Template:Did you know nominations/2012 Race of Champions

2012 Race of Champions
Created/expanded by Phósphoros (talk). Nominated by TheOriginalSoni (talk) at 15:23, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * ... that German racers Michael Schumacher and Sebastien Vettel won their sixth consecutive Race of Champions event this year, a race that's competed by the best racers of the world?


 * Which article is newly created? Format it in bold! --Tito Dutta (talk) 15:28, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry. Forgot about that! TheOriginalSoni (talk) 15:31, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Too many tables and less prose (only in lead)! --Tito Dutta (talk) 15:37, 18 December 2012 (UTC) and unsourced sections (tables)! --Tito Dutta (talk) 15:39, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Is that not allowed? The crux of the article lies in its tables, and not the prose. Prose may also be added; but it shall not be as much as other normal articles. Its mainly the tables and the scores that are of interest.TheOriginalSoni (talk) 15:41, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Symbol possible vote.svg The prose size is only 367 characters as per DYK check. Tables and lists are not included in the character count. Correct Knowledge  «৳alk»  16:32, 18 December 2012 (UTC)


 * To clarify, in order to qualify for DYK, a new list article like this one must have at least 1500 prose characters—usually presented as introductory material—in addition to subsequent lists and/or tables. This one is far short of what is required. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:43, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I shall try to work on the prose size tonight. Can anyone just tell how many characters does the article currently hold? TheOriginalSoni (talk) 05:06, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * 370 --Tito Dutta (talk) 05:19, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the character count is around that limit now (Showed 1470 to me). I believe there shall be more characters being added and some general copyediting done (which should be done by tonight I think); but the character count is now satisfied, IMO. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 11:14, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Ya, please add references in unreferenced section! --Tito Dutta (talk) 11:37, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * How does it look now? TheOriginalSoni (talk) 12:02, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I am not happy with citations. To clarify it–
 * 2012_Race_of_Champions last few sentences have no source!
 * Cars section unsourced!
 * Race of Champions section Ho-Pin Tung and Kazuya Oshima qualified having achieved the best times (among non-Thai drivers) in ROC Asia. --Tito Dutta (talk) 17:57, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Now? Added one primary hook which has information on all these above questions. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 19:03, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Sections "Cars" etc are still unsourced! --Tito Dutta (talk) 19:11, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

The source was added. I checked. It had the car names also written there. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 15:36, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Sourcing is more or less okay! Let's see if the other reviewer has something to say on article length or citations! Can you suggest an ALT hook? --Tito Dutta (talk) 15:52, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It looks like sourcing was fine, but new unsourced paragraphs on ROC Asia and ROC Thailand have been added, and need to include citations. On the plus side, the article is now well over 1500 prose characters. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:28, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
 * How about now? TheOriginalSoni (talk) 13:56, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Those paragraphs are now sourced. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:26, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Anyone now minds reviewing this hook? TheOriginalSoni (talk) 17:35, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

Also, does anybody know if there should be a photo with this hook, and which one? This looks interesting enough to be the lead hook for DYK. (Grosjean, or Schumacher or Vettel) TheOriginalSoni (talk) 17:38, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * As the article itself has no images, the nomination can't use any: by DYK rules, any image must come from the article in question, and must be licensed via Creative Commons or some other method, not be "fair-use" images. If properly licensed relevant images are added to the article, then one of them could be used here, though of course there are no guarantees the hook would be a lead hook. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:54, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Can the images not be of any of the other linked articles? TheOriginalSoni (talk) 19:32, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
 * All the three images I want - Schumacher/Vettel/Grosjean have images on their respective which easily meet this criteria and could be used in the article as the photograph of one of the winners. Other images can also be considered for the same.


