Talk:Windward Islands

unsigned and undated comment (pre-June 3, 2013)
Definitely need to note that the distinction between Windward and Leeward is somewhat obscure, especially since Wikipedia right now lists Martinique in both categories!

Hurricanes
Ivan and Frances made landfall here. --Patricknoddy 13:13, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)User:Patricknoddy --Patricknoddy 13:13, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)User talk:Patricknoddy 9:12 September 11, 2004 (EDT)

The map and island listing seem incorrect. Contrary to wikipedia, according to several other sources on the web, Trinidad & Tobago and Barbados are NOT part of this group, and Dominica is.

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/gb-windw.html http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/W/Windwrds.asp http://www.britannica.com/ebi/article-9340617 http://countrystudies.us/caribbean-islands/56.htmMike 17:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Go ahead and fix it.--Mike18xx 17:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I would, but don't know how to create a comparable map. I wouldn't want the map and text to be at odds. Mike 19:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If the text AND the image are BOTH in error, then both should be fixed. For the time being, remove the pic, or find a suitable government/public-domain mag image and photoshop in a red box as you deem approrpiate, upload & etc.--Mike18xx 23:54, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Trinidad, Tobago, Barbados?
Barbados and Trinidad and Tobago in the Windwards? Definitely not. Guettarda 14:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Just because Barbados and T&T may not be joined with the OECS or WINBAN or any other political-economic organization associated with the term "Windward" doesn't mean that they are not geographically Windward (I'm not saying that the definitely are though). The term Windward simply means the trade winds hit those areas first (as opposed to the Leewards which are drier because they get the trade winds after most of the precipitation has been dumped on the Windwards - so the Leewards are in the rain shadow). And even if those islands are not considered part of the Windwards today, doesn't mean they were never considered to be Windwards ever. Even Encyclopedia Britannica says that the two are usually not considered part of the group - which means that sometimes they are or were (see: http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9077195/Windward-Islands and http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article-9382813/Lesser-Antilles or http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9382813). In addition Dominica is sometimes classified as Leeward (see http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9369947) and sometimes classified as Windward (see http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-9382813). And the classification of the Virgin Islands as being Leeward is despite the fact that geologically they are attached to Puerto Rico (and by extension the Greater Antilles as opposed to the Lesser Antilles) (see http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9047612/Leeward-Islands). More confusion can be generated if we take into account the use of the term Windwards and Leewards by other languages such as Dutch. Generally it seems that Martinique, St. Lucia, St. Vincent, the Grenadines and Grenada are always considered as the Windward Islands. Anguilla, St. Barthélemy, St. Martin, Saba, St. Eustatius, St. Kitts, Nevis, Antigua, Barbuda, Redonda, Montserrat and Guadeloupe are always considered as the Leewards Islands. The rest of the islands are never as clear-cut: The Virgin Islands are always considered as Leeward Islands although they are geologically attached to Puerto Rico and thus the Greater Antilles; Dominica is sometimes considered Leeward and sometimes considered Windward; while Barbados and Trinidad and Tobago are usually not considered Windward, but at times are. It would probably be good to include the fact that the classification of the islands into groups is not precise and to include a note on the islands where classification in not a dead-certainty. That way, if some poor reader happens across a source claiming Trinidad and Tobago as being part of the Windwards, they won't be confused when they come to Wikipedia. Or if some reader finds one reference claiming that Dominica is Windward and another reference claiming Dominica as Leeward, then they can come to Wikipedia for clarity.72.27.89.45 20:24, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * In the recent court arbitration between Barbados and Trinidad & Tobago over their maritime boundaries, during the course of their opening arguments before the UN court they clarified that Barbados and T&T were not in the Windward Islands. As seen Here (PDF) It was news to me too...

Note this is on PDF page number 15.

1. Relevant Geography

42. The islands of Trinidad and Tobago lie off the northeast coast of South America. At their closest, Trinidad and Venezuela are a little over 7 nautical miles (“nm”) apart. Seventy nm to the northwest, '''there starts a chain of rugged volcanic islands known collectively as the Windward Islands, made up of Grenada, The Grenadines, St. Vincent, St. Lucia, Martinique, Dominica, and others. Barbados is not part of that chain of islands, but sits east of them. Collectively, all the aforementioned islands, and others that are farther north, make up the Lesser Antilles Islands.

