User talk:Firecatalta

Borderline Personality Disorder "Permiscuous" (July 17, 2013)
Reference: | Comparison of entries for Borderline Personality Disorder

The word "promiscuous" means "indiscriminate" in relation to sex. Please look it up in your own dictionary. (Whatever one you use.)

"Promiscuous", though, is a word that carries a judgment with it. I was seeking to eliminate the judgment by using a neutral word. --Corjay (talk) 03:20, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi there,
 * Sounds like we're on the same page about using nonjudgmental language in the article, and I appreciate your commitment to that. If you feel that "indiscriminate" carries less judgment than "sex with multiple partners," then I'm happy to leave it phrased that way in the article. Firecatalta (talk) 03:33, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. Some who might not think too hard about the text might automatically infer "orgy" from "sex with multiple partners", so it's important, I think, to qualify it for the sake of grammatical accuracy in relating the thought intended. Thanks for being amenable. I wouldn't have pushed it, myself, if you disagreed after the clarification of definition. It's a minor thing. :) Now to find out why I haven't been informed of updates by Wikipedia as I should. :) --Corjay (talk) 04:03, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I think you're right; "Sex with multiple partners" could easily be interpreted that way, which certainly would be a problem. :-) As for being informed of updates, that's a problem I've been having as well.  There have been a number of times when I'll get no notifications, whether through watchlist or email, and then check the view history and see that 5+ changes have been made.  Staying up to date can be a challenge!  Firecatalta (talk) 04:08, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I know the original citation uses the words "multiple partners", but do you think the meaning would be better clarified with "different partners"? --Corjay (talk) 04:12, 18 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I think that's a definite improvement - much clearer than what we have now. I say go for it! Firecatalta (talk) 06:23, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

