Template talk:Navbar/Archive 1

May 2006
Greetings my fellow editors, I've created this new template to allow the average Wikipedian to have quick and easy access to primarily Navigational Guide Template space (ie: Template:Islam, Template:Christianity, Template:Judaism, Template:Terrorism, etc.). It is my belief that without this sort of functionality, ad hoc (or otherwise) navigational (etc.) Template cabals can form who covet the template space in this regard and can show signs of owernship relative to it. With this new functionality more Wikipedians are likely to come to bear upon a given Nav (etc.) Template and provide a wider range of views ensuring a greater chance for neutrality in this regard as well. Please don't hesitate to drop me some talk here for any questions, or need for collaboration on this or related ideas. Netscott 20:59, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Something of note: On some templates (ie: Template:JewishLifeCycle) there is a small edit link that actually dumps an editor straight into editing. I've purposely opted to not do the same for this template as I find that an immediate page code view is a bit daunting to an editor not familiar with editing on the somewhat technical navigational templates. The way that this template now stands, once the edit link is clicked, an editor is brought to the actual template for viewing (much like the following: Edit this box). I realize that there may be editors who disagree with this principal but I would kindly request that if such a change is made that at minimum some talk is added here explaining the full advantages of doing so (vs. how I've set it up) and perhaps drop me a note at the same time. Thanks! Netscott 21:08, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I've updated this template since I made the above entry and now it's possible to view | edit | talk for any template that has this template added to it. Netscott 00:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think having an edit link is great, and a must. I've seen them more and more, and they are very helpful.  The current navbar temmplate works well for vertical (high) templates, but not so good on templates that are wide, since it adds a lot of extra height.  Maybe we can have two navbar templates? -- Jeff3000 00:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Greetings Jeff3000, welcome to the discussion. Yes indeed... there's probably a need for a couple more templates. I've already made another that is more vertical see Template:Tnavbarv. Can you provide me with a link to a specific template that you have concerns on so that I might be able to evaluate the situationn and see what I can come up with? Thanks. Netscott 00:23, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The more vertical one looks good, but for example in Template:Bahá'í-2 the template adds a significant amount of whitespace at the bottom of the box. Something that would maybe fit in the top right corner I think would be more appropriate.  It probably needs a relatively positioned div from the top right, so that it doesn't affect the flow of all other elements within the box. -- Jeff3000 01:09, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I just want to mention that I don't like having this on navigational templates. I have worked on a lot of templates and put a much effort into keeping them small, pleasant to the eyes, and with as few links as possible. But I also don't want to rain on your parade, so I'll leave it as a comment and I won't go around removing it. Cuñado  -  Talk  04:00, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Cuñado, thanks for joining the conversation. It seems you follow the logic for this new template. The amount of time other editors have put into making templates is not to be discounted but without this new generalized functionality, the less experienced Wikipedians are hard pressed to be able alter them. This template has been made small and discreet so as to not in fact be the focus of a given Nav guide. The way that this new functionality has so far been added to the Navigation guides is a bit generic and all Navigation guides have been treated equally with it. If you feel that something could be done to better incorporate this template into any particular Navigational guide then by all means be bold and make some changes. Netscott 06:48, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Test edi for a very small edit link. Nav boxes without any link at all to themselves are dubious, but is only one of several existing solutions. --&#160;Omniplex 06:31, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Propose to remove the parameter
I am proposing to change the template syntax (of this template) such that it doesnt require editors to pass template name when used in templates. This can be achieved by using  instead of. After changing, one can simply insert, without passing any parameter, to other templates. --Oblivious 15:42, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Oblivious, thanks for contributing to the talk page but please don't feel obligated to do so, the old "be bold" applies in template space too no? That actually might make sense and I considered doing that myself but I was concerned that the would be taken from a particular article's page name. Give it a try by all means. :-) Netscott 17:02, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It does yeah! but if I change it now, the templates using this (Tnavbar) will cease to work. So either we use condition-based parameters OR remove the parameters from existing templates manually (oh god, there are MANY) after bringing the changes. Bright ideas, anyone? --Oblivious 17:15, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I've accidentially added unecessary parameters on previous templates with no ill effects...so I'm not sure that this would be a problem... what about just attempting your change and see what happens (in an extremely briefly way!)? Netscott 17:21, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah... it works :) --Oblivious 17:33, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It did seem like it worked... but I just did some checking and it didn't... I'm thinking that the parameter is going to be the best way to go unless some decent logic can be included to make the necessary distinction. I wonder if something like exists? :-)  Netscott 18:19, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think we can come up with something using Qif_conditionals. --Oblivious 18:33, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Ok, that's fine... let's experiment with the new template I've just created though for now: Template:Tnavbar-mini as this template is now displaying on nearly 20,000 pages. Netscott 18:39, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I did check it with few times and it appeared to work, then. Lets define the breaking you experienced in more detail? --Oblivious 18:43, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * :) Fair enough, I went to a couple of articles and found that when I'd go and edit the template on that article the article's title would come up. Unfortunately you probably did your initial test on Template:Islam (and probably looked at Islam for confirmation) well in that instance it worked. I checked Abhidhamma and found that when I went to edit the template I was directed to Template:Abhidhamma... very wrong.. :-). Netscott 18:51, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I've gone through Templates, Advanced templates and Variables and I dont think we can do achieve this with what we have now (MediaWiki limitations). There is no way to eliminate the parameter. --Oblivious 19:46, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Aiee, that's unfortunate as it would be ultimately cool to be able to just slap in a and be done with it. I've just made some changes to both Template:Tnavbar and Template:Tnavbar-mini that allow surfers to hover their mice over the link and have some explanatory "title" text pop-up. Maybe you can take a look at that on a given article page and tell me what  you think of the wording? Netscott 19:50, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It looks nice that way... however I think it'd be more user-friendly to use Edit this box, instead of Edit this navigational template ? Basically replace the word template with the word box --Oblivious 19:55, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you're right but my thinking was to use Wikipedia terminology to better educate editors... but the difference is virtually a non-issue for me so feel free to make the changes. Netscott 19:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should make the text more like that which pops up when hovering one's mouse over the "edit this page" link (for example). Netscott 20:04, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Three quick hints:
 * If a parameter isn't needed anymore just ignore it, updating all pages using a redundant parameter would be a PITA.
 * Using  is possible, see ParserFunctions, but not what you want here.
 * AFAIK you can't get rid of the parameter unless you restrict the template to must be subst'ed, see also m:Help:Substitution. --&#160;Omniplex 23:41, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Not too keen on the Subst idea to be honest... Tnavbar's still evolving a bit (as is Template:Tnavbar-mini). I don't see big problem with adding one parameter myself. Netscott 23:54, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I've checked "subst"-magic for a different purpose (timestamps) now, it works only if the template itself is subst'ed. The best you can get without subst (where required) is a "missing subst" warning. --&#160;Omniplex 23:47, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Template:Edi

