User talk:CWH/Archive 6

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Ways to improve China White Paper

Hello, CWH,

Thanks for creating China White Paper! I edit here too, under the username Boleyn and it's nice to meet you :-)

I wanted to let you know that I have tagged the page as having some issues to fix, as a part of our page curation process and note that:-

This has been tagged for 2 issues.

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, leave a comment here and prepend it with {{Re|Boleyn}}. And, don't forget to sign your reply with ~~~~ . For broader editing help, please visit the Teahouse.

Delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.

Boleyn (talk) 17:30, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Backlog Banzai

In the month of September, Wikiproject Military history is running a project-wide edit-a-thon, Backlog Banzai. There are heaps of different areas you can work on, for which you claim points, and at the end of the month all sorts of whiz-bang awards will be handed out. Every player wins a prize! There is even a bit of friendly competition built in for those that like that sort of thing. Sign up now at Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/September 2019 Backlog Banzai to take part. For the coordinators, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:18, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Susan L. Mann

Hi CWH, thanks for another much needed article for a well known scholar. I've nominated it for DYK, please see nomination page. Always enjoy reading your articles! -Zanhe (talk) 04:42, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Many thanks once more! I'll do what I can if there are any problems with the DYK. I'm (slowly) working my way through the AAS presidents, though some of the rest will be tough to find much info about. Always appreciate your help!ch (talk) 04:51, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Susan L. Mann

Hello! Your submission of Susan L. Mann at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! feminist (talk) 11:31, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Let's avoid an edit war

I think its fair to discuss your radical changes before you make them I might actually have some points to make. Let's not get into an edit war regarding fully sourced scholarly material that I added. The rule on Wikipedia is not to remove fully sourced material even if you should disagree with the importance of missionary activities in Chinese history. If you have alternative sources aren't alternative interpretations based on solid scholarship, please add them. Rjensen (talk) 05:37, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

DYK for Susan L. Mann

On 10 October 2019, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Susan L. Mann, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that American historian Susan L. Mann won the Fairbank Prize for exploring the roles of elite women and same-sex social relationships in Chinese history? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Susan L. Mann. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, Susan L. Mann), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Samwalton9 (talk) 00:02, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Têng Ssu-yü

Thanks for the link to Têng Ssu-yü. I fondly remember attending his amazing feasts for Chinese New Year in Bloomington. Rjensen (talk) 06:31, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm jealous! He was very kind and helpful to me on several occasions, but I never had the pleasure of dining with him. I was happy to create his page, which I notice has not yet been assessed.ch (talk) 00:10, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Boxer rebellion

I've added the missing source. Please don't blind revert. Thank you. GraemeKad (talk) 11:32, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the "heads up," GraemeKad. You were right to want a better explanation of the origins in the lead, and with your inspiration I added one. But the information I cut was neither correct nor well sourced. Guenon's book East and West is cited as "2004" but it was originally published in French in 1924. The back cover says it "diagnoses the fundamental 'abnormality' of Western civilization." It is thus almost a century old; a book-length essay on India, China, and Japan; gives no references or sources. Please see WP:RELIABLE SOURCE before you use material that appears to have been turned up in a random search of the internet.
By the way, Guenon is also quite racist: "the forms in which her [China's] doctrines are expressed are really too far removed from the Western mentality," etc etc. (p. 148).
The passage you quoted (which should have been paraphrased in any case) is quite confused (it is on p. 73 here. It gives no dates, but appears to perhaps refer to the killing of a "German Minister," Von Kettleler, which took place in Peking in June 1990, not in Juye in 1897. But Juye was in Shandong, not in the "outbuildings of the German legation." In any case the incident Guenon describes has nothing to do with the Juye Incident, detailed accounts which are in Esherick or Cohen, both books that I have held in my hands and examined as I write.
I'd be happy to carry on the discussion, but on the Boxer Talk Page.ch (talk) 05:08, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Archive

I see that you attempted to archive stuff, it's really easy, just paste this:

{{User:MiszaBot/config |archiveheader = {{talkarchive}} |maxarchivesize = 50K |counter = 1 |minthreadstoarchive = 1 |algo = old(30d) |archive = User talk:CWH/Archive %(counter)d }} {{Archives}}

(the text as visible in the editor, minus the "nowiki" tags.)