It then goes on to say...

''' 43. Barbados consists of a single island with a surface area of 441 sq km and a population of approximately 272,200. The island of Barbados is made up of a series of coral terraces resting on a sedimentary base. Barbados is situated northeast of Tobago by 116 nm and nearly 80 nm east of St. Lucia, the closest of the Windward Islands.

44. The Republic of Trinidad and Tobago is made up of the islands of Trinidad, with an area of 4,828 sq km and an approximate population of 1,208,300, and, 19 nm2 to the northeast, the island of Tobago with an area of 300 sq km and an approximate population of 54,100, and a number of much smaller islands that are close to those two main islands. Trinidad and Tobago has declared itself an “archipelagic state” pursuant to provisions of UNCLOS. The islands of Trinidad and Tobago are essentially the eastward extension of the Andean range of South America.

45. East of Trinidad and Tobago, the coast of South America trends in an east-southeasterly direction, first with part of the coast of Venezuela, then the coasts of Guyana, Suriname, and French Guiana. The Windward Islands lie as a string of islands in a south to north orientation starting directly north of the Boca del Dragon, the channel between the northwest corner of the island of Trinidad and the Peninsula de Paria of Venezuela.

CaribDigita (talk) 06:02, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Cheers for posting that, I'm forever reverting editors who add them to this article. Justin talk 13:14, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Another source too the U.S. Library of Congress: "Caribbean Islands -- Chapter 4. The Windward Islands and Barbados" -- "Despite its nineteenth-century ties to the Windward Islands, Barbados differed from its neighbors in several ways. Barbados lies east of the Windwards and is characterized by lowlands, plains, and rolling hills rather than the mountainous terrain of the Windwards. The island also followed a distinct historical path. Barbados was regarded as the most British nation in the Commonwealth Caribbean, a reflection undoubtedly of the uncontested control exercised by the British from 1625 until the granting of independence in 1966. The economic base was different from most of the Windward nations also; tourism had replaced agriculture as the primary foreign exchange earner by the 1970s. Barbados was also distinguished from its neighbors by the maintenance of a standing army. Barbados' political structure, however, was identical to that found in St. Lucia, St. Vincent and the Grenadines, and Grenada. " CaribDigita (talk) 20:49, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


 * So, would it be a good idea if someone clarified this map? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LesserAntillesIslands.pngSophosmoros (talk) 15:24, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Terminology
I don't understand how the Terminology fits the physical reality of northeasterly trade winds, and posted a question about that at Reference desk/Science. &mdash; Sebastian 21:48, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Name and geography
Currently, before any amendments, the entry states:

"The Windward Islands are called such because they were more windward to sailing ships arriving in the New World than the Leeward Islands, given that the prevailing trade winds in the West Indies blow east to west.".

On the face of it, this purported explanation appears to be inconsistent with the Wikipedia entry for Trade Winds and incorrect. It also fails to give a satisfactory explanation of the name Windward Islands and the corresponding name Leeward Islands. Look at the accompanying map. One sees an archipelago in the shape of a crescent, stretching from north to south. The northern half of the crescent is no more easterly than the southern half. So if the trade winds in this zone did blow from the east, they would hit the northerly and the southerly half of the crescent equally, and at the same time, would they not?

The fact of the matter is surely that whilst the Trade Winds blow in general from the east, in the northern hemisphere they blow from the east-north-east (ENE); and in the southern hemisphere they blow from the east-south-east (ESE). Only on the equator do they blow from the east.

In that case, the northern half of the crescent, the Windward Islands, would receive the Trade Winds before the Southern half, the Leeward Islands.

