Talk:Ziyarat

Definition of Ziyarat
I think ziyarat has a wider significance than just prophets and companions. I believe that the term is also used for Shi'a pilgrimages to graves of Fatima, all the imams, Zaynab, etc. Graves of pirs or Sufi saints are also the object of pilgrimage. There's a lot of material that could be brought in here. I can get cites from 19th century travel books that describe extremely primitive pilgrimage sites in places like Yemen or Baluchistan, where the grave may just be marked by a circle of stones, and where there's a tree or a sort of wooden stand for offerings -- strips of cloth torn off and knotted to the tree or stand.

But before I start doing that, I'd like to hear from other editors. I believe I'm using ziyarat correctly, but I could be wrong. Another term may be used for pilgrimages to the graves of pirs. Zora 09:05, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, the term is also used for Shia pilgrimages to graves. Just to be clear, we are using the term Ziyarat for 'Islamic visits', aren't we ? MP  (talk) 12:16, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Definition of Ziyaret
According to this Dictionary of Islamic Architecture, Ziyaret means the actual place ("venerated shrine or mausoleum") presumably where one visits when going on ziyarat. Is it worth including an article for this term ? If this (the Ziyarat) article has enough information about various places where one can visit when going on Ziyarat, then maybe a list of places could be listed in a future article Ziyaret. I happen to have a book that lists various Sunni and Shia Ziyaret. MP  (talk) 12:16, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmmm ... we have one article for the Hajj, and another for the Kaaba, so it seems sensible to have one article for the act of pilgrimage and another for the places of pilgrimage. I would very much like to see an article on ziyaret, with a list of places, as a guide to having articles on all of them -- with pictures. So many of these places have absolutely lovely architecture and decoration, and yet it's impossible to find a web site where you can see many of them at once. There are just scattered pictures on travel sites, in many cases.


 * I have a POV reason for wanting this ... even though I'm not a Muslim, I'm distressed by the Wahabi push for destroying old mosques, shrines, and graveyards and replacing them with parking lots and mosques that look like Walmarts. It's vandalism to destroy beauty. If we had a better record of it, and more people cared, it would be harder for Wahabis to destroy it.


 * I'm not saying that I think that religion should be reduced to going on pilgrimage and to heck with any other religious cultivation. Having read about the 19th century pilgrimage sites, I can see why Abdul Wahhab regarded them as shirk. But the answer is not destroying them, or hounding their worshippers, but by living a better Islam so radiantly and happily that others cannot help but be attracted.


 * Well, enough of 3 AM sermons. I should go to bed. Thanks for the response. Zora 13:08, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Ziyarah, Ziarah, Ziyarat, Ziyaret and Ziarat
Pay close attention please :) - Ziyarah is an extant redirect to Ziarah, this latter of which I have now merged with Ziyarat (and Ziarah is now a redirect to Ziyarat). I plan to create an article called Ziyaret (places that are visited on Ziyarat). Also, watch out for an article called Ziarat - a town in Pakistan ! MP  (talk) 09:51, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I've just fixed the 'double redirect' from Ziyarah to Ziyarat. Also, we can use this site to check out a whole heap of ziyaret. MP  (talk) 09:56, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Ziaret?
I'll check Dehkhoda, but as far as I know, the physical site for performing a Ziyarat is called Ziyarat-gah (similar to Khan-gah) or Ziyarat-khaneh, if we're talking about Persian words. In persian, there is only one word for pilgrimage, and that is Ziyarat (Ziyarah or Ziyarah are non-Persian equivalents. The t must be pronounced).

But I dont know where this Ziyar e t term is coming from. Sounds like a Turkish mutation to me (similar to Takyeh, which has been mutated into Tekke). And it's not Arabic either (in its kasreh form), because grammatically it is incorrect (it doesnt have the esm-un makan [spatial-name] form of "Maf'il" or "Maf'al" e.g. Masjid [mosque], Madkhal [entrance], the desert of Mah-shar, Maktab [elementary school], Matbakh [kitchen or restaurant], Marta' [grazing land], Mahfil [roundtable], etc)

We also have the associated words Zavvār and Zā'ir, which means the person who performs Ziyarat. The Arabic equivalent is "Zawwār".

But "Ziyaret" (meant as a place of ziyarat) seems to be a Turkish word, and is not widely used.--Zereshk 01:20, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't have a copy of the book from which MPatel got the word. Deeptrivia is busy adding category "ziyaret" to lots of places, so if we need to change the name, we'd better do it soon. But I'm not sure that it's right to change it to the Persian form, when countries from Morocco to Indonesia have pilgrimage sites and many different names for them. I'd go for an English descriptive term, but I can't think of one that isn't clumsy. Muslim pilgrimage sites (not the Kaaba)? Lesser Muslim pilgrimage sites? I suppose we could use the Arabic term, as Muslims usually seem to accept Arabic terminology as privileged.