To the top of "your" user talk page, and a bot will automatically archive everything older than a month, you can change the settings any time you like. --Donald Trung (talk) 23:53, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

If you're interested in having an automated archive I could copy and paste this to the top of "your" talk page if you want. Then tomorrow all posts whose latest replies are older than 30 days will be placed in pages like "User talk:CWH/Archive 1". This way nothing will be deleted, but this page will be easier to navigate. --Donald Trung (talk) 07:36, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Niv Horesh (help requested)

Hello, excuse me for bothering you, but around over half a year ago this paper was freely available online, but currently I am not able to access this academic paper and need it for the expansion and creation of several articles on Wikipedia. Do you by any chance have access to it? (Zanhe sent me here, not that I am just randomly contacting you.) --Donald Trung (talk) 08:22, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

(Copied) On an unrelated note, your talk page is quite long, are you familiar with bot-archiving? Or do you just prefer this to be the long scroll that it is? Donald Trung (talk) 08:24, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
I sympathize! I am an Independent Scholar with only occasional access to a university library. I could try for it next time I have a chance to go, so please let me know what it is.
I imagine that you will need it and something else to establish notability for Horesh, which the current page does not appear to do (no problem for me, as I am an "inclusionist," but someone will ask). ch (talk) 23:01, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
Oh, I am also an inclusionist, but it's not about the article Niv Horesh that I need help with, it's the fact that I need this specific academic paper from Springer Link. I had access to it before but did not save the text I need. If you have access to it then you could help me. --Donald Trung (talk) 23:55, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
OK, good, but the link does not specify the article, only the Springer website, which says "SpringerLink is currently unavailable." ch (talk) 02:38, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, SpringerNature is down for me too, it's actually for several articles, most of which aren't written yet, I need the body of the paper itself. Hopefully the website will be up soon. --Donald Trung (talk) 07:40, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
Keep an eye on it and let me know if I can be of help.ch (talk) 15:41, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

March Madness 2020

G'day all, March Madness 2020 is about to get underway, and there is bling aplenty for those who want to get stuck into the backlog by way of tagging, assessing, updating, adding or improving resources and creating articles. If you haven't already signed up to participate, why not? The more the merrier! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:19, 29 February 2020 (UTC) for the coord team

Article on War between Chiang Kai-shek and Li Zongren

Hello, CWH. I have created an article on the Chiang-Gui War, which covers of the 1st 3 months of the 8 month long 1st phase of the Central Plains War. It is significant enough to have articles in the Chinese, Korean and Japanese wikipedias. Please talk to Winertai, the creator of the original articles in Chinese. Many places in China experienced multiple battles throughout the 1st half of the 20th century, which makes the situation very confusing.Jackson767 (talk) 04:11, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

request for re-assessment of articles on Chinese generals

Hello, CWH. Can you do a re-assessment of the articles Zhao Chengshou, Shangguan Yunxiang and Li Yannian (general)? They are currently marked as stubs. I expanded Zhao and Shangguan and Li was expanded in 2009 by another user. If Zhao and Shangguan are de-stubbed, I like to have it added to Wikipedia:WikiProject Asia/The 10,000 Challenge. Jackson767 (talk) 02:45, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi Jackson767. Glad to look at those articles, though I left Li Yannian as a stub. It's good to have these figures added to Wikipedia, but it would be even better to have them follow more of the guidelines. One, for instance, is that you need to indicate in the Edit Summary that the material is from the ZH Wiki.
Another is adding references, which is hard, but if you can't find references somebody will suggest deletion. At the top of several of the articles is the template saying that references are lacking, with links to web searches for the topic.
Please keep up the good work!ch (talk) 21:34, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
Hello, CWH. Thank you very much for your assistance. I have expanded the articles Li Pinxian and He Zhuguo and I think they can be de-stubbed. I also did some work on the article for Gao Shuxun. Can you do a re-assessment for the articles for Han Fuju, Li Hanhun and the Guangzhou Uprising? They are marked as stubs but clearly do not look like stubs.Jackson767 (talk) 18:14, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