I am therefore changing the entry accordingly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.187.25.55 (talk) 16:00, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

"Name and Geography"
This section is not working. The second paragraph seems to more accurately describe things, but then you're met with the first paragraph which is unclear, namely this part:

"The Windward Islands are called such because they were more windward to sailing ships arriving to the New World than the Leeward Islands"

Without describing the origin of the actual ship, this doesn't make sense. We see the endpoint (arriving to the New World), but we're not given a clear starting point. I guess the implication is "arriving to the New World from the southeast," but I'm not sure people unfamiliar with the areas history would assume that. In fact, even someone who does know originally assumed this line was talking about from Europe, which confused me. It appears the starting point for a ship in how "windward" and "leeward" are defined are ships sailing from somewhere in Africa as opposed to Europe. That needs to be made clear. And, if that's not actually the case, then the whole thing needs to be written. --Criticalthinker (talk) 14:21, 14 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Found this. Does this make more sense?

"Actually, both you and “Caribbean magazine” have it wrong concerning the wind, thing.

Windward means that one sails with the wind to reach it, while leeward means one sails against the wind to reach it, but which wind? You say the Northeast Trade winds (coming from the Northeast), and Caribbean Magazine says the southern trade winds, (coming from the South). The truth is that ships coming from Europe would use the Gulf Stream (ocean current) and the NE trade winds to get to the Caribbean.

The problem is that they would reach the Inter-Tropical Convergence Zone (ITCZ) before reaching the Caribbean, and sail on an East wind (coming from the east) to reach any of the windward islands. Once there, they would have to leave the ITCZ and head North, somewhat against the Northeast trade winds, (but with the aid of the Antilles Current), to get to the leeward islands.

So it is windward with regards to the East winds of the ITCZ, as traveling from Europe, and leeward with regards to the NE trade winds, as continuing travel from the Windward islands."


 * This was kind of the agreement I was coming upon, that the Leewards are named in relation to the Windwards. But, I think what's confusing is that they are now saying that despite the Windwards being leeward coming from either Europe or from Africa, they are using "windward" to actually mean "with the wind," something they don't seem to do when they are naming the Leewards. --Criticalthinker (talk) 11:48, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Honestly, can someone write this opening section more clearly about their naming? The Windward Islands are so named because you get to them from Europe with the wind, and the Leeward Islands are so named because you're sailing against the wind when traveling to them from the Windward Islands. The name section is still written confusingly. --Criticalthinker (talk) 00:57, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

First of all, the above explanation is incorrect. "Windward" does NOT mean "sailing with the wind", it means exactly the opposite. "Windward" is the direction the wind is coming *from*. None of this makes any sense, at all. See here:



If the trade winds are blowing out of the ENE, then a ship sailing East to West from Africa to the Caribbean Islands would need to turn upwind, or windward to reach the Leeward Islands, according to the description of the names as given. The ship would need to turn downwind, or leeward, in order to reach the Windward Islands. Even if the direction of travel were reversed, travelling from West to East, a ship would still need to turn upwind, or windward, to reach the Leeward Islands, and it would need to turn downwind, or leeward, to reach the Windward Islands, if the descriptions given on both these pages are to be believed. Gcvrsa (talk) 03:59, 11 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Yes, I'm genuinely curious if anyone really knows why the islands were named like they were. I find nothing anyhwere on the internet where this is some definitive proof as to how they were named.  ALL of these islands if sailing from Europe or Africa are "downwind" of the trade winds; ALL of these islands are "leeward" of the wind.  And, honestly, because of the line they make, none of these islands are leeward of each other even if the naming was taking direction from within the island chain. --Criticalthinker (talk) 10:42, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 26 October 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) BegbertBiggs (talk) 16:00, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Windward Islands → Windward Islands (Caribbean) – There are 2 groups of islands called Windward; one is in the Caribbean and the other is part of French Polynesia. Georgia guy (talk) 14:59, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose I thought long and hard about this but I am minded to oppose this move. There are other uses of the term but predominantly in the English language it refers to this group of islands.  There is already disambiguation links in place to allow a reader to find the others.  Hence, this seems like a solution looking for a problem. WCM email 15:06, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose, this is the primary topic. 162 etc. (talk) 00:45, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Clearly the primary topic. YorkshireExpat (talk) 16:49, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Very clear primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:38, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose, these Caribbean islands are the primary topic for the term.  Dank Jae  16:10, 31 October 2023 (UTC)