 * Copied / moved from my userpage because I won't tolerate on the affected pages. --&#160;Omniplex 23:47, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Greetings, I see you are going around and swapping out examples of for the template you created. Would you kindly refrain from doing that? The Tnavbar templates are more comprehensive than Edi as Edi only allows for access to edit a given template rather than allowing for a more complete access (viewing, discussion) also the template that Edi is based upon was originally developed with the (+/-) for cross-language portability on the international Mediawiki, not the English Wikipedia. I'm reverting your edits that counter my edits to include Tnavbar templates. If you had concerns that was too big, I've allayed those concerns by creating Template:Tnavbar-mini. Thanks. Netscott 11:09, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Just to inform you, myself and a few other editors have produced some additional classes of Tnavbar since I left the above message which you might want to peruse at Template:Tnavbar. Thanks. Netscott 22:28, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * NAK, for various reasons is completely unsuited for the affected project templates - it's too big, not only the output, also the code with weird colours unrelated to any colour scheme on these project templates, it introduces unnecessary Unicode on pure ASCII pages, and for some cases like "policylist" I seriously doubt that a very visible edit link is a good idea. I fixed various things on those templates, also the width, broken , the height by eliminating unnecessary empty lines, and the floating align=right for old browsers, and I added a category for templates using the style (mainly colour scheme) chosen by Gareth Aus. Thanks for the credits for  and family, but they were not my idea, I only tuned them to use "fullurl:" like I did with . --&#160;Omniplex 23:35, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Omniplex thanks for sharing your concerns here. If you properly follow my wording, I in fact demonstrate my awareness of Edi's orgins. I'm not really following your logic about the color scheme as just looks odd with the unclear (+/-) scheme and the arrow making it look as if it's an external link. The only part of your arguments that seem to make any sense is the bit about unecessary Unicode on pure ASCII pages... but are there really that many affected users? Seems a bit like much ado about nothing. I realize that the Tnavbar's are new but with the exception of yourself there has only been one or two other voices of discontent (with other editor's concerns with the original Tnavbar having been addressed with the new classes). Is there anyone else who's sharing your concerns? Netscott 00:31, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Spacing
I'm not digging this template. It's ruining the arrangment on some articles like Hinduism in China.--Dangerous-Boy 18:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Please fix the spacing of the navbar or I will remove it from the template:Hinduism small. It's screwing up the spacing in articles with pics such as Hinduism in China.--Dangerous-Boy 23:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * problem solved.--Dangerous-Boy 01:43, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

This template
I would really suggest one use this template very very rarely. Most of the time putting links to "edit, talk and view" are not necessary and they are highly distracting. This template has its uses, but please do not use it unless you really feel it must be there.

