Talk:XY sex-determination system/Archive 1

Evolution section
At present this is an entirely fantastic set of claims referenced to obscure journals. This needs many more high-quality sources if it is to be included. Extrordinary clims require extrordinary sources. Tim Vickers 16:12, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Evolutionary role of sex chromosomes
Sex differentiation provides for testing evolutionary innovations in the male genome before they are transferred to the female one. This is possible with dichronous (asynchronous) evolution, when evolution in males precedes that in females. Hence, along with common autosomal genes for stable characters, exclusively male and exclusively female genes must exist. The male genes are already acquired by the male genome, but are not yet transferred to the female one. The female genes are already lost by the male genome, but still remain in the female genome. They constitute temporary evolutionary genotypic sexual dimorphism.

Autosomes are the most ancient chromosomes and contain the basic information for the species shared by both sexes. They play the role of the conservative memory of the dioecious genome and the depot for stable genes. Autosomes are mixed in each generation.

Sex chromosomes play the role of the operative memory or experimental genomic subsystem. They are aimed at changing the genome. Sex chromosomes are responsible for genotypic sexual dimorphism, they control and restrict the transfer of new information to the female genome.

The Y chromosome is the "conductor" of ecological information into the genome, the "place of birth" and testing of new genes and the accelerator and regulator of genotypic sexual dimorphism. By contrast, the X chromosome of the heterogametic sex provides the transportation of new genes from the Y chromosome to autosomes. This chromosome stabilizes, relaxes, and suppresses genotypic sexual dimorphism and accumulates genes that will be eliminated.

The concept sheds light on many problems: the chromosomal localization of genes and their transfer to other chromosomes, X-inactivation, mobile genes, mutation bursts, insertional mutagenesis, the association of the Y chromosome with stress, retroviruses, etc. In particular, it explains why and where genes "jump," why transpositions of mobile elements depend on ecological stress, and why different genes mutate simultaneously.

Other sex determination systems
Should each one have a separate article, or should they all be merged into a single one? Currently, there are also these:


 * X0 sex-determination system
 * ZW sex-determination system
 * Haplo-diploid sex-determination system

which were all made by me (or will be). Thoughts? Kirbytime 17:45, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I guess it is about time to ask the question, "What do we mean by sex determination system?" Kribytime's classification of Drosophila as X0 is semi-valid if you are looking at mechanisms (dosage of X determines sex).  However, Drosophila is an XY system -- normal females are XX; normal males are XY.  While phenotypically classified as males, X0 flies are sterile (for the most part; there are some species where these males are fertile).  My understanding was that this entry was simply on the gross chromosomal classification.  For example, gingko trees would also fit in the XY system, although I have no idea how they use the X and Y specifically for sex determination.  If we want this to be mechanisms, then it will take some serious rewriting. Ted 18:01, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I think the confusion arose from the distinction between a fertile male and an infertile male. Yes, some X0 are infertile, but that genotype is still considered male, as opposed to female. Just like how humans with XXX genotypes are considered female (even though they might be infertile). Kirbytime 21:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Sex determination system is a sequence of events that determine sex of a progeny. There are 3 levels in phylogenesis (during evolution of species and sex): gene (hermaphrodite forms use), chromosome (dioecious forms use) and genome (most advanced, bees use).

In ontogenesis (individual development) there are also 3 levels: genes, hormones and psychological. On each of the levels sex can actually be reversed. Default or base sex is female. Male sex is a derivative or variation.Sashag 18:10, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

V Interesting
Just dropping in a reflist. V. interesting. Sounds like a plausible theory, but too neat and sweeping to have been confirmed and achieved consensus yet. It could be an example I've rather hoped would happen here at Wiki. Research scientists could popularize technical material here for us, before the establishment authorizes it, or the popular media broadcast it. I'm not suggesting this as an aim for Wiki, just a realistic expectation, given the vast ammount of research and sufficient time.