"Promiscuous" means charm, a promiscuous person in sex, it technically does not have to be a sexual word promiscuous. Now to define it radically in sex yes it can be a multiple sex in partners and groups. The idea itself is completely #unhealthy" and to be upfront about a subject its completely wrong but to bypass and point out something its always good even if its bad or if it makes u the bad guy. In all realities you are only helping. Now to put it in context. Promiscuous is less of a judgemental thing but those in thinking of it as a sexual entity is casually what is only in their head as a person that thinks properly and healthy wise with no judgement yes #promicous I'm agreeable the other sound Very insulting. Toy Epic (talk) 21:04, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Welcome!
Hello, Firecatalta, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions, especially what you did for Borderline personality disorder. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful: Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place  before the question. Again, welcome! Lova Falk    talk   12:11, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
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Hi Firecatalta! Once more, welcome! Maybe you would like to read: Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and What Wikipedia is not, so you won't risk doing a lot of work that gets reverted. With friendly regards! Lova Falk    talk   12:13, 20 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you Lova Falk! I'm new to all this, and I really appreciate your taking the time to show me the ropes.  Firecatalta (talk) 12:22, 20 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Material for inclusion in an article needs to be WP:Notable - self-published books without third-party published reviews don't meet that criteria. Martinlc (talk) 13:15, 20 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the heads up, much appreciated! Firecatalta (talk) 13:35, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Borderline personality disorder
My I suggest converting your bolded headings to section headings? Use ====Sensitivity==== to make a sub-heading of Behaviour. The heading would then be included in the table of contents. See Help:Section Cheers Jim1138 (talk) 08:23, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Excellent! I wanted to do that but didn't know how, and I really appreciate your taking the time to show me. Thank you!  Firecatalta (talk) 09:32, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You're welcome! Thanks for all of your hard editing! If I can be of help, please let me know on my talk page. Cheers Jim1138 (talk) 09:47, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Thank you so much!! Couldn't do it without the support and guidance of the wiki community, that's for sure.  Firecatalta (talk) 23:55, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Blimey is your expertise just on BPD or do you know other stuff ? --Penbat (talk) 08:20, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Mostly just BPD, I'm afraid, with some knowledge about things related to it (suicidality, social anxiety, PTSD, eating disorders, etc). What about you? Firecatalta (talk) 20:55, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Never mind, just looked up your wiki page. Looks like you've done quite a service for the wiki psychology project -- many thanks for that! Firecatalta (talk) 09:41, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Welcome to Wikipedia. And congratulations on your first barnstar already. One thing to keep in mind when editing medical topics is the WP:MEDRS guideline; among other things, it emphasizes using up-to-date sources, preferring the most up-to-date sources...but allows exceptions. And for culture aspects of a medical topic, such as the history of a disorder, WP:MEDRS often doesn't apply. Flyer22 (talk) 01:30, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you Flyer22, I appreciate the information! Firecatalta (talk) 01:40, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. Flyer22 (talk) 01:44, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Children
Hi again Firecatalta! Was it you who added: "Earlier diagnoses may be helpful in creating a more effective treatment plan for the child or teen." ? Could you check your sources if they really say child, because as a clinician I am a bit shocked that this diagnosis should be given to a child, when it is not even recommended for adolescents. Thank you! Lova Falk    talk   17:42, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Nope, that wasn't me, and I agree, there is no way this diagnosis should be given to a child. To be honest, the BPD page had a lot of issues in the version that I first found it in, but I have been hesitant to take them out because I don't know what the rules are for that.  For instance, I've left in the blip about alcohol abuse resembling BPD, even though it's completely unsourced, because I'm not sure what the protocol is.  Help/advice? Firecatalta (talk) 17:56, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Anything unsourced and dubious (or worse) should be deleted just as long as you say in your edit comment why you are deleting it.--Penbat (talk) 18:07, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you Penbat! @Lova Falk, I just realized, do you mean the comment about observation of symptoms in children?  I can definitely see where that could get misinterpreted as saying that the diagnosis should be made in children.  I've added "suggestive of the disorder" to try and clarify, but please feel free and encouraged to edit until the meaning is clear, because I agree, that's a very important point: characteristics of the disorder and a propensity to develop it can be identified in some children (Linehan p. 49 and surrounding pages), but certainly this diagnosis is very, very inappropriate pre-adolescence.
 * No, I meant the quoted sentence above. An alternative to deleting is taking it to the talk page, as I will do now with this sentence, because it is sourced and I don't have access to the source.  Lova Falk     talk   18:25, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see you have already deleted "child". Face-smile.svg We'll see if an editor shows up protesting against deletion because it is sourced...  Lova Falk     talk   18:30, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Time will tell! :-)  My guess is that the author meant to say that if a reliable method could be found to predict the future development of BPD in children, then early intervention could prevent development of the disorder or improve its prognosis.  Still, isn't that true on some level for all mental illnesses?   Firecatalta (talk) 18:38, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Well... now I find myself at a loss of words, because there is so much that can be said about this. Children are still so vulnerable and open for life that IMHO there is no way we can develop methods to reliably predict the future development of BPD, or any mental illess. (This is a Very Short Version of what is going on in my mind right now.)  Lova Falk     talk   18:57, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I would love to hear/read the very long version some time, if you ever feel so inclined! It's clear to me that you have a lot of knowledge and wisdom in this regard, and I am always eager to learn more. :-) Firecatalta (talk) 18:59, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Some knowledge and experience, yes, wisdom, I don't know... But a bit more. IMHO mental disorders are always the result of an interaction between a vulnerability and the environment (both positive and negative aspects), and in children the environment plays a much bigger part than in adults. Simply put, a good teacher who is keen to build up a good relationship with a troubled and troublesome child, can make a world of difference, just as a new stepparent with a harsh treatment can ruin an harmonious and innocent child. Of course, in heavily traumatized children, we can predict that they probably will have difficult times even as adults, but for most nine-year-olds, we can't predict who will develop mental disorders and who won't. But we can identify risk factors (both within the child and in the environment) and resilience factors. Lova Falk    talk   19:20, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
 * That makes good sense to me, and I would call it wise. :-)  Thanks for taking the time to elaborate, and have a wonderful day! Firecatalta (talk) 19:53, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you! ♥ Actually it's night here, and I'll be off to bed and then to work...  Lova Falk     talk   19:57, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Wow! In that case, sleep well!  Firecatalta (talk) 20:00, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Talkback
Lova Falk    talk   07:46, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Jeffrey Dahmer
Hi, I just got to reply to you about the whole thing with Jeffrey Dahmer. Psychologists and psychiatrists all across the board have indicated that Jeffrey Dahmer suffered from borderline personality disorder, schizoid personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, substance abuse, depression, paraphilias, anxiety disorder, and possibly, aspergers syndrome. Dahmer killed his very first victim on impulse because he was trying to keep him from leaving. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.97.5 (talk) 21:26, 10 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi there! While all of these ideas about what condition(s) he may have had are very interesting, diagnosis of any mental illness requires an in-person assessment by a qualified clinician.  If you can find a source from a psychologist or psychiatrist who met with and diagnosed him during his lifetime, feel free to put him back in!  Unfortunately, the source you presented last time did not meet these criteria.  Firecatalta (talk) 21:51, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Thank you!! This means so much to me. I can't tell you how much I respect your hard work and kind countenance in our community, and receiving a barnstar from you has completely made my day (is it day if it's 5am?  hard to say).  Thank you again, and here's to all the articles and collaboration to come!  Firecatalta (talk) 10:05, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Cheers! You deserve it. I guess you're still up. And way too excited to go to sleep now. Face-smile.svg  Lova Falk     talk   10:10, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you again! I have to say, these enjoyable conversations are no incentive to fix my sleep cycle. :-) Have a great day! I'm off to catch some elusive zzz's. Firecatalta (talk) 10:13, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Goodnight(?), sleep well, happy dreams!  Lova Falk     talk   10:23, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