1912 incident

Hey- I saw you are a historian who is interested in China, so I thought I might bring up something with you- today I read that Chiang Kai-shek may have shot somebody in 1912 (or at least taken the blame?). Anyway, Wikipedia's coverage of the incident is pitiful, and I would like to find someone who has a historian background to check on this incident if you are interested or know someone who might be interested. Geographyinitiative (talk) 04:08, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi, Geographyinitiative, good to hear from you. I took the liberty of looking at your list of contributions and see that you have made valuable edits in places that have lasting value but are not glamorous, such as adding maps to pages on counties, so I am glad to help.
If the question is about the Tao Chengzhang incident, I checked Jay Taylor's The Generalissimo (Harvard UP, 2009), and it indeed backs up the sentences in the article, so you can remove the "sources needed" template. He concludes that Chiang was "probably not present when the event occurred." (p. 24) But you are right that Taylor's account is skimpy.
Taylor mentions another incident, but not in much detail. Jiang and Chen Qimei
planned the assassination of the hated defense commissioner in Chinese Shanghai, Zheng Ruzheng. On November 10, two gunmen interceptwd Zheng's car on Garden Bridge and killed him with a fusilade of shots. Next, an attak on polic headqurters by 'dare to die' tems led by Chiang and Chen Qimei went badly, and Chen and Chiang barely managed to escape. (p 29)
This was the only incident from around this time I could find in the book. I think you are right that there is more to it than Taylor is interested in. He does have a little on other bellicose incidents, but as far as I can see, no shootings. Let me know if you are still interested, and I'll check a few more places.
Cheers ch (talk) 22:27, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for your kind words. I believe that the historical maps I am adding make it so that the readers of Wikipedia have better resources to use when they want to read old books or confirm historical usages. For the past few days, I have been on a marathon adding postal romanizations and Wade-Giles forms to Wiktionary. I feel that without these maps and these resources, many people effectively can't read books about China-related topics.
Back to the these claims about Chiang and Tao- they are potentially so explosive or extraordinary that I wanted to put a few days between me and the second time I talked about it. I discovered this incident while reading a 1970s psychological profile of Chiang which I was using to provide sources for information about Chiang's youth. Chiang's Wikipedia article has a section describing his youth that was basically totally unsourced until I started adding that source. (Luckily, most of the information seems to be essentially accurate- at least according to the source that says he shot someone! Oh dear.)
I think you are saying that Chiang did not shoot and/or kill Tao based on page 24 of Taylor. However, I don't know exactly how to reword the Wikipedia article as it currently stands because I can't read the pages of Taylor that you are talking about- I can't make changes blind. The Wikipedia passage is somewhat obscurely/poorly worded (from my perspective) so I can't feel confident enough to make any move yet. Based on what you said here, I added the words "Jay Taylor's The Generalissimo (Harvard UP, 2009), "probably not present when the event occurred." (p. 24)" to my 'citation needed span' tag [1].
As for the second incident, I don't dare go near it since I can't see p. 29 on Google Books either (at least at the moment).
Thanks for your informative response. Geographyinitiative (talk) 07:45, 2 June 2020 (UTC) (modified)

Nominations for the 2020 Military history WikiProject Newcomer and Historian of the Year awards now open

G'day all, the nominations for the 2020 Military history WikiProject newcomer and Historian of the Year are open, all editors are encouraged to nominate candidates for the awards before until 23:59 (GMT) on 15 December 2020, after which voting will occur for 14 days. There is not much time left to nominate worthy recipients, so get to it! Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:45, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

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Enhancing Chopsticks

Hey, you contributed significantly to Chopsticks. I think the article can use a holistic revision. I posted a proposal on the talk page. It would be great to have your feedback before or while the revision takes place. Fred Hsu (talk) 20:29, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

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Moby-Dick

Hi, I noticed that you removed for the second time the reference to Robert L. Gale. As I explained the first time a couple of years ago, I used Gale to help me write the plot summary, so even if it is not cited, its relevance should somehow be acknowledged in the article. MackyBeth (talk) 10:32, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

You are right! WP:GENREF says such items should be included in General References. I should have remembered. Maybe put a note in <!==> for future editors? ch (talk) 19:29, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

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Seeking help editing an article

Hi @CWH:

I am a student who is new to Wikipedia. In one of my subjects, I am editing and updating the China-Pakistan Free Trade Agreement article. I saw that you are a member of Wikiproject: China and was wondering if you would be able to provide me with some feedback and help me improve it.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated! :)

S2102sa (talk) 01:39, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Glad to be of help, @S2102sa:, though you are doing a careful and effective job already. I will put a few comments on your TalkPage for future ooptional reference.ch (talk) 03:47, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

@CWH:

Thank you very much! S2102sa (talk) 06:47, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

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Please stop removing content directly related to the article

You have been removing content on Economy of the Song dynasty directly related to the relevant material without proper explanation and facetious reasoning. For example here [2] you deleted a cited quotation directly related to the section about joint trade operation with the reason "remove quote that is hard to understand and whose reference is unlcear", yet in your next edit here [3] you deleted an image along with a cited quote based on the reason "remove interesting quote not related to this section". I am not sure what is hard to understand about either the quote or why you deleted a relevant image on the production of goods, which the section and article relate to in their content. You are either facetious or/and engaged in biased editing. If you can't even understand the quote then you have no business editing the article. Qiushufang (talk) 20:59, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick reply, but this discussion should be on the article's Talk Page, where I have made a comment. I wonder if you might take a little time to cool down and Assume Good Faith. ch (talk) 21:12, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Ming_in_Brahmaputra_Valley_or_Northeast_India

