User talk:CaesarsPalaceDude

Notes to self
WP:WORDS peacock, weasel, time-related etc.

Template:Cite AV media notes

http://www.edensongs.com/recordings/setlists_3/OGWT_AllInfo.txt

Requesting copyright permission

Declaration of consent for all enquiries

A belated welcome!
Here's wishing you a belated welcome to Wikipedia, CaesarsPalaceDude. I see that you've already been around a while and wanted to thank you for your contributions. Though you seem to have been successful in finding your way around, you may benefit from following some of the links below, which help editors get the most out of Wikipedia:
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Again, welcome! Mz7 (talk) 14:26, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Café Jacques (band) (March 2)
 Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. Please read the comments left by the reviewer on your submission. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved. ''' Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia! '''
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Sources for Café Jacques
Hello CaesarsPalaceDude. I saw your query at the AfC Help Desk. Take a look at Review of Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Café Jacques (band) where I've listed 5 sources you can use. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 11:34, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Café Jacques (band)
Hi. As you can see, I've moved your draft to article space. There's enough there to pass Criteria 5 of WP:MUSBIO supported by independent reliable sources. You might want to add a citation for the bit about where the albums were recorded and one forJohn G. Perry's and Phil Collins's guest appearances. Best wishes and congratulations on your first article! Voceditenore (talk) 12:15, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Talk:Ian McFarlane
Hi. An editor has responded to my placement of a notability tag on the article Ian McFarlane. Since you have questioned the subject's notability in the past, I thought you may be interested in adding your opinion. The editor has stated their reasoning at Talk:Ian McFarlane. Respectfully, Mz7 (alt) (talk) 01:21, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Allan Schwartzberg
A photo of "Allan Schwartzberg" would be great!, But for now it just needs a section about his career. Many thanks Joe Vitale 5 (talk) 10:41, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Joe Vitale 5 (talk) 08:30, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

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File:Ayers Rock Beyond(US) rotated.jpg listed for deletion
A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Ayers Rock Beyond(US) rotated.jpg, has been listed at Files for deletion. Please see the to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you. shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 11:27, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Deletion of ffd notice
The template you deleted contained the phrase "Feel free to edit the file, but the page must not be blanked and this notice must not be removed until the discussion is closed." The deletion of the notice is premature as the discussion was not closed.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 11:35, 18 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Well finish the discussion at the talk page before you list it for deletion. CaesarsPalaceDude (talk) 11:49, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

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Ayer's Rock Cover
I noticed you updated the page today, and that led me to take a quick look at the image again. Do you think it works just fine the way it is, or do you think it would work better if the face were to be highlighted after it rotates? I was thinking the latter, as the rotation might not be enough to trigger the pareidolia in everyone. MjolnirPants  Tell me all about it.  16:38, 25 February 2015 (UTC)


 * MjolnirPants, it is a big surprise that you would think to offer to improve the animation, so thanks. It still looks great, I worked out that I needed to present it as 300x300 in order to get the best appearance, and it works on every platform imaginable (as opposed to my sound samples, hmmm). After much thought, and some discussion with a colleague, we have decided that we are so relaxed, happy, and blissed-out with the current version that we will stick with it, thankyou. It is very difficult to improve on perfection.