 * Are there any problems with using ziyarat? Zora 02:37, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Im not saying "lets change it to a Persian form". I'm saying that "Ziyaret" (meant as a place name) is not a popularly used word anywhere maybe except in 1 or 2 countries. Therefore it merits no real separate article. Think of it, if I have never heard of it, what chance is there that other Shias will have? Try asking Striver if he has ever heard of "Ziyaret" being used as a place name (instead of a verb).


 * I suggest Ziyaret be merged into Ziyarat.--Zereshk 03:02, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I suppose I'm OK with that. I figured that they would both get big, but Ziyaret is growing and Ziyarat isn't, so a merge would be doable. Let's wait and see what the other editors say. Deeptrivia and MPatel and Siddiqui have done a lot of work on all this. And we have some great pictures! Zora 03:09, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I agree with the merger. ||||


 * I think using the Arabic word will be a fine idea. Although a google search shows many more hits for ziyaret, they seem to be mostly originating from Turkey, while ziyarat seems to be more widely used, as rightly pointed out by Zereshk. So, I guess we should go ahead with the merger into ziyarat:) deeptrivia (talk) 22:16, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Major revision
I rewrote the article extensively. It still lacks references -- and pictures. Also, we need a description of exactly what one DOES on ziyarat. I can't write it, because I don't know! Zora 10:41, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Wahabi?
Actually Wahabis are following the Iblis, who wants direct connection with Allah. But what has happened to Iblis will happen to All Wahabies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sameer logedin (talk • contribs) 10:46, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Zora, the term Wahabi is a misnomer. I would rather it wasn't used to describe the Tawheedi Salafi movement of Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab. It was introduced by the British in India to label the followers of Syed Ahmed Shaheed, who had reactivated Jihad against the British in India.
 * Huh??? It's from Abdul-Wahhab, the cleric from Najd who allied with the Saudis to take over most of Arabia. Zora 11:37, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The movement in Arabia was actually a re-activation of ibne Taimmiyya's movement, and all the Salafis before him. And it was used by the Uthmanis because the Saudi government had replaced them. In India, the followers of Syed Ahmad Shaheed, and the ahle Hadith or Salafis, are labelled like this. peacedove 12:16, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Second, since we are having POVs here, mine is that although I am against replacement of places of historic interest with Walmarts and parking lots, as you have so eloquently put it, I am also against leaving those things to continue which have led to shirk in the past, are doing so today, and will continue to do so in the future.


 * Let other people do what they want. If you try to stop what you call shirk by beating or fining people, or tearing down things of value to them, that's religious persecution. Zora 11:37, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * POV's, as you said earlier. You are welcome to your POV. I have a regard for my children, and I would like to see them as little exposed to shirk as possible. peacedove 12:16, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * What is the worth of faith that depends on ignorance of all alternatives? You don't have much confidence in your ideas if you think that your children are going to turn "idolators" if they so much as see an Sufi shrine. IMHO, you're simply increasing the chances that your children are going to resent you for imposing your beliefs on them and then rebel in all sorts of interesting ways. Zora 19:43, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

It is a fine line between retaining history, and eliminating causes of shirk.

Regarding Ziyarahs, perhaps I could tell you something about what people do, as I have been led by friends to these in a bid to make me follow their pirs. I can tell you that a great deal of what happens is shirk, and is most certainly bid`ah. The details of actions vary, from place to place, from order to order. peacedove 11:19, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * "Bid'ah". God I hate that word. So carelessly used to label anyone that doesnt agree with your brand of Islam. How disgusting to see such intolerance emanating from those professing "Islam" in this time and age. As Hafez so elegantly put it:


 * "The wrangles of seventy-two sects of Islam, forgive them all,
 * When truth they saw not, the door of nonsense they beat." Divan-e-Hafez--Zereshk 10:33, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Merged articles
I merged the ziyaret and ziyarat articles and rewrote. The question of terminology has yet to be settled. Editors who actually speak any of the languages involved are invited to correct or add items. Zora 01:59, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

gallery instated
To make a gallery, we need more than one pic per country. At present only India and Iran are such. We need more pics from other places.--Zereshk 00:27, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Controversy section
Quite a few editors have taken exception to the "controversy" section, trying to remove anything that would reflect negatively on Wahhabis or Salafis. I and others have restored the material.