Hi , I saw your edits in Ming dynasty and checked your user page and found that you are a pro historian. Can you help me there Talk:Ming_dynasty#Rule_of_Ming_in_Brahmaputra_Valley_or_Northeast_India 2409:4065:E99:FC09:4C4E:C009:CD22:8A15 (talk) 14:36, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm flattered to be asked! I'll share my thoughts at the Ming Talk Page, so anybody else can join in.ch (talk) 16:58, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
Thank you. I am unable to find any secondary source with much clarity and I don't have any qualification in History to be able to do anything with the finding. 2409:4065:E89:DE03:A809:4E46:970E:8809 (talk) 01:45, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

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Pre-science and pseudoscience

Thanks for your calm and clear comments on the pseudoscience issue at the Feng Shui talk page. I was wondering whether you agree with comments by others afterwards that suggest that Astrology is a different matter and shouldn’t be considered in the same way. To my mind, the extraordinarily varied and enduring significance of Astrology in so many pre-scientific cultures (not just China of course), makes the pseudoscience definition even more inappropriate. Harold the Sheep (talk) 06:28, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Good question! As I said, the concept "pseudo-science" is more rhetorical than analytical. "Pre-science" is another term based on an unexamined acceptance of "science." Ideally, we would not define something in terms of what it came before but look at it (or them) on their own. For instance, cherry picking early modern European scientific thought to find only those elements that seem to lead to "modern" science will leave out other elements that were important at that time and give an unbalanced picture.
I entirely agree that Wikipedia should not endorse or appear to endorse un-scientific claims of traditions such as Feng shui, Traditional Chinese Medicine, and such The lead in such articles must give due prominence to Reliable Sources that debunk the claims of today's practice, but also give a balanced account of their origin. We may be stuck with "pseudo-science." Another comparison is Marxism, which describes its tenets without either endorsement or refutation. Thanks for sending me to Astrology, where the Talk Page makes me think "Yikes!" It will take a while to work these things out, but let's hang in.ch (talk) 18:02, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
Obviously traditions don't need to be endorsed, and if there is actual scientific investigation into specific claims that demonstrate the falsehood of those claims, or if there are claims to scientific status that are obviously fraudulent, then it should be reported and discussed and possibly even labeled pseudoscience. But how much of a subject like Astrology is really about scientific claims or scientific status? Astrology, in many forms and with many aspects and functions, was an integral part of human culture(s) and civilisation(s) for literally thousands of years, going all the way back to human prehistory. Its significance to those cultures, and to humanity in general, is far more complex than whether or not an abstracted, partial definition of it satisfies a modern test for scientific validity. And how much of this massive subject has actually been properly scientifically investigated anyway, according to a conscientious application of the scientific method? I don't really know, but I would guess that the answer is very little of it. And yet the first words of the Wikipedia article on Astrology are "Astrology is a pseudoscience..." I guess I should be discussing this at the Astrology talk page, but I'm not masochistic enough. Harold the Sheep (talk) 05:24, 1 January 2022 (UTC)
Yes, Harold the Sheep, my understanding is that it's fine to carry on here if we're discussing the theory behind our edits, but the topic of a particular page should be on the page's Talk Page. The concept "pseudo-science" gets a rigorous discussion at Hansson, Sven Ove, Zalta, Edward N., ed. (Fall 2021), "Science and Pseudo-Science", The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. This may be helpful in making useful distinctions.ch (talk) 22:38, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

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Chinese Legalism introduction

I don't mind an introduction to the article more along the lines of what you've added here,
but it would be more helpful to indicate a particular chapter of the source.
I can't maintain content I can't source and will have to re-read the article.FourLights (talk) 23:21, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick response, FourLights (though it's best to discuss the article on the article's Talk Page.ch (talk) 23:25, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

You're not on the article's talk page at this point. Please find another way to address references than removing them.FourLights (talk) 23:26, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
Thank you, I will rewrite the inclusion to something a little more academic.FourLights (talk) 23:30, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Apologies. I should have started a new section rather than adding to "Too many citations in the lead.'ch (talk)

Some of the few references you removed made sense to remove, so if you want to suggest some to remove, then go ahead and do that there, I am open.FourLights (talk) 04:12, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Many thanks, once again! I will make any further comments on the Talk Page.ch (talk) 04:17, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

These comments refer to Chinese Legalism. ch (talk) 23:51, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

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