Talk:Women who have sex with women

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 19 August 2019 and 29 November 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ekaufman1998. Peer reviewers: MoetDaPoet, AlisterMcG.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 13:09, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

WP:Student editing
Ekaufman1998, I see issues with what you are crafting in your sandbox. Currently, for example, your sandbox states the following: "WSW have an equal or higher prevalence of STIs and abnormal cervical cells as compared to straight women, yet much lower rates of testing and screening. In a survey of Same sex attracted (SSA) youths, it was found that straight youth were 5 times less likely to have a diagnosed STI than their SSA counterparts. That being said, many medical texts continue to affirm that WSW cannot get STIs through having sex with other women and fail to offer any information on prevention of STI transmission for sex involving two women."

But sources usually do not state that "WSW have an equal or higher prevalence of STIs." In fact, what source states this? And keep in mind that the source should be WP:MEDRS-compliant. I'm also not aware of medical texts these days stating that "WSW cannot get STIs through having sex with other women." What medical sources do state is that WSW have lower risk of STIs, and they stress "significantly lower risk" when speaking of women who only engage in female-to-female sexual activity. When WSW engage in sexual activity with males, this significantly increases their risk of STIs. What medical sources also note is that many WSW are under the impression that they can't get an STI from women or that the lower risk means they should forgo safe sex barrier methods.

This 2010 "Gynaecology E-Book: Expert Consult: Online and Print" source, from Elsevier Health Sciences, states, "Sex between women is often considered a negligible risk for sexually transmitted infections (STIs) (Mercer et al 2007). However, studies suggest that women who report that they have only had sex with women are susceptible; in woman-to-woman transmission, a greater number of sexual exposures are needed, while in heterosexual transmission, a greater number of partners increased the risk of transmission (Bauer and Welles 2001). 'STIs are more common among women who have had previous heterosexual contact or whose female partners have had male sexual partners (Carroll et al 1997, Mercer et al 2007)." This 2015 "Communicating Women's Health: Social and Cultural Norms that Influence Health Decisions" source, from Routledge, page 121, states, "There is a misconception among WSW, and the public in general, that WSW's relatively low rates of sexually transmitted infections (STIs) and low risk for STI transmission from female-to-female sexual contact make it less necessary to address safer sex practices among WSW. In fact, WSW are still at risk for many STIs''', bacterial, viral, and protozoal infections that have long-term health consequences, such as human papillomavirus (HPV), which can be easily transmitted through female-to-female sexual contact (CDC, 2012). Further, most WSW have either a history or current practice of having sex with men; 53% to 99% of WSW in one study reported having had sex with men and had plans to continue the practice in the future, therefore increasing their risk of STI contraction and transmission beyond what would be expected of a woman who has sex exclusively with women (Diamant, Schuster, McGuigan, et al., 1999)." This 2018 "Sexuality Now: Embracing Diversity" source, from Cengage Learning, page 402, states, "While some might believe that women who have sex with women (WSW) are at low, or no, risk for STIs, WSW can, in fact, acquire STIs, along with vaginal infections (Workowski & Berman, 2010). WSW often have fewer sexual partners and engage in less penetrative sex than heterosexual women, which can reduce their overall risk for STIs, but transmission can occur with skin-to-skin contact, oral sex, and vaginal or anal sex using hands, fingers, or sex toys, especially when toys are shared (VanderLan & Vasey, 2008). Bisexual women have a significantly higher rate of STIs than lesbians (Koh et al., 2005; Morrow & Allsworth, 2000; Tao, 2008). It's important for lesbian and bisexual women to obtain yearly pelvic examinations to reduce their risk for adverse complications of STIs (Reiter & McRae, 2014; Tjepkema, 2008).''"

Per WP:MEDRS, and WP:Due weight, I suggest you stick to the type of sources I just quoted. Feel free to use those sources I quoted, of course.

There is too much focus on dental dams in your sandbox. Per WP:Summary style, we should simply have a bit of material on it in this article and point to Dental dam for further detail.