 * However, I was wondering if you knew the answer to this question off the top of your head. Is it possible, in terms of licensing, to take "head shots" from several free-licensed photos, and combine them into one presentation for, say, the infobox (like the Beatles)? As they say in the classics, we love your work! CaesarsPalaceDude (talk) 10:41, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Regarding your question and to the extent of my knowledge (I'm no copyright expert): It depends on how your using it. What you're describing is what's called a derivative work. Whether this would be copyrightable to the creator is debatable, as US laws stipulates that for such to be the case, it must be original relative to the original works upon which it is based. In this case, a collage of pieces of other copyright protected works has little potential for originality, unless that collage were to suggest something new. For instance, a very tactless version might put photos of The Beatles on the faces of dogs being walked by Yoko. That would be copyrightable, and thus you could label that particular work with a CC license. The important thing here is that even though the collage is the copyrightable to you, you must be licensed to use the original works. In other words, you can copyright such a collage, but only with the permission of the original photographers.
 * In the case of creating something to be used for illustrative purposes, it would probably not be copyrightable, which means you'd need to use it in accordance with fair use principles. That's kind of hard to justify, if you're making an aesthetically pleasing collage. Especially if the portion of the image you used is as important as the face of the subject, but you didn't include enough of the rest of the image to make it immediately identifiable by the original photographer.
 * My advice here would be not to do it. It's simple enough to find group shots of The Beatles for illustrative purposes. There are even some public domain images of them out there. If it must be done, I would recommend finding shots of each one standing, crop them only enough to remove other faces from the image, then assembling them horizontally. This maintains enough of the original image that it gives you a leg to stand on when arguing for fair use. You'd have to then provide a fair use rationale, and credit each of the original works. However, bear in mind that as I mentioned above, I'm no copyright expert. If you want a more educated opinion, try asking this at Wikipedia talk:Graphics Lab/Photography workshop. I'm sure someone with more knowledge than I will come along. MjolnirPants   Tell me all about it.  13:40, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
 * MjolnirPants, thankyou so much for your very logical answer. I probably got the phrasing of the question a bit wrong (it's happened before). My question, related to Ayers Rock, like a lot of things at the moment. As an example of what I was meaning, I tried to refer to The Beatles article where a derivative work is used as the primary means of identification in the infobox. In the Beatles example, the "heads" appear to be all from the one photograph, which would make the licensing situation much simpler, particularly if the original photographer was the one creating the collage. In your answer, "you can copyright such a collage, but only with the permission of the original photographers" appears to be very relevant. Which, for photos about 40 years old, sounds like a copyright/legal nightmare (just nod your head)(only joking). So, I need to try something simpler, like obtaining a live performance shot of one of the early line-ups. Am I sounding like I'm on the right track, now? CaesarsPalaceDude (talk) 16:17, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
 * That's what I would do. Bear in mind that it's because that's the (legally) simplest route. You might be able to pull off a collage under fair use, without a whole lot of objections here. I just don't see it as being worth the hassle, when I'm sure there are group photos that could be used. MjolnirPants   Tell me all about it.  18:37, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
 * MjolnirPants, thanks once again for your help. I have a much clearer sense of the deep forest that is images and copyright at Wikipedia. I share your commitment to helping Wikipedia look encyclopedic, as well as having great text. CaesarsPalaceDude (talk) 19:57, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Ayers Rock - Lady Montego edit.ogg
 Thanks for uploading File:Ayers Rock - Lady Montego edit.ogg. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Stefan2 (talk) 23:27, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of File:Ayers Rock - Lady Montego edit.ogg


A tag has been placed on File:Ayers Rock - Lady Montego edit.ogg requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section F1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the image is an unused redundant copy (all pixels the same or scaled down) of an image in the same file format, which is on Wikipedia (not on Commons), and all inward links have been updated.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Stefan2 (talk) 11:49, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Great work on Ayers Rock article!
I noticed your WP:HD post and although I can't help in that regard, I wanted to say I really appreciate your hard work. I had never heard of the band before, but listening to the sound samples both improved my understanding of the article's contents and (more importantly, in my opinion) exposed me to another great band! Their work is amazing and even though it's not my usual genre, I find their music (well, at least the samples) to be very creative and artistic, not to mention fun to listen to. I was going to post this on the your Help Desk post, but decided that might be off-topic. In any case, great work on the article! I wished more people did what you did, since it improves the article tenfold. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 04:20, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Nøkkenbuer, thankyou so much for your generous feedback, which is a pleasant boost while I am in the middle of more hard work. By all means, keep an eye on that article over the next few days, because I am currently working on another music sample from Ayers Rock's first album to upload to Wikipedia. I like your user page, and it's a thousand times better than no user page at all. Like you, I am a precisionist. Actually, I believe you can help me if you wish. Could you, please, answer a couple of questions? On your device, does File:Ayers Rock - Lady Montego wiki.ogg
 * display correctly on the page?
 * show the play buttons in the usual way? (i.e. the rectangle with play, time, volume, and menu)
 * what type of operating system are you running? (e.g. Windows 8, Mac version etc)
 * The answers will help me try to sort out what is going on. Thanks very much. CaesarsPalaceDude (talk) 05:24, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
 * On my Windows 7 Professional x64, it plays just fine without any audio problems (no cracks, distortion, etc.). I can check on my Android smartphone later, if you want, once it's charged. Everything displays fine, and I do not see any inconsistencies or problems with any of the files on the article. I played every single sample, and they worked fine. I didn't notice any problem with them. ―Nøkkenbuer (talk • contribs) 05:43, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Nøkkenbuer, the problem seems to be with the Apple Corp platforms. I have an Android phone too, and they seem to work OK. CaesarsPalaceDude (talk) 05:53, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

