Template talk:Heavy metal music/Archive 2

Color contrast - accessibility
Hi. In support of Gnevin's edit, NAVBOXCOLOUR states that color different than default can be used "when useful for identification and are appropriate, representative, and accessible". In this case, white on red is accessible. But it is not useful for identification nor representative. Thus the default colors can be used.

Walter Görlitz expressed the concern that blue on blue (the default colors) is not accessible. The reasoning is correct, but this default colors were carefully tested for accessibility. Testing with the tools listed at Manual_of_Style/Accessibility provides the following result. "*Foreground: #0945AD - Background: #D0CEFD In short, this contrast is compliant to the standard level of contrast required (AA level). Cheers, Dodoïste (talk) 19:34, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The contrast ratio is: 5.6:1
 * Text passed at level AA
 * Large text passed at level AA
 * Large text passed at level AAA
 * Contrast (Minimum): Text (and images of text) have a contrast ratio of at least 4.5:1, except if the text is pure decoration. Larger scale text (at least 18 point or 14 point bold) or images of text can have a contrast ratio of 3:1. (Level AA)"
 * Thanks. For those who don't know, the letter ratings above relate to WCAG 2.0. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:12, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Also best to remember not to color/hide  the links. As per WP:COLOUR - "Links should clearly be identifiable as a link to our readers."Moxy (talk) 22:19, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Do lyrics define the genre or is it something else
A consensus was changed here here and here with the reasons: "these aren't subgenres of metal" and "these terms refer to the lyrics only". Excellent bold edit. They were reverted here. An edit war ensued without discussion. Overall this the is difference.
 * First edit is intact
 * Cello rock is piped to Cello metal
 * Crust punk is piped to Crust
 * Death-doom is no longer piped to Death/doom
 * Digital hardcore, Electronicore and Nintendocore removed
 * Christian metal, Pagan metal, Pornogrind and Unblack metal are still in the article since they have stand-alone articles. Should they be moved to a different section of the template because they don't differ radically in musical style from other music-only genres, removed completely, should they be left as-is, or something else? --Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:03, 2 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't know. It's hard, because IMO a ganre can only be defined by it's aesthetics, which excludes definitions via lyrics. But still, we don't work here with opinions, but with sources. And all genres that Asarlai removed have their own article, and all of them have sources that relate them with another metal genres (even Digital hardcore and Electronicore have).
 * Christian metal seems to be some kind of an umbrella term (just like Extreme metal) for all metal with christian lyrics. So it seems to be a legit genre.
 * Pagan metal is already linked as a subgenre in the Black metal's article.
 * Unblack metal seems to have the same aesthetics as Black metal, but still it has it's own article and sources.
 * Pornogrind, alongside with Goregrind, both have a more complex situation. They seem to be part of a fusion genre known as Deathgrind, but with more focused lyrics. For me, both Pornogrind and Goregrind should be merged to the Deathgrind's article. But still, they fall on the same situation of Unblack metal, which was described above.


 * I wanna utilize this section to say that I have intention to add the Dark metal and Latin metal in this template, but I'm not sure of it because there's some questions about those 2 that aren't well solved, consequently, their articles aren't well established. I want your opinions about them too.ABC paulista (talk) 19:51, 2 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Music genres are defined by more than lyrics alone. For that reason, I think we should keep Christian metal, Pagan metal, Pornogrind, Unblack metal and National Socialist black metal out of this template. They refer to the lyrics only; not to a particular sound or style. However, if most editors want to keep them in the template, then they should be put under "Notable scenes".
 * I've no problem with adding Latin metal, but I'm not sure about Dark metal as there seems to be no agreement on what it is. ~Asarlaí 20:20, 2 February 2013 (UTC)


 * As I said before, I agree with you about that when I said "IMO a ganre can only be defined by it's aesthetics, which excludes definitions via lyrics". But, the sources in their respective articles treat them as particular subgenres. I don't think we can fight against those. And no, they have nothing to do with a scene.
 * IMO, Pornogrind and Goregrind should be merged on the Deathgrind's article, since they refer to the lyrics only.
 * Unblack metal and NSBM, as I can recall, are treated as ideologies, not as subgenres...ABC paulista (talk) 20:56, 2 February 2013 (UTC)