This is a thing which happens a lot on Wikipedia. Somebody comes with a good idea, and then that idea gets abused, and then one wishes this idea did not come to start with. So please, use this template sparingly. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 18:51, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I very much agree. Cuñado  [[image:Bahaitemplatestar.png|20px]] -  Talk  19:23, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Just for full disclosure here. User:Oleg Alexandrov posted here after responding to a series of ill-advised Tnavbar placements by User:66.229.182.113. So in light of that, such commentary as above is entirely understandable. ←Netscott→ 19:31, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I've just reverted the edits of this user that didn't correspond correctly to the utilization of Tnavbar. ←Netscott→ 19:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you for very much. I'm sorry for screwing things up: I wasn't aware that the Tnavbar should only be used for certain templates, nor did I intend to disrupt other people's work. I was just working under the impression that templates should have a link to editing them, and that the Tnavbar was optimal for that purpose. 66.229.182.113 22:38, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

When should this be used?
One thing I'm unclear on, having seen these "view, talk, edit" buttons pop up on lots of templates recently, is when to use this and when to use Template:Edit (and its related templates). I prefer to have just the one "edit" link, or even just a "view" link. I find sometimes this particular template gives an excessive air of self-referentiality. Can the page be updated to give guidance on when and where it can be used, and where it shouldn't be used, with examples? And what the pros and cons are of the different styles of "edit buttons" that are available. Thanks. Carcharoth 02:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Long and short of it in one parameter
I like this template and would like to see what people think of some ideas I have.

I would like to change this This box: [ view ] • [ talk ] • [ edit ]

To this

Basically include a long parameter and then start to combine some of the templates. Would if be possible to have a div or nodiv parameter as well? As this is a big change I though I would be bold in suggesting it and cautious in applying it. Rex the first talk 00:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)


 * So the idea is to use one template, but control its behaviour/appearance by parameters? I like the idea. --Oblivious

Now I have added it this code (but aslo included nodiv) should I deprecate the other templates, e.g., , ? If it works I might include plain as a parameter! Rex the first talk 18:10, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'm just a touch busy.... which is why I haven't responded here previously...at first glance these changes make sense but I've reverted them as I'd prefer to see the changes made on a sandbox version first and applied to some test templates prior to actually going online to work out any bugs. Tnavbar is actually integrated in a number of various kinds of templates (ie: it has been massaged to work with) and making such changes is likely breaking these massaged instances. Forgive me if I seem clueless but I don't see where these changes were done in a sandbox fashion previously. (→ Netscott ) 08:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Thats fine, I did 'extensive' sandbox tests in. Here you can see these tests working:

If you are happy with them I will implment them again. If not then we can talk about it here. The most important test is this, is it backwards compatable (will all the pages that use it without the optinal parameters of nodiv and short still work)? Test here.

It would not damage any pages, I had checked some pages it was transcluded on and it appeared fine. Rex the first talk 09:51, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, the other valid concern is taxing the servers. One of the advantages to having a suite of Tnavbar templates has to do with the fact that they tend to be represented across several thousand pages. What that means is that each time one of those thousands of pages is pulled up... in addition to calculating the necessary bit for the template with this addtional parsing going on the servers have to do additional work. I'm not sure to what extent the gravity of this is a factor in how one should be coding a template but it merits investigation. (→ Netscott ) 09:59, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it is safe to say that a template call merits the same server load if it to template (a) or template (b) the only difference is that if template (a) is called 10 times then it will be in the browser cache and will cause less server load than a call to ten separate templates. On the issue of the parser functions load on the servers, I think it would be better raised in parser functions than on templates that use them (as all the, , .... ect use them). The problem was disscussed on before they were implemented and they have not caused major problems (as far as I know). Rex the first talk 10:19, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * As per Meta Cache page, I don't think server load would be an issue here. --Oblivious 13:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Now I have implemented the code do you think we should add a note to the other templates about this? Rex the first talk 22:49, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Something is not right yet. When I used on WWIIGermanShips, a line break was added. That wasnt suppose to happen with nodiv version. --Oblivious 20:31, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I think I have fixed it. The code had a return or two it wasn't meant too. Rex the first talk 23:20, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

id's
Do these id's serve a purpose? &brvbar; Reisio 20:59, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Tnavbar getting too complicated?
Greetings fellow editors. In the past day or so there's been some significant editing with one editor adding a link to history, another adding a template for spacing and &middot; and another who added a style code to be able to insert CSS code. All of this strikes me as over-complication. I suggest we just return to this 21:18, 16 October 2006 version. Thoughts? (→ Netscott ) 09:58, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep it as simple as possible and as minimal as possible. Agree with you --Oblivious 16:03, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Red links
Is there a reason why the View & Talk links on the template are coded to never be red? --Dispenser 22:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The blue color is for uniformity with normal Wikipedia link color. (→ Netscott ) 23:23, 29 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You miss understood my question. I was asking why if the talk page is non-existent, the talk link is blue where else it is normally red.  It would seem to me that what's preventing it is   and use something like   instead.  So is there any reason why this template isn't using this? --Dispenser 05:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps so... Tnavbar wasn't really meant to call attention to missing [red link] talk pages. I'm inclined to think that red links appearing on templates would just be distracting from the rest of the links on the template. No? (→ Netscott ) 00:28, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well we could at least do it on the view link. It would reduce the amount of code and help users if they miss type the template name.  --Dispenser 03:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You're absolutely right... I've implemented this change. As I recall when originally formulating Tnavbar I was shooting for a uniformity of link appearance. This is the main reason that I gave the links color attributes (particularly the edit link...which is a light blue if not given a color attribute)... so I just did it for them all... but relative to your logic that really doesn't make sense. (→ Netscott ) 11:14, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Question:

On my browser the discussion links above show up as blue with a red underline (which looks a bit odd). Anyone else seeing that? (→ Netscott ) 12:20, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * It was because you forgot to remove the  tag for the talk links. --Dispenser 14:42, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually that was my intention for the talk links to show up blue... but strangely the underline part of the links shows up as red on my browser. (→ Netscott ) 15:11, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * In case anyone is wondering why I'm so quick to not support red talk pages appearing it is because unlike needed articles about uncovered subject links that appear in a given article, talk page links are not really "needing" to be filled when they appear smack dab in the middle of a given article via a template (as opposed to a standard red talk page link above a given article with no talk page). Does that make sense? (→ Netscott ) 15:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * It's not a bug, it's a feature!!!!111oneone It's showing up red due to the :hover element which underlines it acting on the outside element thus c ausing it come up re d. Of course HTML/CSS has all sort quirks.  --Dispenser 07:09, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It shows with a red underline when transcluded into pages that don't exist (I know, it can't happen unless you're previewing a page you haven't yet hit the "save" key on since you created it) ot on discussion pages that don't exist (again, only when discussion of the template hasn't yet begun, which is the most likely thing to happen). the reason the link shows this way ISN'T because of Wikipedia's standard linking, but in fact is due to all transcluded links operate in this way.
 * --lincalinca 08:31, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Adding a fontcolor attribute
I'm thinking that much like Template:Tnavbar-header there should be an option for folks to be able to specify a font color for the links with a default being blue. Opinions on this? (→ Netscott ) 15:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Support per previous discussion on Template talk:Tnavbar-rugby --Bob 16:54, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

So has this been incorporated or not? And if yes, then can someone pls tell me how its done? --Bluerain talk 06:37, 3 March 2007 (UTC) This hasn't been done, but I would like it done so that I can move a bunch of templates over to the Navbar generic template. --Bob 23:43, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm working on it right now. I should have the changes ready to go shortly. 23:51, 16 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Netscott's amended code now in place. David Kernow (talk) 05:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

v·d·e or v?
Do we actually need all three links? Simply using v for view allows to edit and discuss within two mouse clicks and avoids a lot of headaches, both for designing and using navboxes. ~ trialsanderrors 08:28, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Greeting Trialsanderrors, welcome to the Tnavbar discussion area. The main reason that there are v·d·e links is primarily to better correspond to standard links found on any given page. Having the three readily available provides for immediacy that having just "v" doesn't allow for. You should know that there's no particular stipulation that a given template needs to have Tnavbar added to it... it's really meant to be optional but obviously has proven fairly popular with template editors. Perhaps there's a template you're working on that either myself or another Tnavbar regular might be able to assist you with? (→ Netscott ) 10:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * A thought just came to mind. A "micro" version option could be integrated into the template that would allow for just a "v". Right now to specify that "v·d·e" displays one must add "mini=1" to the template call. Well the same could be done only the magic word would be "micro" so the template call would have "micro=1" which would allow for just a "v" to display. That might be the optimal solution for what you are talking about. (→ Netscott ) 11:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Hello, I've been following the discussion at Template talk:Navigation recently . I think the tnavbar is a stroke of genius but it causes some problems with centering the header text, plus it might make editing just a tad bit too easy... Maybe folks should view the template first before they click on the edit button? In any case, just a proposal to keep it as simple as possible (as mentioned above). ~ trialsanderrors 20:23, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll have to take a look at Template talk:Navigation and see how I might be able to help out over there. Based upon our discussion here I've gone ahead and incorporated a simple option and a simple  option. To implement them here's the necessary code:  for the simple "v" option and  for the simple "view" option. Hope that helps. :-) (→ Netscott ) 20:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I'll put it in where I see fit. I'd say vde makes sense when the template is still work in progress or where information changes frequently. All stable templates should better go with v. ~ trialsanderrors 07:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Seconded, I think... although if a template seems stable, is there any need to include even the "v"...? Regards, David Kernow (talk) 04:19, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually I tend to revisit even the ones that are stable, and digging out a template name from the source text is quite a bit of a hassle. I guess I should've said semi-stable, like Game theory, where new links are added infrequently but it's not really under development anymore. ~ trialsanderrors 04:57, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