Jim Doyle
What about something like "Doyle was diagnosed with liver cancer;" at the start of the last ¶, with the current first sentence trimmed of ", from liver cancer,"?shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 05:55, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
 * shaidar cuebiyar, please go ahead with that, it sounds like a very good improvement. If Nøkkenbuer doesn't post soon at AR, give me your candid opinion. I will negotiate on this matter, so don't hold back (politely, I'll turn over a new leaf). CaesarsPalaceDude (talk) 06:09, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Copy time?
Is it time for the Guild?shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 02:03, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
 * shaidar cuebiyar, It sure is! Per your previous suggestion, I will nominate the article on behalf of both of us, this afternoon.  CaesarsPalaceDude  (talk) 06:41, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Great effort.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 08:40, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

K and WP
This issue has been raised at various times, e.g. Talk:Normie Rowe back in 2009. It has occurred so often that K has added a notice on his website, see Copyright Notice where he gives permission for his material to be used under Creative Commons Attribution-Sharealike 3.0 Unported License and the GNU Free Documentation License. Note he does not give permission for use of any material by other authors, which is why his Ayers Rock article has acknowledgement of assistance and those co-contributors needed to be put in.

As for the WP Spectrum article, itself, I agree that its fairly thin on detail and diversity of sources. If K uses his own website, which is recognised as a reliable source, then I don't see any particular problem in terms of copy violation. I do see problems in terms of his expression and in terms of the article being based on few independent sources. I believe that K has identified himself as being an ardent fan of Spectrum and allied works, it is possible that there may be NPoV issues with the WP article. But then again, I thought you were in a similar position vis-à-vis Ayers Rock: I can get things wrong, too.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 05:25, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Ayers Rock (band)

 * A great job! Now for GAN...shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 23:24, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Spectrum / Murtceps time
Even though Ayers Rock is at GAN, and I have other fish frying, I've decided to tackle Spectrum and then Indelible Murtceps. You're welcome to jump aboard whenever you like.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 23:47, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Photo op
Is photos is good! Thanks for those and thank those sources, too. Comments:
 * 1) I'd move Brown's photo up – he's the group's 2nd longest serving member.
 * 2) I think the captions, below the infobox, need some work: I'll have a go.
 * 3) I'd prefer a performance shot of the earlier line-up in the infobox: one that's more indicative of the group at the height of their popularity.
 * 4) Until a better one shows up leave the posed 1981 shot there. Once a good one is found we'd move this down to Hotspell area.
 * 5) My thoughts revolve around getting a GTK (or equivalent) screen shot. It's likely to be difficult to get the entire line-up in the same photo frame.
 * 6) I've tried to get usable screen shots of:
 * 7) "Heavy Soul Singer" (GTK, 1974) but the best one leaves Loughnan out of shot at our right.
 * 8) "Nostalgic Blues" (GTK, April 1974) but Brown is turned away, Kennedy is mostly obscured, McQuire's face is obscured.
 * 9) Concert for Bangladesh (live broadcast, 20 April 1975), is in colour, but its a distant stage shot.22:01, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * 10) I've put Doyle's photo in his article.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 07:49, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * 11) I don't have a problem with the swap but I'll tweak the caption.07:53, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * 12) Somebody should work to get an article on Loughnan going (jiggling your elbow).shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 07:49, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree completely with your points 3.0 & 3.1; the aim has always been to use a photo of the 73 to 76 band. I'm fairly sure that you will face big problems with copyright in regard to GTK, and concert for Bangladesh. I'm open to an image of the early band which shows 4 out of 5 musicians, regardless of who gets missed. We have to make the best decision for the encyclopedia.  CaesarsPalaceDude  (talk) 21:05, 6 September 2015 (UTC)


