User talk:Dawnleelynn/Archive 1

Welcome!
Hello, Dawnleelynn, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions, especially your edits to Professional Bull Riders. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:
 * Introduction and Getting started
 * Contributing to Wikipedia
 * The five pillars of Wikipedia
 * How to edit a page and How to develop articles
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Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or, and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome! Montanabw (talk) 21:16, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Reply to Welcome
Ok, here goes my first attempt. Thank you for the welcome and the links! I see you are very busy, so most appreciated. I am an unemployed technical writer with 20 years experience. Some experience with HTML and XML. So I thought I could definitely contribute once I picked up the markup language and rules here. As you saw, starting out by editing existing articles. The topic you mentioned definitely needs more work. I watch PBR so I know where to get the content. Well wishes to you, Dawn! Dawnleelynn (talk) 20:36, 5 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Just keep familiarizing yourself with our guidelines. When I started on wikipedia (10 years ago now) one thing I found quite helpful was to borrow the style and format of high quality articles similar to the type I was working on.  Good luck with all you do, and I will probably be less busy in about a week or so.  In the meantime, WikiProject Equine (WPEQ) at WP:EQUINE is more or less the home of the rodeo-related articles (even if about bulls...) but you may also find some folks willing to provide help at WikiProject Agriculture also.   Montanabw (talk) 07:14, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Welcome to The Wikipedia Adventure!

 * Hi Dawnleelynn! We're so happy you wanted to play to learn, as a friendly and fun way to get into our community and mission.  I think these links might be helpful to you as you get started.
 * The Wikipedia Adventure Start Page
 * The Wikipedia Adventure Lounge
 * The Teahouse new editor help space
 * Wikipedia Help pages

-- 16:54, Monday, October 10, 2016 (UTC)

Dead Links
Hi, thanks again. I could use a quick bit of help. I tried to find the answer myself first. On the topic Rob Smets there are references at the bottom that are not hot anymore. I found them that way. And an error message (also found that way. Wanted to correct them. Error message |section= ignored (help). When I try to fix the error message, the whole line disappears. From what I can see the links are no longer on the web so someone removed that and just left the text there. I figure we are just leaving it there for historic purposes? To show that the content was originally cited from those links, even though they no longer exist. Can you let me know what is the proper handling? Thanks! Dawnleelynn (talk) 21:02, 12 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Hi, Sorry to take so long getting back to you. I missed the ping and I've been not real active for a few weeks.  I fixed the one error I saw and all looks fine now.  You can use the tag  where there is a URL that doesn't work and you can go to the Wayback Machine to see if it was archived, if it was, you can add the archived link to the citation (there is somewhat complicated syntax to add the original link and the archived link, but if you at least add the archive, that will do.  Those who care or understand the technical aspects can fix it for you or point to the guidelines that have an explanation how).  Hope that helps!    Montanabw (talk) 19:59, 24 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Actually, it has not been an issue that it took you a bit to get back. I've not been feeling well and haven't been working on topics for about 1 & 1/2 weeks now. Thanks, though! Right, I see you fixed the error I could not figure out, great. Thanks for the information about dead links due the links being removed or archived. I'll see if I can digest that this week and so forth. There's several in this Rob Smets topic. Also, I noticed you changed some rodeo topics talk pages to livestock instead of equine. Are the rodeo topics in the process of being moved from one wikiproject to another? Just want to make sure I am contacting the right group when I get to the point. Thanks again, Dawn Dawnleelynn (talk) 03:27, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
 * (Dropping by) Hi, Montanabw doesn't seem to be on, so I thought I'd reply since I sometimes work on rodeo topics. The rodeo horses and articles about individual rodeos are supposed to be in WP:WikiProject Equine, but the bulls have to go into the livestock WikiProject for now, since they're not equines. We're thinking of creating a WikiProject Rodeo, which would be for all the bucking horses, bulls, cowboys, rodeos, etc. and would be in conjunction with the previously mentioned WikiProjects. If you have questions, right now you can post at the Equine project, which seems to be where most of the rodeo activity is. White Arabian Filly  Neigh 20:51, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Hello so nice to meet you! Thank you for dropping in and replying. I do appreciate it. Now I understand about the projects, thanks. And good to know another editor who works in the rodeo topics. So, as for creating WikiProject Rodeo, somewhere down the road, it may definitely be needed, as the PBR is claimed to be the fastest growing sport in the country now. As for me, I have interest and knowledge about old school and modern bull riding (and sometimes other rodeo).