 * If a genre has enough merit for an article, it should be listed. Our job is to determine the best way of presenting that information to avoid confusion. Perhaps, the Subgenres section could be broken down further so that black metal and other primary sub-genres are listed more prominently. See Template:Extreme metal for an example.
 * I'm biased toward Christian metal and unblack metal. They, along with pagan metal are more than just a difference of lyrics, they are also a meeting point of two cultures: metal and a belief-system. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:16, 2 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Sure, but genres aren't defined by the lyrics or beliefs of the band members alone. If that was the case, then every topic would be its own genre: Sex Metal, Drinking Metal, Sci-Fi Metal, Mythology Metal, Socialist Metal, and so on.
 * Christian metal, Pagan metal, Unblack metal, National Socialist black metal, Pornogrind and (possibly) Goregrind are terms based on lyrics alone. All the other kinds of metal here are based on much more than lyrics. Thus, the two don't belong together. Christian metal, Pagan metal asf are more like 'scenes' or 'subcultures'. If we choose to keep them in the template, they shouldn't be lumped in with other well-defined genres like death metal, black metal, thrash metal, doom metal, asf. To treat them as if they're all the same is misleading. ~Asarlaí 21:50, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Maybe we should create another sections in the template, something that behave articles about ideologies within genres, like Unblack metal and National Socialist black metal. Also, it's hard to determine what's "primary" and what isn't... ABC paulista (talk) 22:00, 2 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree. If we're going to keep them in the template then they shouldn't be put with the rest, because they're not the same. We could put them in the "Notable scenes" section and re-name it "Notable scenes and subcultures". ~Asarlaí 23:58, 3 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I really, really disagree with putting them with the scenes because they aren't a regional phenomenon or something like that. I'm more favourable to create a new, entirely different section for them. ABC paulista (talk) 01:23, 4 February 2013 (UTC)


 * What do you suggest we name it? "Ideologies" and "Movements" would fit for some but not for others. ~Asarlaí 02:25, 5 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, all of them deal with ideologies. So, what about "Ideologies within genres"? I think that's a little bit long name. So, maybe... "subcultures"? ABC paulista (talk) 20:03, 5 February 2013 (UTC)


 * +1 for subcultures.
 * Although perhaps looking at the roots of the genres to split them up further would make sense. Which are foundational and which are derivatives? Group them together as well. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:17, 5 February 2013 (UTC)


 * No... The Heavy metal's "family tree" is giant and really, really complex. It's hard to categorize them all, since newer genres tend to take influences from various older metal genres, making hard to find their origins. Even genres like Death metal and Black metal would cause discussions since they are kinda fundational, leading to the birth of another genres. However both came from Thrash metal, which in turn arose from Speed metal, giving them the status of derivatives... ABC paulista (talk) 19:56, 6 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I went ahead and moved those articles into a new section named "Subcultures".
 * I think now we should really look at merging Pornogrind into Grindcore, Goregrind into Deathgrind and Symphonic black metal into black metal. ~Asarlaí 22:36, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

In my opinion, both Pornogrind and Goregrind should be merged into Deathgrind, since they seem to be the same stuff musically. And for Symphonic Black Metal, I think that the article should be kept, since it has some content, and somehow expanded. ABC paulista (talk) 23:26, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 April 2014
I want to add an new Metal subgenre.

GUROMETAL (talk) 21:52, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Jackmcbarn (talk) 00:39, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Grunge
AllMusic calls grunge a fusion genre of punk rock, alternative rock, and heavy metal. Would someone want to discuss? ~SML •  TP   18:45, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

If our revert things that are undiscussed, why don’t you participate in the discussion?


 * Because I don't know the subject matter that well. I just know that changes like this need to be discussed first. Especially changes to templates. - FlightTime  ( open channel ) 20:12, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
 * It seems reasonable to include it, particularly with the mention that early bands focused more on an early 70s metal sound while later bands were more melodic (read: pop) in sound. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:35, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay, well grunge has been added.  ~SML  •  TP  18:38, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 November 2020
Could someone put synth-metal in this template? 73.54.195.214 (talk) 00:40, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

✅ — Czello 07:53, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 November 2020 (2)
Could someone also add Nintendocore to this template? 73.54.195.214 (talk) 17:12, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
 * ✅. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (Say hi!) 10:27, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Heavy Metal Cleanup
Could someone please make sure that this template has all genres (even those that don't have pages) that fit under heavy metal and none that don't? I'd also like each genre to be put under the Heavy metal genres category and the template in all of the genres. Don't forget to message me. (I'd do all this myself, but I've never been good at reviewing.) 2601:C7:C201:C640:F47E:5B35:8067:73AA (talk) 00:00, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * ❌ Navigation templates are not lists. They should only include links to articles. See WP:EXISTING. Also, adding "all genres" would require a list of those supposed genres that are missing, along with reliable sources for each. If you can do that, then those missing would likely merit their own article and can be added. If you cannot, then add details, again with at least one reliable source, to an article of a related genre. Walter Görlitz (talk) 08:55, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Unblack metal
Could someone put Unblack metal under Black metal? 73.54.195.214 (talk) 15:33, 3 February 2021 (UTC)