A major part of the reasoning for why I created this template was to discourage ownership of template space by template editing cabals. I have heard concerns about vandalism before. Perhaps this template has been lucky but since its creation in May of this year there has been essentially no significant reports (off the top of my head I can't even think of one) of Tnavbar related vandalism. I now tend to put Tnavbar on most any navigational template  regardless of my earlier concerns of ownership because what I have noticed is that templates that carry Tnavbar attract more editing attention and I can honestly say there are improved from that. This is not to say that I don't think that vandalism concerns are valid but I honestly don't think Tnavbar is doing anything more to facilitate such acts. Just like all pages on wikipedia (and let's face it templates are just special kinds of pages) when vandalism presents itself folks take the necessary measures to reduce its effects though semi-protection/blocking/full protection etc. I really don't fully support the idea of just utilizing "v" or "view" links on templates because I think a big part of Wikipedia is spontaneity and being able to do something right away. The simple "v" and "view" links quash this spontaneity in my view. That said, I do see the usefulness of having that option which is why I integrated it into Tnavbar but I think such an option should only go into effect if a given template has some history of being targetted for vandalism. (→ Netscott ) 05:12, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Per your experimentation below, I agree that access to any but the most vulnerable (utility) templates should be open by default and only hindered, restricted or blocked if/when a template becomes a target for vandalism, POV-pushing, strings of reverts, etc – or, I guess, if it has a history of any of these... Regards, David (talk) 06:28, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think restricting options to "view" only encourages ownership. A lot of templates have noinclude instructions on the project page which editors should consider before making changes. This has nothing to do with ownership, but with consideration. ~ trialsanderrors 21:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Template name
Since this template might be used in templates other than navigation templates, suggest it is given a less cryptic name, e.g. Titlebar. Any thoughts...? Thanks, David Kernow (talk) 00:04, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually as I recall from formulating it, the name was meant to be an abbreviation for "Template navigation bar"... meaning a bar to navigate templates themselves. That was back when the template was just the longer bar shaped variety: . In that light I think the Tnavbar name is still appropriate for any template. (→ Netscott ) 00:24, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Fair enough; I've now left an expansion at the top of the /docs for anyone else interested! Best wishes, David (talk) 04:14, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

coding question
Hello folks... I borrowed some of the code used here for use in this page, but I'm stuck on one part. How the heck do you get rid of that pesky little "outside link" symbol (the one next to the word 'this' above) when using the magic word? Thanks! -- Eykanal 05:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * On Wikipedia there is a and  class type called "plainlinks"...I don't think all Wikis support this class type. This class type is found in this Wikipedia CSS skin. (→ Netscott ) 05:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * That worked... thanks! (That's so cool...) -- Eykanal 14:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

id attribute causes bugs
The fixed id="Tnavbar" attribute in this template is causing invalid HTML output for pages that use this template more than once. Each id attribute MUST be unique in a HTML document. I suggest that this id attribute be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.50.0.46 (talk • contribs)
 * Seeing as the id tags have been questioned previously I've gone ahead and removed them. Hope that helps. (→ Netscott ) 12:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Possible new Tnavbar concept
Greetings fellow Tnavbar editors, I thought of a simpler way to implement Tnavbar. This idea will allow editors to include whatever Wikipedia options they want on a given template. I've made preliminary templates corresponding to this idea and I wanted to see what folks thought. Check it out:

These are produced by the following code.


 * Then the same thing only for the "view" style Tnavbar:

I'm thinking this might be the future of Tnavbar... this new system is very universal and easy to understand so it should be easy for editors to adopt. Thoughts?
 * Please do not start using these templates just yet (if ever) as they are each a work in progess but by all means feel free to edit them. :-) (→ Netscott ) 01:54, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Could be nifty – thanks for experimenting, Netscott – anyone else...? Regards, David Kernow (talk) 06:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * One other thing, the order of links can be whatever editor's prefer (except for the "v" or "view"... they'll always be first in the current templates). It's just a matter of which options come first. See: which corresponds to  . The other thing, please don't hesitate to experiment with these templates. I only ask to refrain from implementing them as we reach a consensus about how they should be. Thanks. (→ Netscott ) 06:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Hide
Is it possible to add the hide option in to this to simplify the hiding of infoboxes? (Emperor 19:07, 14 December 2006 (UTC))
 * Hello Emperor, I would recommend you employ which has [hide] built into it (as well as Tnavbar).  21:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Editprotected Requests
Could we apply  to the outer div/span of the template. This way the self-links are bold next to non-bold link and it matches the [hide]/[show] in headers which also has this style applied to it. --Dispenser 21:21, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure. Ashibaka (tock) 21:11, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

editprotected Since the addition of the fontcolor parameter there's been a small ascetic bug where the bullet are black if, this is a problem with dark backgrounds. The problem is exhibited on the second example at CFB navbox. Change where  to   early in the code to fix it. —Dispenser 06:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * done. &mdash; Carl (CBM · talk) 15:51, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

v-d-e link titles
Just a minor note... the link titles used in this template shouldn't end in full stops (periods). It looks wrong and goes against the usage of other link titles. BigBlueFish 15:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * There's no periods in link titles. The link reads v • d • e . Unless I'm misunderstanding what BigBlueFish is saying here I see no need for a change. 15:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I think BBF is talking about the yellow tags that appear when you hover over a link, e.g. Move this template vs Move this template. ~ trialsanderrors 19:53, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah ok thanks for the explanation trialsanderrors. That's a pretty minor point, essentially a non-issue. If that's all it is then such an edit makes sense. 21:29, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I changed the 'view' and 'discuss' notes, but left 'edit' as, "You can edit this template. Please use the preview button before saving.", because it uses two complete sentences. --CBD 12:22, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Perfect :) --BigBlueFish 19:29, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * These little letters are confusing, especially when seen before the navbox title (example). They should be positioned to the far right. - dcljr (talk) 00:33, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately that would cause a conflict with any [show]/[hide] link placed there, otherwise I might agree... When a [show]/[hide] link is in place, I guess it might be possible to place the v-d-e to its left, but not sure (a) how tricky that is to code, or (b) whether I or other folk would be keen on it... Regards, David Kernow (talk) 04:05, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