Wikimarkup
Saw on your userpage you're having to adjust to Wiki markup language. This page I made should help with some of it, just ignore the unfinished stuff about good and featured articles. I'm still writing that! By the way, if a page hasn't been edited in over 6 months (check the history) you can probably just be bold and begin improving it without asking anybody. We don't seem to have many rodeo-oriented editors; like I said before, I try to get over there sometimes, but my primary contributions are articles about show horses and trainers: I wrote this list and every blue link on it. (And have the rest to do!) White Arabian Filly  Neigh 23:06, 10 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Hello again. Thanks for the link, I'll check it out. Everything helps, although I am surprised how much I've picked up it was still too much time spinning wheels to get it. I noticed that when I put a note in Little Yellow Jacket that I was going to majorly expand it, no one responded. I was thinking Bodacious and Bushwacker were fair game since they are stubs and don't show a lot of activity other than bots and tiny edits from miscellaneous users. And I'd like to write Red Rock so I can do it right and not have to rewrite from a mess later. Very notable bulls all of them. I saw you fixed the addition of Lane Frost to the PBR World Champions, lol. I guess people think they are funny sometimes. I saw you checked out Red Rock, I'm just starting to write in there, maybe check it out tomorrow if you like. You are always, like montanabw, welcome to play in my sandboxes. Thanks! Appreciate your help and interest. Dawnleelynn (talk) 23:32, 10 November 2016 (UTC)