I just edited it to say that sometimes Wahhabis and Salafis have used political power to destroy shrines and prevent ziyarat. So it isn't a blanket statement any longer. It might help prevent further attempts at censorship if we actually gave a list, with good references, of Wahhabi/Salafi initiatives of this sort. If there are Salafi editors reading this who think that Salafism does NOT mean using force to prevent other Muslims from doing ziyarat, then it would be helpful if we could have some quotes (referenced and translated) from Salafi authorities decrying the destruction of shrines and interference with other Muslims' faith. If there is a debate within the Salafi world on the use of force and political power, let's document it here. Zora 02:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

How Wahabis can qoute us the any references from the scholars like Imam Bukhar who himself is of Ahlesunnat wal Jamat sect.Imam Bhukahri (R.A.) was also the follower of Imam Shafie (R.A.) Means He was a Muqlid, whereas these wahabis are all 'Gair Mukallid', and how then Imam Bukhari's (R.A.) tomb exist in a very well maintaned shape( Alhamduallah). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sameer logedin (talk • contribs) 10:43, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Aargh, sorry, hit wrong key when editing summary
Truthspreader, you need to explain on the talk page why you disagree so violently with ziyarat as "poor man's hajj." You can't just slap up a notice and walk away. I'm surprised by your reaction, since I read that bit re "poor man's hajj" many places. I can't figure out what upsets you about the reporting. Is it that you don't think anyone ever believed that ziyarat could replace the hajj?

Opiner, I don't think that there's anything POV about describing Muhammad as a prophet in lowercase. He was accepted as such by his followers. If the Hebrew prophets can be described as prophets (lower-case) so can Muhammad. It's just Prophet that has the appearance of piety and that we try not to use in WP. Zora 07:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Removing list of sites
I believe that my reason for removing the sites is strongly based in the What Wikipedia is not policy. WP:NOTDIRECTORY says articles are not "Lists or repositories of loosely associated topics". WP:NOTTRAVEL says articles are not "Travel guides". WP:INDISCRIMINATE says articles are not "Excessive listings of statistics". I think the list of sites falls partially into a number of these items, and so I believe the lists should be removed. —Torchiest talkedits 16:59, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

There are quite deep and extensive divisions within Islam about ziyarat (ziarah). In many contexts it is a way of defining whether your are one or the other a supporter of or detractor of ziarah, by whether you have a site you can identify with. For a while some non english speaking editors started adding every site that they knew of that related to ziarah in their country - and it expanded. I think the extistence of the long list should not be denied - but simply created as a separate list....

To delete the accrued list and not-reincorporate into a specific list is missing the point, and not understanding of the motivation of a lot of the adders of material. There is nothing loosely associated about ziarah sites. There is a complex relationship between sites and various practitioners of Islam, and some networks are intrinsically related to a whole lot of other cultural contexts that the average editor or adder might not have the capacity to explain or provide WP:RS for.

As for the summary heading that suggested (after re-instating the list) that specific countries be check individually, there is a need for more WP:RS to clarify the names of sites on the resultant list. SatuSuro 09:54, 9 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment - a separate list needs to be created ✅ see - List of ziyarat sites. Any issues with context of the list can be take then to that list, rather than this article which is sufficiently stand alone and separate from the list and a good intro re the issues surrounding ziyarat. SatuSuro 10:19, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Intertion of pro-Sufi/anti-Salafi POV
It's rather clear based both on the article content and many of the comments here that some editors have taken it upon themselves to use this article as a soapbox to criticize the salafist movement and meld the subsections for Sunni and Sufi viewpoints together. Needless to say, this behavior is not encyclopedic and shouldn't be tolerated. MezzoMezzo (talk) 08:59, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

If not strictly Sufi habit, why tagged "Sufism and Tariqat"?
ArmindenArminden (talk) 07:35, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Rewrite
I have rewritten the Sunni section of this article as it was reliant almost exclusively on primary sources. The new material is based on the following secondary sources:


 * Diem, Werner; Schöller, Marco (2004-01-01). The Living and the Dead in Islam: Indices. Otto Harrassowitz Verlag. ISBN 9783447050838
 * Zargar, Cameron (2014). The Hanbali and Wahhabi Schools of Thought As Observed Through the Case of Ziyārah. The Ohio State University
 * Rapoport, Yossef; Ahmed, Shahab (2010-01-01). Ibn Taymiyya and His Times. Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780195478341.

I intend to add to this in the near future. MontyKind (talk) 11:33, 5 August 2018 (UTC)