Your "How to use a dental Dam" section is a WP:NOTHOWTO matter. We should not tell readers what they should or should not do. It is easy to reword the text to avoid this. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 08:20, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Hey all! I have some proposed edits below, let me know if you have any feedback.

Under STI Section:

Many doctors consider sex between women to have negligible risk for transmission of STIs and fail to offer any information on prevention of STI transmission for sex involving two women. Although WSW have a lower risk of contracting STIs than their heterosexual counterparts, lower risk is not no risk. Additionally, most WSW have had sex with men at some point in their lifetime. Lesbians are less likely than their heterosexual and bisexual counterparts to get screened for cervical cancer, with some being refused screenings by medical professionals. Yearly pelvic exams are encouraged for WSW to contain the complications of STIs.

Reducing STI transmission risk

There are various ways for WSW to protect against the contraction of STIs during sex, though these methods are not well studied. Dental dams, condoms on sex toys, gloves, and cling wrap are all used as protection during various forms of sex. Most WSW do not use protection during sex, with one study showing 21% even bringing up protection with their partner. Engaging in oral sex without the use of a dental dam or condom is considered a high risk sexual behavior.

Dental Dams

The CDC recommends using a dental dam during oral sex. Additionally, HIV prevention organizations distribute dental dams along with condoms and other safe sex supplies. The FDA has not evaluated dental dams or other barriers for their effectiveness in preventing the spread of STDs, STIs, or HIV. Health educators still widely encourage their use during cunnilingus or anilingus even though dental dams are not widely used by WSW, and are not made with STI prevention in mind. Dental dams are commonly found at STI clinics and on the internet but may be difficult to find at drugstores where condoms are normally sold. Dental Dams may also be made by cutting open a latex condom. Latex condoms are known to be impermeable to pathogens which can cause STIs.

Similarly to condoms, a new dental dam is used for each instance of oral sex to reduce the risk of STI transmission. Dams are placed over the vaginal or anal opening before the start of any sexual activities and not be removed until activities are concluded. To ensure no tears or rips occur, water or silicon based lubricant can be used. Additionally, dams are not stretched out as this could lead to tears. Dental dams are stored in a cool and dry location, and never be used after their printed expiration date.

Condoms

While condoms may not be applicable to many WSW sexual encounters, they are still useful when sex toys are involved. Toys that are shared between partners can spread pathogens even when cleaned. The use of condoms in addition to thorough cleaning can help reduce the risk of transmission via sex toys.

Gloves

In the event of any open sores or wounds on the hands, latex gloves can be used to prevent infection while fingering or fisting. Gloves are placed over the hand before sexual activity ensues and kept on through the duration of the activity.

Cling Wrap

Cling wrap is often posed as an alternative to Dental Dams, but not widely recommended. Cling wrap is used in the same way as dental dams, and much more cost effective. No studies currently exist on the permeability of cling wrap to STI causing pathogens, but it is known to be waterproof.

Omission from research studies

It can be difficult to draw robust and wide reaching conclusions about WSW, since many studies fail to specifically include this group. Little scholarly research is done on WSW relative to other sexual minority groups. Within the research done on WSW groups, there is a further lack of research on bisexual women specifically, with most of the sample being lesbian women. Research on sexual health is generally about pregnancy and heterosexual sex, with the needs of WSW largely ignored. Ekaufman1998 (talk) 14:07, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Ekaufman1998, for ease of talk page format and replying, I removed all of the headings from your proposed content. In the future, simply post a link to your sandbox with an explanation. Thank you for adjusting your content per my statements.


 * Now on to your proposed content:


 * The "than their heterosexual counterparts" piece should be changed to "than their heterosexual and bisexual counterparts." This is per sources I pointed you to on your talk page. The "lower risk is not no risk" piece should be changed to "risk still exists" or "there is still a risk." The "Additionally, most WSW have had sex with men at some point in their lifetime." piece should be changed to "Additionally, most WSW have had sex with men at some point in their lifetime, which significantly increases their risk of infection." This is per sources I pointed you to on your talk page. Why mention that "most WSW have had sex with men at some point in their lifetime" or that most continue to have sex with men if not noting that this significantly increases their risk of infection?