 * WAF is right, there are very few editors on the rodeo topics. We get are a lot of one-off drive-bys who either copy and paste things without attribution, or add info that is unreadable (including really bad spelling), or they want to do the "my horsey is soooo wonderful I want to run barrels filled with pink cotton candy and rainbows" thing.   I think I am actually the most long-term rodeo editor, and though I'm a horsewoman and a lifelong Montanan, I'm a just rodeo spectator, not a competitor.  I was more into horse shows (in Montana, one way to be a rebel is to ride English!  LOL!)   has a pretty solid background in working cattle sports (particularly cutting) and we might be able to draw her away from scuba diving to help you with these bull/rodeo articles, too.  But I'd say that the bulls will not be a high-traffic editing area, so you will have a pretty free rein there.  We folks from the Equine project can help keep an eye on you as you wrestle with the quirks of wikipedia writing style, and please feel free to pop by our pages and ask questions any time.  I don't know about the others, but if someone posts on my own talk page, I get a ping on my email, and usually I can pop by within a few hours if I'm not swamped with RL stuff.  By the way, I have a completely disorganized pile of links and some basic training ideas at my "training" account, User:MontOther, which I use at editathons and such.    Montanabw (talk) 07:23, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I honestly don't see how you do it, considering all that you do on WP AND in RL.  You're one amazing person!  I was having difficulty focusing on more than one of my RL duties which lately has been watching paint dry during my condo upgrade.  Come to find out, the paint dried on the back of a vertical blind railing that had to be removed, so of course, the new paint came off with it. I'm a bad paint-dry watcher, but I do know a bit about rodeo.  Glad to help. Ping me or post on my TP which is kinda like watching paint dry but with a bit more excitement. Atsme 📞📧 20:49, 11 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes, there do seem to be few editors in rodeo. But after the PBR World Finals were over, someone didn't hesitate to get in there and fill in the winners asap in the PBR topic, LOL. But they left out the 3-way tie for the World Champion Bull, so I filled that in. Let's also not forget savagecoverman who's I would say is the most active. After all, the he just wrote Skoals Pacific Bell last month. And I'm familiar with the issue that he won't communicate and the discussion on an admin board. I actually had a user make an edit on Little Yellow Jacket that was redundant and covered by my linked to Built Ford Tough Series. And I could see on their talk page they were capable of replying & had done so before - but they ignored me. An addition about the Bud Light Cup being the series b4 BFTS. And they did not cite it. The BFTS topic isn't cited either. Back to Pacific Bell, this user may take exception to anyone making major changes to the topic, but we have no idea how he will react? Since he won't communicate, has he/will he communicate in the revision history? Also, I found some content in Bodacious that was nearly word for word from a source I found while I was cleaning up broken links last week. No wonder they didn't use the source. And it looks like Skoals Pacific Bell follows the ProRodeo Hall of Fame topic maybe a little too closely. When the bull doesn't have many sources, I can see how this could happen. I am trying to make sure it doesn't look like I am following my sources too closely in my topics. I definitely want to take another run over Little Yellow Jacket for that reason. And trying to write while using citations makes it harder, but like I said I will get better at it with practice. That's the one thing about me...I always keeping improving. Dawnleelynn (talk) 18:31, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I've pretty much totally rewritten some of Savagecoverman's stuff, and he didn't seem to have a problem with it. Yeah, people will update with the latest winners, but they often don't add a source. You can add references by adding the bare urls in ref tags and then running the ReFill tool on them, which is what I usually do...  White Arabian Filly  Neigh 23:01, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, for that, I'm around right now working. Good to know about Savagecoverman. I've been using the Templates > Cite Web feature to add references. But if the Refill is better, I'll check it out. Dawnleelynn (talk) 23:09, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I forgot I wanted to comment on something before. So cool you're a horsewoman. And we are kinda neighbors though from a long way apart in such big states. I'm in Wyoming, though can't say I'm a lifelong one. I do go to the Cheyenne Frontier Days although not every time. I tried to ride horses a couple times in childhood but haven't done so as an adult. Okay, I send a DM to my friend about the photos just have to wait to hear back. Dawnleelynn (talk) 04:34, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
 * LOL! I just did a run down I-25 to Colorado a couple of months ago and coming back actually stayed overnight in Douglas and deliberately did a swing by Jackalope square -- a couple of us made that into a GA-class article!  (we also did cow-tipping).  Speaking of our little problem child editor, you may want to look at PBR Brand of Honor -- ANYTHING you can do there will be all to the good!  (Also needs project tag for WP Ag).   Montanabw (talk) 05:35, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * (I forgot to ping you on this answer, so I don't know if you saw from this line down...) Wow, those all sound really cool. You drove right through where I live off I-25. Cow tipping lol. Why was this article approved? An acronym for article title. No mention of what the acronym stands for in this article anywhere. No links made to this article. Misspelling Bushwacker's name again even though it's correct in the link to see. And just complete made-up reasons for why this award is given out. So, yeah a little more to it. But most of all-this award is 1 of 4 awards that comprise Heroes and Legends. It does not belong as its own article. This editor just cares about bulls and not about how the award fits into the whole Heroes & Legends, let alone, of the Professional Bull Riders. See http://www.pbr.com/en/riders/heroes-and-legends.aspx I could fix the article content up temporarily if that's what you want me to do, but it will have to be changed to "Professional Bull Riders: Heroes and Legends" to make it right at some point. I even wonder if it belongs in the Professional Bull Riders topic with the other awards...or if it should be done like some other topics are done. A main PBR article and a PBR awards article . Well, that's my take on it. Let me know what you think. Dawnleelynn (talk) 20:02, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * My guess is the topic wasn't approved at all. I have dealt with a ton of that editor's contribs, and I think they're going to be blocked sooner or later for their problematic way of writing. As for the incorrect title, you can click on the more tab, click on move, and move it to the correct title. And I agree, the abbreviation should be spelled out in the first sentence of the article. White Arabian Filly  Neigh 20:08, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Thanks WAF. Good tip on article name manipulation. And I see you corrected Bushwacker's name. I realize our little editor also works in the horse articles so it's not just bull topics where you've had to deal with these issues. And we'll see what montanabw thinks about the heroes and legends. Dawnleelynn (talk) 20:48, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Happy Thanksgiving!