In this particular case, I suspect the papers are theoretical papers, i.e. they present an explanation of evidence, not the only explanation. Alastair Haines 06:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Swyer's
I have a condition called Swyer syndrome, which as you can see has an extensive article. It is 46,XY sex-reversal due to SRY defects/deletions. Do you think it is related enough to this page to mention?--86.147.1.63 (talk) 22:59, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
 * You could add the link in "See also". Tim Vickers (talk) 23:18, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Discovery and etymology
This article needs some information about the discovery of this mechanism and about the etymology: why were the names X and Y chosen, and by whom? Shinobu (talk) 16:00, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I
I am not going to do any real writing today. Nonetheless, for this article we really need to remove some of the "Redirects". We need separate articles for this subject, as well as for the X Chromosome and the Y Chromosome. Much research exists on the genes found on these chromosomes, each of which can be the subject of an entire article. RK 22:24, Feb 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * I definately think that there should be independent articles for the X and the Y chromosomes (an probably all the other human chromosomes at some point), plus this article on the sex-determination system. Fixing all the redirects will be interesting :). The Y chromosome in particular has potential to become a featured article --nixie 22:38, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Agreed, definitely scope for separate articles, although I think we should still include summaries and main article links in summary style in this article. I think the redirects have now been removed. --Lexor|Talk 23:48, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

!! I do not think XX males  exists. The male cromosome must be present to get the testicle gene. On the other hand Y cromosome may not work correctly creating female or female like phenotype. !!


 * There are males with things other than XY. See XYY syndrome and Klinefelter's syndrome.
 * Yes there are indeed XX males. Just as an XY can develop as female due to defective SRY, so can residual SRY on an X chromosome cause a female to develop as male. I have read a lot of literature about this kind of thing... being an XY female and all. --86.147.1.63 (talk) 22:59, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

On the subject of redirection, it seems wrong to me that 'Genetics of Gender' redirects here. Sex and gender are two very different things, and it seems to me better to admit that there is no page on genetic influences on gender than to conflate these two. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.234.252.65 (talk) 12:22, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand why the fruit fly is mentioned in this article, since it's not a mammal. AnonMoos 16:37, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

In Drosophila, males are XY, but sex is actually determined by the number of X chromosomes, so fruit flies are in the X-0 system. I'm going to add that, as well as the other systems. Kirbytime 17:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * You are wrong. In order to get a fertile male, most Drosophila species require the Y chromosome.  As I recall, it is not part of the doublesex pathway, but genes on the Y are required for proper formation of the vas efferens.

Genetics of gender article
That article only dealt with this narrow topic, so I've merged it here. Until someone can write a general version of the topic, this seems the best option. Tijfo098 (talk) 01:09, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes. That could be taken up with Deletion process. Nadiatalent (talk) 18:18, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Revert

 * Please don't change the article until consensus has been reached here. I'm sorry, but I think it is necessary to revert to the earlier version so that a discussion can take place, which I will now do. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 11:53, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Please clarify your reason for the revert. This is a good-faith edit and without reason this could be interpreted as an example of WP:OWN. I have not merged the above content and reverting does not relate to this. Additionally, why have you reverted the copy-edits of ? You may find this essay: Revert only when necessary useful. I do not believe "In the case of a good faith edit, a reversion is appropriate when the reverter believes that the edit makes the article clearly worse and there is no element of the edit that is an improvement. This is often true of small edits."--LT910001 (talk) 01:10, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I have undone the revert. To be clear, no merge has been conducted and the only edits that were made were to give some more structure to the article and add some background information. I'd be happy to discuss, or even for another user to make edits constructively on top of what has been made, but I hope that we can work on the article itself instead of preventing all editing by reverting. I would of course be happy to discuss any specific issues that have been identified. --LT910001 (talk) 04:33, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Aquatic/marine life
Why is there no mention of or link to anything about sex-determination for aquatic or marine life? 70% of Earth's surface is water. Vaughan Pratt (talk) 04:37, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Suggested correction
www.dropbox.com 37.216.30.245 (talk) 23:35, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Maternal Sex Determination vs Wikipedia's article on Male XY determination
This article seems to completely contradict the article in Wikipedia about the XY chromosome determination of gender. Also, it states as if it is a definite point and proven past the point of being a theory or hypothesis but it doesn't seem have any proof. The other wikipedia article I read about the Male XY chromosome and the SRY gene seems to completely contradict this article. Furthermore, there are so many more other articles that go back in history in regards to 'observation' and 'populations' as well that doesn't seem to back this article up at all. If the male doesn't contribute the Y chromosome for the female XX chromosome, then it would have to be proven without a doubt that the pellicuda could block the Y chromosome completely and select the X chromosome but I didn't see where this was proven. It has been stated in the wikipedia article about the male XY chromosome that the male either contributes the Y or the X, so how does the female body prove it can reject the Y and then the X will thus be contributed in turn from the male chromosome? Has that been observed and proven? Again, this article seems to be a huge contradiction and also what has been stated doesn't seem to have been backed up by a theory that has been proven. 75.189.148.164 (talk) 13:02, 31 August 2015 (UTC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_sex-determination_system