 * The "Reducing STI Transmission Risk" section should be changed to "Safe sex" and it should be a subsection in the "Sexually transmitted infections" section in the article.


 * The "Most WSW do not use protection during sex" piece should explain why they don't. The reason why is stated above and on your talk page. Some of them believe that there is no risk of an STI; others believe that the risk is so small that they needn't bother with protection. The single study piece should be dropped. Source is from 2005.


 * The dental dam, condom, glove and cling wrap material does not need its own subheading. See MOS:Paragraphs. A little bit of material usually does not needs it own subheadings. These subheadings can also make the article look bigger than it is from the table of contents. All of this material fits fine under the "Safe sex" heading without subheadings.


 * The "Omission from Research Studies" heading should be decapitalized. Per MOS:HEAD, we typically use sentence case for headings. So it should be "Omission from research studies." Make sure to decapitalize words like "dental dams" (seen above) as well. There is no reason to state "Dental Dams," for example.


 * When it comes to WP:REFNAMES, it is best to use the name of the author or some name, not numbers.


 * Use page numbers. And for book references, if you can link to a book on Google Books, link to it so that readers can possibly see a preview and verify a piece rather than link to it at worldcat.org.


 * Once you tweak your material per what I stated, feel free to add it. I will further tweak anything that needs tweaking, and likely trade out one or more sources for another. Or cut a piece. For example, your "with most of the sample being lesbian women" seems to contrast other research, which I touched on at your talk page. This is specifically because of so many WSW having sex with men and the higher rate of STI transmission as a result. The fact that "WSW" is used so that sexual identities don't have to be used is also a reason why I'm questioning that piece. That stated, I do know that many women who identify as lesbians have sex with men; this is why some sources specifically state "self-identified lesbians." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:54, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

___

Opinion versus Facts
On the whole, women tend to work through developing a self-concept internally, or with other women with whom they are intimate. Women (heterosexual or otherwise) also limit who they divulge their sexual identities to and more often see being lesbian as a choice, as opposed to gay men, who work more externally and see being gay as outside their control.

This seems to be an opinion, not a fact. Key points that demonstrate this are as follows


 * The phrase "women tend to," with no quantitative research to back up the assertion. If there are statistics that describe this more accurately, those should be given more explicitly.
 * Similarly, the phrase "more often see being lesbian as a choice" needs to be backed up. This should be easy if the citation has this information. If It doesn't, I propose removal as the claim is not without harm if untrue
 * "gay men, who work more externally" doesn't make sense. What does "work more externally" mean?
 * "gay men ... see being gay as outside their control" is a very broad claim and, again, needs to include the relevant evidence
 * This argument compares all women versus just gay men. Do *all* women see lesbianism as a choice? Is that information relevant to how lesbians see lesbianism or how WSW see lesbianism? Is that information relevant to the section on mental health?

Unless there is dispute, I will make edits in a few days with some added sources. The book does have an internet archive version and a page number given, but I am not able to access it. Regardless, if the information is factual, the language should reflect that. If it is opinion, then that should be noted as well. Fluxjupyter (talk) 15:47, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Exactness of language
A few places in here need some terminology update. A few major problems:
 * Often "man" is used as a proxy for someone with a "penis"/"testes" when discussing risks, and "sex with a man" is often used to refer to penile penetrative sex. From a sexual education perspective, this implies that the risk lies with the gender instead of with the organ or type of sexual contact.
 * Similarly, it is assumed that "woman" indicates someone with a vagina and uterus, and that women alone have these organs. Given most medical literature also assumes this, the framing makes some sense. That being said, better phrasing can add clarity.
 * Some sections still have a false binary of "lesbian women" and "heterosexual women"

In general, more exact language is needed. I don't have time (right now) to add all the updates, so assistance on these would be appreciated. Some sentences may benefit from newer sources that use more trans-inclusive terms. Fluxjupyter (talk) 21:18, 15 June 2024 (UTC)