 * Symbol redirect vote4.png Full review needed now that the article meets the DYK length and expansion requirements. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:32, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * this year in the hook might be problematic since we can't say we'll have it in the main page this year! And can you suggest an alternative hook? --Tito Dutta (talk) 20:54, 26 December 2012 (UTC)


 * ALT1- ... that in the latest Race of Champions event, Romain Grosjean (pictured) won the Champions of Champions title, while Germany won their sixth consecutive Nations Cup?
 * ALT2- ... that Romain Grosjean (pictured) won the latest Race of Champions title in a race that is participated by the best drivers of the world?
 * ALT3 - ... that Germany won the Nations cup for the sixth consecutive time in a race competed by the best drivers in the world?


 * How about these? TheOriginalSoni (talk) 15:45, 27 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Proposing variants of ALT1 and ALT2 since there's no reason to say "latest", which could be 2005 for all anyone knows, when you can use the actual title of the article in the hook by saying "2012" instead (I'm not sure it's necessary to have both the year's article and the general article linked to):
 * ALT1a: ... that in the 2012 Race of Champions, driver Romain Grosjean (pictured) won the Champions of Champions title, while Germany won their sixth consecutive Nations Cup?
 * ALT2a: ... that Romain Grosjean (pictured) won the 2012 Race of Champions title in a car race that is participated by the best drivers of the world?
 * I've also added "driver" to ALT1 to give an idea about what the sport actually is and "car" to ALT2, ditto; ALT3 could also be changed by adding "car". However, without a picture of Grosjean added to both the article and this template, nothing can be pictured. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:17, 1 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Symbol redirect vote4.png This still needs a reviewer, please. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:39, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The nominator is on a Wikibreak, unless citations in those tables are really requires, it should be good to go! --Tito Dutta (talk) 03:35, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Symbol redirect vote4.png I'm sorry; but "good to go" when there are specific issues regarding hook variants is not sufficient. Which hooks are approved must be made clear. Note that "pictured" will need to be removed from all hooks as no pictures have been supplied here, nor are there any pictures of the relevant people in the article (only properly licensed images from the article can be used in nominations). BlueMoonset (talk) 16:40, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
 * There are three images that can be used, all being on the front of the respective pages and all falling under the guidelines - that of Schumacher, Vettel or Grosjean. I am waiting for the reviewer, whoever that is, to decide which one ought to be best, before adding it to the article.
 * TheOriginalSoni (talk) 18:24, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
 * These images are not being used in that article. --Tito Dutta (talk) 00:51, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * TheOriginalSoni, I'm afraid that's backward. Pick the image you want in the article and add it there, and then add it here and adjust the hooks to match. I have deleted the three images as they are not in the article and thus still ineligible. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:21, 21 January 2013 (UTC)