T = Edit?
Why does the T(alk) link automatically make you edit the talk page? Wouldn't one want to loko at it first, even if there were going to edit it? For example, take what I'm doing here. I had a comment on tnavbar, which I was going to make an edit for–but I looked over the page to see if it had already been addressed. It's rather confusing when one clicks a link for the talk page and ends up editing it. (If you can't tell, I need sleep.) &mdash; SheeEttin {T/C} 03:44, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * This would only happen if a talk page didn't already exist. 04:05, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Then shouldn't it appear red? &mdash; SheeEttin {T/C} 23:11, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Tnavbar's not really meant to draw attention to red links. Ordinarily a given red link will appear blue with a red underline on it. The problem with red links is that when Tnavbar appears in a header for a given template the red becomes very distractive. 23:30, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

HELP!!A pure bar without ParserFunctions
Please,help me extracting a pure tnavbar without those confusing parser functions. Post them in my user page in   ,THXErikkkk 12:21, 28 April 2007 (UTC)


 * For what purpose? You can see the version before parsers were added but leaning parser functions would be better! Here is the version before parsers. Rex the first talk 15:40, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * You could also use the |Name%20of%20template&#125;&#125;&removecomments=1 Expand template function. But it isn't a good idea since it wont be updated, see Wp:subst —Dispenser 16:49, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't like the "v - d - e"
I really don't like it. I'm sure it makes things easier for editors, but to casual readers (the vast VAST VAST majority of people viewing a page) it's totally meaningless. Heck, to casual editors it's meaningless. If I had my way it would be either "[edit]" or nothing at all. 222.127.77.80 10:50, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You don't like it, but it's unobtrusive, which is how we like it. We don't want the vast vast vast majority of people editing the templates because some of them use esoteric terms (especially these ones) which can be easily muddled if used wrongly. The other thing is that simply having "edit" leaves out the option to simply view and discuss the template and only offers to edit it. -- linca linca  06:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Template starts on a new line
When I insert this template, it won't stay on the line I put it on no matter what I try, it inserts a break. It's making my Template:Japan Nuclear Plants look very ugly. How do I fix this? -Theanphibian (talk • contribs) 18:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You want to use tnavbar-header and you should also use class="navbox" for navboxes. I've gone ahead made made those changes for you.  —Dispenser 19:10, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It's really small now... but I guess that's how it's supposed to be. All the problems are fixed now, thanks. -Theanphibian (talk • contribs) 19:23, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Guideline for when to use the template
Is there any guideline for when to use this? I've seen it showing up on a lot of templates recently. We should avoid self-referenes like this as much as possible. Would it be possible to display the links only to logged in users, just the edit links on sections? --Apoc2400 04:30, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Design improvements
Would anyone object to changing the black bullets (normally used as list-item markers) to middle dots, which are often used as typographical dividers? This would make the edit links less obtrusive and make more sense. (In the mini version, the bullets have more typographic weight on the page than the v/d/e links themselves, and at a glance it looks like there are five mouse-click targets.)

Also, how about adding square brackets, to help the reader tell that these are self-referential elements, like an article's section [edit] links?

Currently:
 * #|view • #|talk • #|edit
 * #|v • #|d • #|e

Proposed:
 * &#91;#|view · #|talk · #|edit&#93;
 * &#91;#|v · #|d · #|e&#93;

The tool-tip title for "e" should be rewritten as an action phrase, not a short essay.

Current tool-tips:
 * view: "View this template"
 * talk: "Discussion about this template"
 * edit: "You can edit this template. Please use the preview button before saving."

Even the ubiquitous article section edit links are to the point:


 * [edit]: "Edit section: Section name"

I propose a simple action phrase, starting with "Edit", which the mini "e" stands for:


 * edit: "Edit this template"

Or if it's possible to insert the template's name, it may help the editor orient themselves:


 * view: "View Template:ThisTemplate"
 * talk: "Template talk:ThisTemplate"
 * edit: "Edit Template:ThisTemplate"

By the way, why is "talk" (a link to the talk: namespace) abbreviated "d"? —Michael Z. 2007-10-03 20:53 Z 