 * It's already listed under controversies. — Czello 15:40, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Why is it under controversies and not genres? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:C7:C201:C640:EC61:6840:B463:3081 (talk) 03:39, 4 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 February 2021
Could someone remove Heavy metal and nu metalcore from this template (the former just brings redundancy and the latter is just a redirect)? 2601:C7:C201:C640:F47E:5B35:8067:73AA (talk) 17:04, 7 February 2021 (UTC)


 * ✅, makes sense. — Czello 17:40, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Black Metal
Could someone put National Socialist, Symphonic, and Unblack under Black metal? 2601:C7:C201:C640:858:F10A:19EB:FFF3 (talk) 23:08, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
 * ✅. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (Say hi!) 06:37, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Metalcore
Could someone group the Metalcore genres? 73.54.195.214 (talk) 19:06, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done -   t • c 15:34, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Cleanup
Could someone:
 * regroup the Metalcore genres?
 * put Indigenous metal music and Visual kei (with Nagoya kei grouped under it) in this template?
 * take out all genres (unless they have sections in the pages they redirect to) that don't have pages?
 * group Post-metal under avant-garde metal? 2601:C7:C201:C640:F47E:5B35:8067:73AA (talk) 17:30, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Yellow check.svg Partly done:
 * Metalcore is already grouped, not sure what you mean.
 * Added Indigenous metal music into "notable scenes and movements", but Visual kei doesn't really appear to be movement or a genre of heavy metal.
 * All the listed genres have corresponding articles.
 * The article for post-metal just says it's "closely related to avant-garde metal" rather than being a subgenre.
 * Volteer1 (talk) 12:32, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Some genres, like Mathcore, aren't listed under Metalcore, even though they're subgenres of it. The reason why I requested Visual kei was because I saw it in the category Heavy metal genres.  Have you taken out the genres that are just redirects?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:C7:C201:C640:B8FF:809F:2B15:A7AE (talk) 13:38, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Electronicore
Could someone add Electronicore? 2601:C7:C201:C640:5470:F380:A795:9D7F (talk) 20:29, 23 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:38, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Nerd Genres
Could someone add Heavy Mithril and Nerd Metal on here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:C7:C201:C640:D5B6:50B1:EBB3:570F (talk) 03:00, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
 * We would have to be able to point to an article where they are discussed and I don't presently see any such target. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:53, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 October 2021
Could someone add Digital hardcore? 47.36.25.163 (talk) 19:25, 28 October 2021 (UTC)


 * Not a heavy metal subgenre, already included at Template:Hardcore punk. — Czello 19:30, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 October 2021
Could someone group Djent and Progressive metalcore under Porgressive metal? 47.36.25.163 (talk) 16:16, 25 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Djent and Progressive metalcore already have pages that detail their stylistic origins in progressive metal. Thanks, Heartmusic678 (talk) 11:28, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 December 2021
Could someone add Dungeon synth to this template (and group it under Black metal)? 47.36.25.163 (talk) 23:04, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - FlightTime  ( open channel ) 23:07, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I'd greatly appreciate it if you'd look for sources instead of just blindly deleting my edits. 47.36.25.163 (talk) 23:22, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
 * That's not how it works here. The onus is on you to provide worthy sources, since you are the one wanting the change. If you asked us to add "left-handed polar alligator", would you expect that we just add it? Even though you made up the expression while drunk? I would hope not. If you want dungeon synth added, it must be because you have citation(s) to reliable source(s) for that addition. &mdash; JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 01:15, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The Dungeon synth article has some sources next to the link for black metal. 47.36.25.163 (talk) 01:41, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 December 2021
Could someone change this template to look more like this?

2601:C7:C201:C640:6434:F270:9B3C:B5A9 (talk) 19:54, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
 * ❌ While I'm open to the idea of better categorisation of subgenres, I don't think this works. The left-to-right layout implies umbrellas or other connections that it shouldn't. — Czello 21:37, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
 * In that case, what do you suggest? 2601:C7:C201:C640:F18D:AB0E:7875:86CF (talk) 03:00, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 October 2022
Could someone add Countrycore to this template? 2600:6C5A:417F:794E:1469:BBDB:BA98:58B2 (talk) 14:36, 23 October 2022 (UTC) 2600:6C5A:417F:794E:1469:BBDB:BA98:58B2 (talk) 14:36, 23 October 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ -- Asartea   Talk  &#124;  Contribs  19:09, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 October 2022
Could someone add Metalbilly to this template (and categorize it under Countrycore)? 2600:6C5A:417F:794E:F95C:AD77:13BA:D01D (talk) 23:50, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * ❌. You should cite your sources. Binksternet (talk) 02:37, 27 October 2022 (UTC)