 * 1) If free media becomes available then it would trump the non-free one. We have made a concerted effort to find such an image (you especially) but so far we have been unsuccessful. In the best interests of the article we want an early performance image of the group so I've gone for a non-free one. Furthermore:
 * 2) As I write in the non-free rationale: "Used in the article's infobox to show an early line-up of the band, performing live-in-the-studio" This gives the general reader (not you or I) an image of the subject at the start/height of their popularity, which is the most recognisable line-up of the group. This addresses the policy at WP:NCCP#8.
 * 3) It does not infringe on the commercial rights of the owner (ABC) as "A single frame from a ten-minute TV segment." This is no hindrance to the ABC commercial opportunities if they ever wish to sell GTK segments or a compilation thereof.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:05, 8 September 2015 (UTC)22:07, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with so much of what you are saying, and the spirit of what you are trying to do. However, there's a problem - a big one. To summarise the big picture, we are wishing to have the article promoted to GA status, and we are seeking a live photo of the early band. Now, I agree with your points 6.1 & 6.2; no problem there.
 * The subject of our article is the band Ayers Rock, and the guidelines tell us that the image in the lead must be that subject. What has occurred is that a free image of the band Ayers Rock has been removed from the lead, and a non-free image of the band Ayers Rock has been put in its place. Even worse, the free image has been placed in the body of the article. This is an unambiguous breach of WP:NCCP#1, wherein we demonstrate that a free equivalent is available with the Hotspell band, and then use a non-free image of the Big Red Rock band regardless. I submit that the GTK image needs to be removed entirely, and the article needs to be changed back to something like what it was before.
 * Our actions are at crossed purposes in that the inclusion of the GTK screen shot is undermining our broader goal at GAR. If you disagree, I suggest that you seek advice from editors that you hold in high esteem.  CaesarsPalaceDude  (talk) 10:23, 9 September 2015 (UTC)


 * 1) My contention is that the non-free GTK image, from May 1974, is not equivalent with the free image of the 1980 line-up. The earlier image has a higher encyclopaedic value as it provides more for the common reader and helps correctly identify that version of Ayers Rock. Having the 1980 photo there gives a misleading idea of what the 'typical' Ayers Rock band looked like. I believe it follows acceptable use at WP:NFC.
 * 2) At WP:FREER we have two questions that should be considered when using a non-free image: "Can this non-free content be replaced by a free version that has the same effect?" and "Could the subject be adequately conveyed by properly sourced text without using the non-free content at all?" My answer to both these questions is "No". The 1980 free version does not have the same effect as the 1974 non-free image, I contend that it is inferior and misleading when placed in the infobox. I don't believe text alone could convey the image of the 1974 line-up.
 * 3) On the same page under unacceptable use of images, at WP:NFC#UUI, we have: For some retired or disbanded groups, or retired individuals whose notability rests in large part on their earlier visual appearance, a new picture may not serve the same purpose as an image taken during their career, in which case the use would be acceptable. I believe sentiment is supported by use of the 1974 image in preference to the 1980 one in the infobox. I have no problem with the latter image still being used in the article.
 * 4) However I acknowledge and accept your reticence: I have no problem if you remove the GTK image altogether as you feel this would hinder its success at GAR. Alternatively, consider the possibility of retaining it and asking the reviewer(s) to give their preference in the matter if it is brought up. I will go along with whatever you decide here.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:18, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I think your arguments at 7.0 and 7.1 are interesting, but are a grey area. A very peaceful way to make progress, is to follow 7.3 but I will source a significantly better quality non-free image to replace the GTK one. By that I mean a live in concert image, with all five members visible, instead of 3½ at present. That way, the readers get what they want to see, and the GA reviewer(s) get to make the tough decisions. And we get to stop worrying about getting something good for a while. Probably, the worst that can happen is that the "new" image gets kicked off at GA. In the short term, everybody wins. Do you like it?  CaesarsPalaceDude  (talk) 17:24, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I like!shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:17, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Did I forget to mention "in colour" as well?  CaesarsPalaceDude  (talk) 20:20, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

