no problem then. And I removed the sources I had just added about Oases varieties. There's also a nice map (34 Übergangsgebiet Typ 3 (Vorfeld): maghrebinische Isoglossen im Nildelta) p. 103 in Arabische Dialektgeographie : eine Einführung that we could recreate here. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:46, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 * There's also a great map here (source) calling these varieties "Libyan 'bedouin' dialects". a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:34, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 * @Coolcat108, Versteegh writes: The Western Bedouin dialects are spoken all over North Africa. Usually they are divided into two groups: the dialects of the area in which the Banū Sulaym settled (Tunisia, Libya and western Egypt); and those that belong to the territory of the Banū Hilāl (western Algeria and Morocco). (p. 187) The dialects of the western parts of Egypt form the boundary with the dialects of the Maghreb not only in the Delta (p. 208) Should we mention the Banu Sulaym and the fact that Western Egyptian Bedawi dialects form the boundary between Maghrebi Arabic and Mashriqi Arabic? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:51, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The division of North African Bedouin dialects into Hilal and Sulaym is not uncontroversial, see this article https://www.academia.edu/36792764/La_classification_des_parlers_bédouins_du_Maghreb_revisiter_le_classement_traditionnel
 * “Reste, me semble-t-il, une question, celle de la valeur de la distinction entre parler hilaliens vs sulaymites vs ma'qiliens. S'il existe bien des groupes de parlers plus ou moins différences et s'il est nécessaire de leur attribuer un nom, je ne suis pas sûr que ces trois appellations d'origine socio-historique soient d'une précision réelle et donc, d'un véritable secours.”
 * Additionally, regarding the Cyrenaican dialects:
 * “A la différence des parlers de la Tripolitaine qui se situent vraiment dans la continuité des parlers tunisiens, ceux de Cyrénaïque présentent une certaine proximité avec les parlers orientaux, en particulier du point de vue de la structure syllabique et de l'existence, entre autres, du phénomène 'gahawa'” Coolcat108 (talk) 18:40, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 * We can (should?) mention both views then. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 22:06, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
 * 123 66.131.215.107 (talk) 02:50, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Pages
@Coolcat108: could you please add page numbers? Arabic Historical Dialectology is 447-page long for instance, so we can't just cite the whole book to back one claim in one sentence. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 15:04, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Other tribes
Land and Identity among Awlad ‘Ali Bedouin: Egypt’s: "Perhaps two-thirds of the total rural and urban populations (or about 140,000 people) are Bedouin from the Awlad #Ali, Jumi#at, and other tribes or clans." => Do the Jumi#at and other tribes also speak this variety? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 15:42, 2 January 2023 (UTC)