 * Support. But I suggest making the brackets an optional parameter. For small template, the header text usually stick too close to the tnavbar. I wonder why no more user responds to this suggestion. -- Sameboat - 同舟 (talk) 12:47, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * As the original creator of this template I think the brackets idea makes sense although I'm not 100% sure that they should be the default condition for display. I certainly see no issue for making the brackets optional. As far as the wording is concerned everything stems from the wording one finds on the tool tips of the editor centric links found for editing a given template (try hovering over template editor links and you'll see what I mean). As far as the discussion/talk issue this has to do again with the norms of Wikipedia being that this is a "d iscussion" link that leads to a "talk" page. In the expanded view it made more sense to just use the word "talk" as opposed to the abbreviation "disc.". 18:26, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Code cleanup / style parameter
This template is being hevily used in navbox and it derivatives. Most of these employ a 'style' parameter to give it custom coloring. However, this proves incompatible with Tnavbar's fontcolor parameter, making the v.d.e links stand out or even be invisible. Now there is a style parameter here, but it does not work on the links. Plus I discovered some redundant code. So I plan to do a litle cleanup and make the style parameter a bit more effective so it becomes compatible with navbox' titlestyle parameter, hopefully making the code more eligable in the process. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 18:09, 26 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The style parameters now applies to all elements in the template. The fontcolor parameter still overrides this, so you now have two ways of setting the font color, making it compatible with templates using either method. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 19:44, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * This is even worse than what you told me. When I first added the style parameter it was for absolute positioning of the tnavbar in navboxes.  You've taken my example and hard coded workaround for them.  You'll have to implement the whole CSS namespace to make it work that way.  In the future put an edit protection request before editing that way another admin look over the changes.  —Dispenser 21:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Every edit has the potential to break things. I thought I filtered out all positioning CSS, but I forgot the float (did I miss anything else?) That's all. So please don't panic when something goes booboo; in worst case scenario, it can always be reverted. I know what the problem is now, so I'm going to put the fix in. I'll also be working on it further in my sandbox to remove the redundant code and optimize further. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 21:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * You suppose to use the template sandbox, and write test cases. If you want a list it right at W3C.  This is making the template bloat.  Your wasting resource by editing, for human and the machine resources which include the job queue length and database memory.  —Dispenser 22:07, 5 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm working in my sandbox now. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 22:55, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, I thouroughly debugged it, there should be no more errors. I'll keep working on optimizing the code in the sandbox, as it still suffers from bloat (though I have taken out some of it). — Edokter  •  Talk  • 00:30, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Understand that this is an ugly-ugly hack, it can only work if you implement the all the CSS properties. In fact, outside of a group of a few people colored v-d-e isn't wanted in navbox, just look at the original discussion in navbox generic, it died because nobody cared enough to request to put it in.  You've broken tnavbar-navframe.  I'll be looking into alternative action for you.  —Dispenser 06:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Instead of threatening "action" against me, you could just tell me what the problem is... Let me investigate. Frankly, putting the style parameter in solely for the purpose of floating was a bad mistake to begin with, as it now clearly turns out that it blocks every improvement on this template. Maybe that should be moved to a different parameter. —  Edokter  •  Talk  • 10:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * There, all fixed. I moved the font styling to the "fontstyle" parameter. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 10:33, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Spacing issue
The changes from today made the v.d.e. go vertical instead of horizontal fixing using my user page sandbox - User talk:Trödel/Sandbox1 will contain the template Tnavbar for resolving the issue and User:Trödel/Sandbox1 will transclude User talk:Trödel/Sandbox1 to verify that the solution works. -- Trödel 20:40, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * What exactly was the problem? — Edokter  •  Talk  • 20:51, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Never mind, I see the problem. Forgot to reset float. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 20:58, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you - I was having difficulty figuring it out between phone calls and other work :) -- Trödel 14:03, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * The font style has been moved out of the main style parameter anyway, so it shouldn't cause any more problems. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 16:14, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

What is a vemplate?
In my opinion, v & view should be t and template, because the tabs at the top of a template page are: template, discussion and sometimes "view source". 68.164.57.251 (talk) 01:40, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, maybe "temp" because that at least makes sense; "view" you have to get used to.--68.164.57.251 (talk) 06:27, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I think v should be changed to t for temp, and view should be changed to temp for template, because then the meaning would be immediately understandable and there would be no confusion with "view source."--68.164.57.251 (talk) 06:36, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * First thing that came to mind is "temporary" or "temperature", so "temp" is out. There are also other vde templates that use "v", so it is regarded the defacto convention. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 12:39, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

(semi)protected templates
In a similar vein to the above, would it be possible to have code that would determine if the user had edit privileges for the template, and, if not, turn the text for "e" and "edit" links into "s" and "source" links? This would give quick way to see if a template is editable or not. ~ Paul T +/C 18:08, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Not possible I'm afraid. A template can't see if an editor has edit rights. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 20:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Bugs incl. mysterious nbsp within style
The template's first DIV currently (and already for some time) generates this in the HTML source:

Apparently including elsewhere is OK; so could somebody take a look whether the space in code's   isn't a forgotten Unicode nbsp?

While you're at it, you might remove trailing semicolons, and move optional bits together at the end, so there aren't too many ";;" in the code. Anyway, the thrice repeated

span style="color:#002bb8;;"

is Evil; change it to

style="color: ;"

Is it necessary to repeat fontstyle at all, wouldn't inheritance from the main div be enough? And couldn't the doubled div/span switching be optimised by using (if nodiv=1 then display:inline?) --Malyctenar (talk) 14:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is a necessary evil because the fontcolor should override the fontstyle, which in turn should override the default color, so this is the only way. I'll have a look abou the nbsp, but the extra semi-colons aren't really a bug; it's a product of style elements overriding eachother. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 14:51, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * BTW, are you sure the &amp;#160; isn't passed by some other template? — Edokter  •  Talk  • 14:54, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course I am: take a look at (so it happens even within span, interesting). No, the semicolons are a product of being stuffed in at too many places, and could be in a large part fixed as shown. --Malyctenar (talk) 17:03, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Your fix would break the overriding mechanism needed to ensure proper coloring of the v-d-e links. The extra semicolons are not a problem; they are just there to ensure proper closing of CSS parameters. As for the #160, I am a bit stumped, but I will have to take a closer look when I have my dev toolbar at hand. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 20:21, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * ❌ This thing's got 638,000 links. Work out what needs changing and how to change it without breaking anything else   Happy‑melon 21:04, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, nothing is broken, so there's no need to change anything perse. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 22:15, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Can someone tell me how the "638,000" number was arrived at? That seems like an awfully big number. Thanks. 66.127.181.91 (talk) 04:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