Proposed merge with Maternal influence on sex determination
There is significant duplication in content. This article could readily be merged into XY sex-determination system, benefiting readers by providing more information, and not needlessly fragmenting and hiding the information on this article in a separate article. The content could, if necessary, be re-expanded at a later day. LT910001 (talk) 23:44, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose - I don't see duplication of content, just a little background material at Maternal influence on sex determination. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 17:07, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
 * To clarify, what I mean is that this article contains a short amount of content that could be readily integrated into this article. Having the information on a separate article means that less users will happen upon the information (44,000 vs. 788). If the information was here, it could be more readily seen by more users. Additionally, because the content is quite short, the information could be very readily merged here. If the section here on 'maternal influences' became too big in the future, the article could be re-expanded. --LT910001 (talk) 01:33, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
 * There is a lot of material that needs to be added in both places, and merger would muddle that. For example, XY sex determination in plants is actually quite widespread, though the article currently lists just one genus, Ginkgo. The evolution of XY sex chromosomes is a significant field of research in plants. I have now left messages bringing attention to this discussion at the relevant projects, those listed at the top of this page, and will do the same at plant and animal projects. Sminthopsis84 (talk) 12:45, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Support merge. Having it merge simplifies the process by only needing to add such information in one place. Also, Maternal influence on sex determination is practically an orphan article, with all its incoming links being a few entries in See also sections, which are often decimated, so without a merge there is little hope of people finding it. Mikael Häggström (talk) 19:40, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Support merge. I can't see how omitting some biochemical influences gives readers an accurate picture of how the system functions in totality. As a result, the current split looks like a POV fork to my eyes at the moment. That said, the maternal influences article doesn't look well written and some of the sourcing seems distinctly contentious. Might be an idea to go over it with a fine toothcomb before merging. Dolescum (talk) 01:00, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
 * The consensus seems to me to be to merge so I will now do so. That said article hasnt been traqsnlated into any other languages indicates to me lack of notability excet as a sect5ion to this article. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 01:56, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

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Organism must have at least one X chromosome to survive.
I have seen sources stating an organism must have at least one X chromosome to survive.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK9967/

https://education.seattlepi.com/can-zygote-survive-x-sex-chromosome-4599.html

https://sciencing.com/occurs-zygote-one-fewer-chromosome-usual-17818.html

Not entirely sure where to put this fact but, it should be mentioned.CycoMa (talk) 03:47, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Certainty
This article has too much certainty. If XY determines sex, then it must be consistent. However, there are exceptions to the rule. Any variation from the standard XX=female, XY=male is a falsification of that theory (cf. Popper and the black swan). This article from the WHO https://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html states it clearly "Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex." Donnacha (talk) 01:17, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

The article says. “ Females typically have two of the same kind of sex chromosome (XX), and are called the homogametic sex. Males typically have two different kinds of sex chromosomes (XY), and are called the heterogametic sex.”

Notice how it says typically. CycoMa (talk) 03:48, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

Issues with cherry picked quotes and undue weight being given to them in Genetics section
I've just added a POV template to this section as I believe it is not well balanced and gives too much weight to some cherry picked quotes, particularly the one by Robin Lovell-Badge from a Times Online article.

This is a complex subject and we should try to give more of a broad overview here rather than giving so much weight to some quotes that only show recent opinion by some researchers.

The Lovell-Badge quote is not necessarily bad but would be much better used in a more specific article about the FOXL2 gene (or similar). Here it has too much weight and I believe should be removed as it could mislead the more general reader. Oska (talk) 08:16, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Too much info on intersex conditions
It seems unnecessary to go into depth on intersex variations. Like where is information on stuff regarding sex determination?CycoMa (talk) 21:35, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Too much information on humans
Humans are mammals it makes no sense to have separate sections for mammals and humans. Unless there are major differences.CycoMa (talk) 16:08, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Eric Vilian just admit he is going against a majority ciew
On [this] he straight up admitted he went against a prevalent view.CycoMa (talk) 17:43, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Criticism section is irrelevant
The criticism section is irrelevant to the topic of the article. I looked through the sources and none of them are criticizing the concept of XY sex determination.CycoMa1 (talk) 18:30, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Oh right, hmmm well I wanted to write about the criticism of the system of basing sex on chromosomes, and it seemed like this would be the fitting place. Since the sources mainly talk about how chromosomes only are a part of sex development and there are many other factors that can change the sex appearance. Since there has also been criticism towards basing sex on chromosomes, as those exceptions are quite common and significant. Would there be a better place to write that? Since I do think the sources seem to be factual LunaKlatzer (talk) 19:19, 9 January 2022 (UTC)