 * Hi there and thanks for the well wishes on Thanksgiving Day! What a beautiful message! I'm not up to anything like that yet... so unexpected. You and yours have a wonderful Thanksgiving too. Truly, many blessings today. I'm sure we both have so much to be thankful for. I know you live on a farm and have many animals, that's surely a great blessing. And you've been a blessing to me here, very friendly and encouraging. Without you and montanabw, I doubt I would be anywhere near as bold of an editor as I am. If it helps people know and appreciate the subjects more, then it's worth it. So, thanks again Dawnleelynn (talk) 00:05, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. Yeah, I have a horse, a cat, several dogs, some guinea pigs, a couple rabbits and a lot of chickens! White Arabian Filly  Neigh 20:18, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Sounds lovely! Dawnleelynn (talk) 22:10, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Red Rock sandbox
Hi, an editor I don't know just made a change to this Red Rock sandbox. I don't understand what it did. All I can see is that is removed the border around the categories. Can you tell me when you get a chance? I don't want to edit in it again until I know if I want this? Do editors normally come to sandboxes? Are the categories out there seen even though it's a sandbox. Are there some things I should wait to add until right before I am ready to publish it as a new article? Your help much appreciated.. Dawnleelynn (talk) 01:54, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The editor did that because sandboxed articles are not supposed to be in categories. You're supposed to wait and link to the categories after the article is live. I don't know how they noticed it, maybe from looking at the category page itself, but their edit was legit. (They could have explained it better in the summary, though.) There's nothing else wrong. Most of the time editors won't edit in somebody else's sandbox unless they are invited or they see a problem they can fix. White Arabian Filly  Neigh 19:48, 26 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Okay, yes that makes total sense now, thanks. I really couldn't see what changed in the code so that didn't help besides the summary not being very helpful like you said. So going forward I won't include categories again. Thanks, I'm sure that didn't take you long to figure out! :)
 * And then, ironically, they also will yell at you for NOT putting in categories when the article IS live! LOL!  What I do sometimes is put in the categories without brackets so that I don't forget them, and then bracket them in when the article goes live.   Montanabw (talk) 07:39, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Heehee, that sounds par for the course! I like your idea and I'm going to try it. Cause I don't want to forget the categories, that's for sure. They never caught me when I temporarily pasted Little Yellow Jacket in for a 1/2 day or so to work on it and then put it back in the real topic. But then I left it there and forgot to blank the sandbox out and that same person caught it again a little later that day after he had edited the Red Rock sandbox. So I blanked it out. Dawnleelynn (talk) 22:53, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

An editor's prank?
On my Watchlist page, I just noticed this morning that it says "A request for adminship is in progress. [dismiss]" I haven't dismissed quite yet. I tried to see who requested it because I don't find it amusing. I mean obviously I am so squeaky new to Wikipedia that this is not for me. I don't think I would ever want to be an administrator due to certain private reasons anyway, even down the line. I'd like to know who did this, any way to tell. I tried what it said on the help page for RFA but it didn't work. I know it has to be accepted before it shows up on the actual RFA page which only has 1 active rfa in progress right now. Or let me know if I should just forget about it and dismiss. Dawnleelynn (talk) 18:11, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Now it says there are 2 requests. But no one left a message on my talk page so there's no way to see them. Weird. Dawnleelynn (talk) 04:21, 28 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Just dismiss it; these watchlist notices show up from time to time once you've reached a certain level of edits to be viewed as "not a newbie" -- they are alerts to everyone. Basically, people who want to become admins have to gain the support of the community, but for a long time, the only people who'd go and "!vote" for them were a group of regulars who watchlisted just that area.  It was felt that they needed to alert the broader community, so the notices started maybe 6-8 months ago.  Just ignore or dismiss them if you aren't interested in them.  I ran for RfA about a year ago and didn't get it (I've made some people unhappy over the past 10 years...) and I'll probably try again in a few months.    Montanabw (talk) 07:37, 30 November 2016 (UTC)