 * How about now? TheOriginalSoni (talk) 06:57, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Symbol redirect vote4.png Great! I've adjusted the image formatting here for DYK, and it's ready for a reviewer to look over the image and the various hooks and make clear which ones are formally approved (or what issues remain, if any). BlueMoonset (talk) 07:17, 21 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Symbol confirmed.svg Should be okay with ALT1 or ALT1a! If you want to choose any other alt, tell me, I'll review citation etc for that alt quickly!--Tito Dutta (talk) 07:29, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Symbol question.svg Tito, please, if you wish to review DYK articles, it is your responsibility to do a complete review up front: all the hooks that have been proposed, their citations, etc. That way, the person promoting the article knows which hooks are supported and which are not: there isn't time to keep coming back to ask about other hooks and their citations. Please finish the review, which means reviewing ALT2 and ALT3. I have struck the original hook, since "this year" is no longer correct, and have also struck my ALT2a because it has grammatical problems and sourcing problems inherited from ALT2. There definitely needs to be some checking of the other ALTs, since "best drivers in the world" is an extraordinary claim which needs clear and unambiguous sourcing; I'm not sure "a selection of some of the finest riders and drivers from around the motorsports globe" (the foxsports.com.au characterization) is up to that level. BlueMoonset (talk) 08:04, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Please read the comment of 26 December above! You are commenting on "this year" today which I mentioned on 26 December! And that meant those ALTs are not applicable now or needs to be rewritten and if rewritten or new hook is added, I can review that/those too! --Tito Dutta (talk) 08:19, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * ALT3 is also alright! Other (eliminated) hooks need revision (i.e. not ready)! Back to the comment above (which was misunderstood unfortunately), if those hooks are revised or any other new hook is suggested, I can check those too! --Tito Dutta (talk) 10:45, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Tito, I had seen December 26, and you made a good point there. However, the hook was still visible, and it's always a good idea to strike out (put a line through) hooks that are no longer valid, so the person who promotes it doesn't mistakenly assume the bad hook is still viable. I make it a point of noting when I strike hooks, so anyone reading this review can determine when it happened. Regarding ALT3, can I ask which sentence in the article, and which source, did you feel supported "best drivers in the world"? I expressed my concerns about it earlier today, yet your review did not address them, and I think it should have. If that hook were so say "some of the best drivers in the world", I think the foxsports.com.au source would support it, but "some of" (or a like phrase) is not used in ALT3. Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 14:50, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Did you see the list of participants? Anyway, a) this article mentions.. There will be a mouth-watering battle between the world’s best racers on four wheels. b) from an AFP news article besting some of the biggest names in motorsport..., c) Fox News reports The pair will face a selection of some of the finest riders and drivers from around the motorsports globe etc! --Tito Dutta (talk) 15:16, 21 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Tito, I've just realized that this article makes a lot of assumptions about the reader's knowledge, and it simply can't do that when it comes to hook facts. First, there is no description—not even in the intro—of what this race is. "Race of Champions" is a title; it is not safe to assume that a title matches what the event actually is. As a standalone article, it shouldn't entirely rely on the master article for its general information. If it's a race matching the champions in various areas of racing, it should say so. If it involves certain kinds of cars, it should say that. (I doubt Nascar is involved, for example.) I'd like to suggest adding a sentence at the start of the Participants section that specifically addresses this, citing the sources you mention (especially the first one, even if it is a primary source), which people reading the hook can then refer to. (A shorter version of that section for the article's lead would also be appropriate.) At the moment, there's no article sentence I can point to that's the equivalent of "best drivers in the world" in the hooks, and there needs to be. A list of participants alone is not sufficient for this hook. BlueMoonset (talk) 18:33, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Please compare the current version with this version which was presented at DYK. I have mentioned a number of issues in this month starting with "prose limit (1500 characters)", citation (multiple unsourced paragraphs/tables] (long talk), image! In my opinion, in this review we are working much much more than what we do in other reviews.
 * You can see above I showed my dissatisfaction with the sources multiple times. This was a tiring work. On 25 December, you found the mentioned paragraphs were sourced. But, I still want to see one source for "The Track" section! I don't know who is going to add it since nominator is on a Wikibreak again.
 * I found another issue in ALT3, which has not been pointed in this review and is not directly a DYK issue, the hook contains poor/weasel wording: Reading the hook without the links "... that Germany won the Nations cup for the 2012 Race of Champions in Race of Champions competed by the best drivers in the world"– here "all world championship" has been mentioned thrice, in both the links (the name "Race of Champions" immediately means it was a world championship) and again at the end of the sentence "the best drivers in the world" (do we need to say, only the best drivers of the world participate in a "world" championship or "race of champions)
 * That's why, after checking all the ALTs and the current status of the article, I felt ALT1a is alright and well sourced which I mentioned above. --Tito Dutta (talk) 19:16, 21 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Symbol question.svg As mentioned above only ALT1a seems to be ready at this moment. Other ALTs need revision. Personally I want to see 1 citation in "The Track" section! I'll notify the nominator! --Tito Dutta (talk) 06:11, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The citation has been added. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 07:27, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, are you going to rewrite/suggest current/new hook/s? As you can understand, we are zeroing on ALT1a! --Tito Dutta (talk) 07:33, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * No. Alt 1a looks fine. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 07:39, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Symbol confirmed.svg ALT1a gets the Visa then (in other words, ALT 1a should be good to go)! (hang on, didn't I say this 2 days ago too?) --Tito Dutta (talk) 07:44, 23 January 2013 (UTC)