 * This template is transcluded on practically every article that has a navbox, which is nearly half of all the articles. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 10:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't like the "v - d - e" either
Some of my favourite navigation boxes have been converted to the Navbox template, and now they have these vde links, which I find very annoying. I would like to remove these; however, I can understand why other people like to have direct access to these links. Is it possible to add a special CSS class to these links? For example, if the span around these links is changed to:

<span class="noprint plainlinksneverexpand tnavbar-links" ...

I can disable these links by putting

.tnavbar-links {display:none}

in my personal monobook.css. That would make me very happy :-) Does anyone have any objections to this? -- Eugène van der Pijll (talk) 14:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I've just noticed: as long as there is no other "noprint" material in the navbox,

table.navbox div.noprint {display:none}
 * does the trick. -- Eugène van der Pijll (talk) 14:43, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You can also add "navbar = plain" to the template to hide the links. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 15:32, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Sloppy code / restoration of functionality
Greetings, I've prepared a new version of Tnavbar to be transfered into place from this version of the sandbox. This new version prevents sloppy hanging semicolons and/or empty style="" tags from entering into code via empty ; or empty ; portions of the old code by making both "style" and "fontstyle" dependent upon conditionals. As well this updated version restores some lost "ifexist" functionality that previously allowed for a "visited" link color to display for a talk page if it existed and had been previously visited by a Wikipedian and also cancels out a double "color" call for the edit link when fontcolor is defined. Would someone kindly institute this version? This newer version has been thoroughly developed in the Tnavbar sandbox and thoroughly reviewed in the Tnavbar test cases area. Thanks. 86.212.87.160 (talk) 03:03, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * For reference; these are the changes. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 12:02, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I appriciate the effort, but your code if full of superfluous #if: and #ifeq: parser function, and even an #ifexist: function, just to prevent the incidental extranious ";" or from leaking into the HTML? With this template being used on 600,000+ pages, can you imagine the extra strain that would be put on the servers? I'm not going to put that in. Other reviews welcome. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 11:59, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * According to the MediaWiki developer Brion Vibber when it comes to editing templates unless changes are constantly occurring "server strain" is not an issue because parser functions are only evaluated when generating page caches. Please see this talk from High-risk_templates. Even on Wikipedia:High-risk templates the following is explained under rationale:
 * Instead of being recompiled instantly, the pages that need to be recompiled are listed in the job queue and are slowly recompiled as other edits are made, spreading out the load. It would be possible to make the job queue extremely large by repeatedly editing a particular highly-used template. This would present only an inconvenience, however, and would not bring down the site.


 * Given this is the case there's really no excuse for sloppy code with extraneous semicolons and empty style tags being left in place due to unfounded "server strain" concerns.


 * No matter what at minimum the lines of the template having the following code:
 * should be changed to:
 * to avoid a double "color" call when is defined. Since editing to make this change is already going to be taking place then just make all of these changes. 86.212.87.160 (talk) 14:04, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * to avoid a double "color" call when is defined. Since editing to make this change is already going to be taking place then just make all of these changes. 86.212.87.160 (talk) 14:04, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * to avoid a double "color" call when is defined. Since editing to make this change is already going to be taking place then just make all of these changes. 86.212.87.160 (talk) 14:04, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I wasn't talking about the job queue; Another performance factor is the preprocessor. You are right that these functions are only evaluated when a page is cache... which happens every time any element of such page is edited. And what that does, these function need to be pre-processed, with #ifexist: being a expensive hit. At least that needs to go.
 * Second, the above example breaks current functionality: it assigns color:#002bb8; if no fontcolor is given, overriding fontstyle. Fontstyle is supposed to override the default color, and the given color in turn is supposed to override any given fontstyle. In your example, the default color overrides any given fontstyle when no color is given, rendering fontstyle useless if color is passed in there. I know it looks convulted, but it is necessary to provide backward compatibility with templates using both methods of styling. Now I hear there are plans to overhaul Tnavbar anyway, and your input is most welcome. But until then, we're not going to fix something that isn't technically broken. — Edokter  •  Talk  • 14:46, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree; at the very least the #ifexist needs to go, as its an expensive function to call, and should be avoided if unnecessary. --CapitalR (talk) 20:33, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Bugs and strange behaviours ?
The handling of parameters in this template seems to be strange - possibly the effects of lots of edits by different people?

Using combinations of parameters, should not cause unexpected results.

For example: | viewplain = 1 | mini     = 1

should be the same as: | miniv    = 1

but it is not?

Compare from the former:

with from the latter:

Code change:

 the Wikipedia cache of this template.

should fix the problem? Peet Ern (talk) 07:26, 23 July 2008 (UTC)