 * I think it's confusing for these notices to come up with no explanation. If you click the link "request for adminship" it takes you to the "Wikipedia:Requests for adminship" where says the same thing you did about being long enough to be trustworthy, which obviously I would agree with on my own. Well, at any rate, if you run again, I hope you get it. As a newbie I guessing I wouldn't have been here long enough to vote for you. Cause I would if I could. Sorry to hear you you stepped on some toes. I can relate...20 years writing and editing in my jobs and not everyone is 100% happy with you no matter how hard you try. I worked in software development so it's not just other writers and editors...I had to work with developers, QA, and product managers too. Dawnleelynn (talk) 22:46, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Deleting mistake pages
Hi I've only been an editor a couple months. Made a mistake creating a new sandbox, ended up outside. Thank you for deleting "Articles I'd like to improve." Could you also delete User:Dawnleelynn/Articles I'd like to improve for me please? Thanks! Dawnleelynn (talk) 22:33, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Hey, did you hear? The Internet Archive to move a copy of its collection to Canada because of Trump
http://mashable.com/2016/11/29/internet-archive-canada/?utm_cid=mash-com-Tw-main-link#oeziE7urZ5qx Dawnleelynn (talk) 00:04, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Bull infobox
Very rough draft here. Feel free to suggest things I forgot. You'll probably have to put it into the edit window to see the stuff I put in there, but I tried to get most of the things I think we need. White Arabian Filly Neigh 23:40, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I used it in my Red Rock draft here: User:Dawnleelynn/Red Rock(bull). I really like the addition of brand number alot, sex will always be male but still good to have, country is good because PBR is in several countries now, we mentioned notable riders before that's good it does happen more than one might think, not sure who breeder is supposed to be (I guess sometimes it is the stock contractor but not always), The 4 sire fields are nice I have those for Little Yellow Jacket will add them later tonight, but Red Rock's parentage is unknown unfortunately.


 * Ok, here's what is missing perhaps - examples:
 * weight = 1,750 lbs.
 * adding the location of birth underneath Born, e.g., Burns, OR, U.S.
 * Died June 8, 1994 (aged 18) and adding the location under the year of death, e.g., Red Bluff, CA, U.S.
 * Occupation Rodeo bull (negotiable)
 * Years active 1978-1987

Dawnleelynn (talk) 00:18, 20 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Given that we have a critter, "occupation" probably not the best phrase. Perhaps "notable for" or something like that (I can see his being used for cows, bulls, steers, oxen, etc...).  Just my 2¢.   Montanabw (talk) 06:20, 20 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Hehe, it was used in the infobox someone created for Bodacious. Sometimes you just accept things without really thinking about them because it's already in use. Occupation lol. Rodeo bull is getting outdated too. Bucking bull is more modern. Stock contractors say it's his job all the time. I tried thesaurus.com and I the only thing I liked there was vocation. Any thoughts WAF? Dawnleelynn (talk) 16:57, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll add the spaces for place where born and died, and weight. I'm not sure about vocation; maybe discipline like with the horses? White Arabian Filly  Neigh 20:03, 20 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Don't forget years active. I've been thinking about the "occupation" this morning since I saw montanabw's message. I don't think you have an equivalent for horses, do you? At this point, thinking it's obvious and it would always say the same thing. Dawnleelynn (talk) 20:13, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll add years active. I agree with you on discipline because it probably wouldn't be used for anything except bucking bulls. White Arabian Filly  Neigh 20:25, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Ok, no