AR(b) GAN
I will be having a temporary hiatus from internet & specifically wp for a week from this Saturday 21 Nov to Friday 27 Nov, inclusive. If the GAR starts while I'm absent you will have to carry the can, if anything is too difficult then ask the reviewer(s) for an extension as I am unavailable (beyond electricity, internet, mobile phone et al.) until probably Saturday 28. I'm taking a walk on the mild side (tenting in a National Park) not extreme sports stuff – no "Bear" Grylls, I.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 04:02, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Normal transmission has now resumed: I've returned from my mild side walks.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:15, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
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No drama

 * 1) My whole-hearted best wishes on your progress.
 * 2) I have no problems in handling any AR(b) GAR: whenever it arrives; its been five months since the nom!
 * 3) Sebastian Hardie: thanks for your work there.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 08:19, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Which Andy?
Andy Cowan vs Andy Cowell/Cowle? Both M & K have Cowan as a member of Blackfeather but Holmgren (here) has Cowell. WP (not a reliable source) article on Blackfeather has Cowle on piano (this was changed by a user called Nealejohns back in July this year). Holmgren's spelling is phonically similar to Cowle and either could be confused with Cowan. My advice is to keep the change per Holmgren but use the Cowle spelling until a better source (if ever) is found.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 06:55, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
 * In AR(b), I'd delete the sentence on Cowan being a member of Blackfeather due to a disagreement between otherwise reliable sources on spelling of Andy's last name.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 07:18, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
 * It was a copy and paste error: "D'oh". I had fixed the pasted version, then forgot to trim the original back to a ref tab. All is better now.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 10:52, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Festive season
Best wishes on the festive season, hopefully a better year ahead.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:31, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Grats GA AR(b)
Yeah well done, after all of our long history together on this article: who would have thought? I hope this is a signifier for a better year for you.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 00:09, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

DYK
Candidates:


 * 1) ... that in July 1975 Ayers Rock, became the first Australian band to perform in front of US stadium audiences of 35,000 when supporting Bachman-Turner Overdrive?
 * 2) ALT1 ... that in December 1974 Ayers Rock, became the first Australian band to sign with an international label, A&M Records?
 * 3) ALT2 ... that Ayers Rock, an Australian jazz fusion, progressive rock band formed in September 1973 were named after the monolith, Uluru?
 * 4) ALT3 ... that the Australian band, Ayers Rock's  second album, Beyond, used an image of the monolith, Uluru for an album cover, which could be rotated to display an indigenous man?

Some tweaking, formatting and/or wikilinks may be required. Each of these candidates could be re-ordered and/or delisted.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 03:27, 29 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I would suggest that ALT2 should read "became the first Mushroom Records artist to sign ..."
 * I have another: ALT4 that Ayers Rock, an Australian jazz fusion, progressive rock band were the first to fuse Australian indigenous style music with jazz fusion.  CaesarsPalaceDude  (talk) 23:24, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I have another: ALT4 that Ayers Rock, an Australian jazz fusion, progressive rock band were the first to fuse Australian indigenous style music with jazz fusion.  CaesarsPalaceDude  (talk) 23:24, 29 January 2016 (UTC)


 * 1) ALT2: Yeah, is better.
 * 2) ALT4: Too many fuse/fusion? Try: that Ayers Rock, an Australian band, were the first to combine indigenous style sounds with jazz fusion.

I advise restricting their choices to only the best three. Now you have to decide which three you like best! Then make a joint submission to DYK: best of luck.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 09:57, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

For the submitted candidates: I'd wL indigenous per indigenous or indigenous music per indigenous music as being more relevant than indigenous peoples.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:41, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

DYK nomination of Ayers Rock (band)
Hello! Your submission of Ayers Rock (band) at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know!  —♦♦ AMBER  (ЯʘCK)  16:22, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

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Col Loughnan
Well done. I'm busy elsewhere so I can't do as thorough a run-through as the article deserves. I've assessed it at C-class: its already there and nudging B-class already.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:23, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

DYK for Ayers Rock (band)
 —♦♦ AMBER  (ЯʘCK)  00:01, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

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Fair Use in Australia discussion
As an Australian Wikipedian, your opinion is sought on a proposal to advocate for the introduction of Fair Use into Australian copyright law. The discussion is taking place at the Australian Wikipedians' notice board, please read the proposal and comment there. MediaWiki message delivery MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 11:08, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

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