occupation of any sort. For the additional fields, you can look at the second infobox in Red Rock (link above) to see how they were in there in the other one. All sounds good. When you are done, no rush, I'll replace it the one Little Yellow Jacket because he's the only bull article that could fill all of the fields right now. Thanks!! Dawnleelynn (talk) 20:35, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi, thank you, I think everything is there now except I didn't see example: June 8, 1994 (aged 18), Red Bluff, CA, U.S. (first line, birthdate, age calculates automatically) (second line birthplace). If I missed,sorry Gotta run IRL. Dawnleelynn (talk) 23:09, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's possible to get the age calculator thing in the infobox as a standard thing, it apparently has to be done manually when you add the information to the box. At least, I'm not seeing it in the infobox for people, and looks like it'd be there. White Arabian Filly  Neigh 23:20, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, sorry to get back to you so late. It's in the infobox for Bodacious}}. It's also working in [[Little Yellow Jacket as I copied the infobox there and used it. Shouldn't you be able to copy it from the template that those infoboxes are using, where it does work? Sorry if I wasn't clear on that...my bad... Dawnleelynn (talk) 02:21, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter that you're late getting back, I had company all day (and was busy showing off my youngest guinea pig to them) so just now got online. I can't find a way to add that date and age so the age at death shows up in parameters to the infobox template itself, so it automatically shows up every time the infobox is used in an article. It seems to be a template within itself that is put into each infobox as needed. It evidently has to be copied into each article where you want to use it, anyway, I don't think it's possible to put it into the main infobox template. White Arabian Filly  Neigh 22:48, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi, hope you had a nice time with your company. Guinea pig, how cute. I love all animals, btw. I took a look at Bodacious, it's using the animal infobox. Apparently, that infobox is getting the birthdate and calculated age by using this template: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Birth_date_and_age Perhaps we can't use that template in our infobox, is that what you mean? I've actually not gotten much done the last day myself, but for different reasons. It is the holidays after all. :)) Dawnleelynn (talk) 23:05, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * We can use it, just has to be added to each article individually when you add the date that that particular animal died. I raise guinea pigs and have several of them all the time; they are fun little critters. The most fun thing is how they're born with a full coat of hair and able to walk almost immediately, unlike rabbits, which come blind and totally naked. White Arabian Filly  Neigh 23:17, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok, now I understand what you are saying. But I have to admit I don't understand why we have to add it manually to the article. I copied the infobox from Bodacious to Little Yellow Jacket and it worked fine. And then again to Red Rock and that worked too. If you want to see it work, you can try it in a sandbox. So the animal infobox is doing something we need to also do I guess. Or maybe you're right, it's doing something for some reason we can't do.. Dawnleelynn (talk) 23:38, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I feel like I might be starting to become a pain in the butt with this parameter. And also thought we might be talking cross purposes. So I took a look at the animal infobox and yours to compare. I made a change and it seems like the age is calculating...I'm not sure what we each thought was needing to be added manually. With the template changed, the only thing an editor should need to change is the date. Let me know what you think. The last two 1's are something I haven't needed to touch when using this in an article.

I changed the | death_date = parameter to equal this:   | death_date = May 16, 2000 Dawnleelynn (talk) 04:43, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
 * It looks like it's working now after your edit! I got sort of confused before. Too much excitement from Chridtmad coming, probably. ..😊🎄🎁 White Arabian Filly  Neigh 22:31, 23 December 2016 (UTC)


 * That's great news! I was hoping that would do it. All that matters is it is working. What with Christmas so close and everyone so busy, things can get crazy like you said. There's not one doubt in my mind you would have got it. I'm have my own confusion that comes and goes, trust me. For different issue. All is well that ends well, then. Only two more days!! I love Christmas. I meant to tell you that I also love baby animals a lot so I found what you said about guinea and rabbits interesting. I can't really handle more than my pet cat these days. But she's special for me. Black cat, but I like black cats, if I can't have a Siamese. Well enjoy your Christmas. :) Dawnleelynn (talk) 22:52, 23 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Hi, I used the bovine infobox in a live article of mine that I had recently rewrote (with montanabw's help of course). It's Skoal Pacific Bell. It worked great and looks great! Thank you. But after all my work, in the last preview I noticed that it said something to the effect that this is still under development and I couldn't have this in a live article. So I removed it from your template...hope that's no big deal. I think the infobox is working great now. I do see now that I have to use different birth date and death date age formats in the userbox in the article depending on what information is available on the bull. The format I wanted in there so badly doesn't work if I don't have a full month day year, so for instance it is no use when I wanted to use in Red Rock unless I use a different format. I can just go copy the one I need through from Wikipedia's templates, though. I see how they all work now. I used a different format in the infobox in the topic I just give you a link to for Pacific Bell because I only had year born and died. So, there will be some inserting manually after all, just depends on the data per bull. But it's not a big deal. If someone would rather just type the death date, they can do that too. It's not going to change, haha :) I think you can even have a calculated living age, which would probably be more useful as that's a thing that changes once a year... well, hope you are having a great holiday.. and don't expect you to pay attention to this until you are done celebrating! I'll probably have put the infobox in Little Yellow Jacket by then too. ciao Dawnleelynn (talk) 23:50, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Removing the thing about it being incomplete is fine; I just moved it to Template:Infobox named bovine because they want all finished infoboxes to be in the template space. I also put it up in such a way that you can easily copy-paste to articles. Yeah, that about the date format stuff is what I was trying to explain before, it can be used but there's some manual work involved. I do think there's some kind of living age template you can put into the article infobox. It can probably be found in a famous human's infobox, I know I've seen one somewhere but can't remember where. My Christmas celebration is mostly over, beyond spending the money I got. 😆 White Arabian Filly  Neigh 22:43, 27 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Hello, I'm out here working on the Internet myself. Money can be a nice gift for Christmas. :) Yes, I got in there using the infobox on two articles and came to see what you were saying about how sometimes the date age format from the animal infobox didn't always work like it did in Bodcious and Little Yellow Jacket. So yeah, just leaving it up to individuals what they want to do is best, like you said. I was just curious about the living age template for now, but may look at it later. If you want to see how your infobox looks when all the fields are used, Little Yellow Jacket is the only one that comes close so far. Every field except image and I plan to get an image in there in the next couple days. Thanks again, it looks great. Dawnleelynn (talk) 23:05, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Another thought
Thinking about some questions you had on one of the article talk pages, it is also worth seeing how "loved" (or better stated, maintained) an article is. Worth checking the history to see when the article was last edited. If it was a long time ago, look at the contribs of the most active editors who last did much and see if they are still editing -- if you draw a goose egg on that, then dive in because most likely no one will even notice or care. If you do step on toes, apologize if you might have messed up something, but if the person has a WP:OWN attitude, then just have a discussion and see if they are touchy for a legit reason or if they just are being unkind and don't like criticism. (full disclosure: I do sometimes get accused of "OWNership" -- I prefer to think of it as "stewardship" or "quality control", but I suppose there is an eye of the beholder element to the question... LOL) Anyway, there can be some epic battles on wikipedia, but more often I find people usually are able to avoid most trouble if they choose to do so. (I'm more of a feisty sort and so... heh...) If you have any problems, just pop over to the talkpage of a friendly and more experienced user for advice. You can also try the teahouse or someplace like that too. Montanabw (talk) 06:57, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Awhile ago I read some of the articles on your Talk page on the Advice tab. One was the article regarding ownership and stewardship that you linked above. I also read about being careful if were going to edit a GA article. And being extra careful about editing a FA. Those articles obviously have many stewards and for a good reason. And I can see good reasons when someone who wrote an article would undo an edit at times or find it hard not to care about what happened to it after writing or make a large rewrite in it. I already feel very strongly about Little Yellow Jacket. Anyway, it seems like it could be a fine line. If I published an article and someone immediately hammered on half of it, I would feel upset for sure... On the other hand, if someone made some good edits, that's how it is supposed to work, or so I understand. I definitely don't want to get involved in any battles, avoid conflicts if possible. But I have dealt with my share and can do it when I have to. Almost all of Chicken on a Chain is copied from a PBR article and it looks like that's due to more than one editor. There are a few minor edits recently, the article hasn't been around that long. I copied it into my sandbox to work on, so the live article is still untouched right now. So, that's what I am working right now, Chicken and Red Rock. Dawnleelynn (talk) 18:02, 20 December 2016 (UTC)


 * I'd say on the bull articles, you can be very bold, as there is virtually no one editing there to speak of. Ping me any time if you want help, and if you want to move a new article into mainspace, don't bother to submit the draft for review, just have me or WAF or someone do a quick review if you think there are concerns, then remove those draftspace templates and move it there with the "move" tab.  For the existing articles you are rewriting, just copy your version in and toss the old one. If someone throws a fit, then discuss. The only real critique I see in your work is a slightly too-PR tone, which can easily be toned down by doing a hunt-and-destroy on adjectives to create a more encyclopedic tone -- and I had to endure some of the same myself when I started out.  (Now I really write in a too-boring fashion elsewhere!  LOL!)    Montanabw (talk) 23:52, 21 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Ok, got it about about how I should create a new article from one in my userspace, for example, Red Rock, which is there now. And for existing bull articles, as there are 6, and I'm working in my userspace on Chicken on a Chain, that one will be the third to be redone. The three remaining after that are stubs, one of which will probably take awhile as Bushwacker is the bull. As for a "too-PR tone," I must confess, guilty as charged. When I was working my last job, it was pretty hard to have a PR tone about an XML messaging agent, lol, for one example. But then I come in here and write about topics that I also enjoy for entertainment and the articles also have a huge PR tone. So, yes, I will definitely work on that. And become boring elsewhere, LOL. It's also probably due to the fact that I used to want to be a fiction writer. And I need to learn how to explain why the bull is notable without sounding PR. A fine line, eh? Dawnleelynn (talk) 18:47, 22 December 2016 (UTC) Note: I meant the PBR articles have a huge PR tone here...and that seeps into the WP articles. Dawnleelynn (talk) 22:31, 23 December 2016 (UTC)


 * A thought about what you said regarding getting accused of ownership a few messages up. I do understand why editors can feel some measure of attachment to articles that they had a significant role in, such as creating or fair amount of editing. You don't want to see someone "mess it up." And you spent a lot of time on the article, although there's a fine line, I feel there is justification for some amount of stewardship. But that is just my opinion. However, a steward who works tirelessly to keep an article NPOV, free from vandalism, and accurate is doing a good thing, I think. I would say we probably need more of that, not less. :) Dawnleelynn (talk) 23:12, 22 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Heh, dang straight. I get accused of "ownership" all the time;  my take is that when it's a good thing its 'stewardship" or "quality control."  "Ownership" is when someone else is annoyed. Occasionally, I will admit that I can get a little bullheaded, but not really all THAT often!   Montanabw (talk) 20:47, 23 December 2016 (UTC)


 * As for notability without promotional tone, usually minimizing adjectives helps; for example, saying "the most famous ever" is promotional. Saying, "ranked #1 by the Hoofrah Association's list of Foo"(cite) is neutral.  Saying, "the biggest, baddest bull ever" is promotional; saying "reputed to be among the largest and most aggressive bulls performing on the PBR circuit in the 1990s"(cite) is more neutral.  Basically, ask yourself, "how do I PROVE this?"  or "who says this is true?" will help. I used to get in "trouble" for this early on too... I had a few rounds of grumbling about it but eventually got the hang of it -- you get your point across by saying someone else said so -- in as dry of language as possible!  LOL!  Montanabw (talk) 20:54, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

I foresee myself getting accused of Ownership in the future as well. Just basic truth of my personality, although I will do everything in my power to avoid it. If I could restrain it at tech jobs, hopefully, I can do the same thing here, mostly. Like you, mostly you do. What you say about PR tone makes me think of Chicken on a Chain. There's a part of a sentence in the live article that is pure PR and it's also purely copied from a PBR article. "...has arguably become the most popular bucking bull in Professional Bull Riding (PBR) history." That editor was trying to prove Chicken's status, but just went about it the wrong way. Now if he had quoted it, that would be different. And now, as of 12/15, I have a list of top 10 PBR baddest buckers in a PBR article I can use to show that he's one of the baddest...which I have used in my sandbox article I am working on. Which proves your point. And another point about copying too. I do see where you are going with the PR tone examples and it does help tremendously. I will improve the more I do editing here. That's just how my system works. I'm never stagnant, always improving. I'm already starting to understand how the infobox and template work as well. Coding principles never change, just the markup. As usual, thanks for your time! I know you are busier than you might let on. Dawnleelynn (talk) 22:31, 23 December 2016 (UTC) oh P.S. When you get a chance read how Chicken got his name, lol.

Merry, merry!
From the icy Canajian north; to you and yours! FWiW Bzuk (talk) 13:55, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Merry Christmas 2016
  "And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold,   I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.  For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord."  Luke 2:10-11 (King James Version)  Tito Dutta (talk) is wishing you a Merry Christmas. This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove.

Spread the cheer by adding to their talk page with a friendly message.

--Tito Dutta (talk) 19:56, 24 December 2016 (UTC)