RE: Jeffrey Dahmer
Hey, I found a source which claims that Jeffrey Dahmer was interviewed and evaluated by psychiatrist Dr. Carl Wahlstrom, who diagnosed him with both borderline personality disorder and schizotypal personality disorder. So I added Jeffrey Dahmer under the "Notable people with comorbid.."


 * Thank you for the update, and great job finding the source! Firecatalta (talk) 02:44, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

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(Moved from my user page)

Hi there, thanks for the evaluation of the proposed article for Tami Green! Regarding your comment that the citations are "self-serving," I want to clarify that I am not Tami Green, am not and have never been a client of hers, and have never met or interacted with her in any way. What I think is notable about her is that she is a public figure (she has testified before congress and is an activist who works to reduce stigma surrounding mental illness) who has recovered from borderline personality disorder and has a successful career, two things which are commonly thought to be impossible for people with BPD. Without the BPD factor, it's true that Green's life is not "notable" by wiki standards. But the fact that she has had a relatively normal life, after struggling with severe BPD, is pretty notable for clinicians. The news coverage about her has been for that reason, not because of her work as a life coach:

"Another problem is the entrenched belief that BPD is impossible to treat. Physicians often are reluctant to treat borderlines, as these patients are sometimes called, and their disease is highly stigmatized among health professionals, says Hoffman. But the condition is, in fact, treatable, says Tami Green, a woman in Houston who says she has been cured of the disorder and is now on a mission to spread the word about what exactly BPD is and how it can be relieved." -- San Antonio Express News

'''This is an article about an interview in which Ms. Green is quoted. This is by definition not a reliable source.''' Whether an individula overcame a problem is not in itself noteworth. The souces cited were not independent assessments.

It seems to me that I didn't do a good job of explaining Green's notability in the article, so I was wondering if I could get some feedback from you on how to go about it when trying again. For instance, it would really help if you could discuss a bit more which notability guidelines Tami Green did or didn't meet. When deciding whether to write the article, I thought that she met the basic criteria of having been the subject of multiple published secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject, and that she has made a major contribution to the field just by existing: she has a severe condition that is thought to be untreatable even among healthcare professionals, and she recovered, and has gone on to have a career (any career) despite a condition for which vocational ability is severely hindered, even when compared to other personality disorders (see wiki article on borderline personality disorder for more details if you're interested).

What her contribution was to the field was certainly not in the article that I read.

In general, it confuses me that wikipedia considers criminals to be notable, such as Jane Andrews who is explained as being notable for a sensational murder, but not Tami Green, who is notable for a sensational recovery (sensational in the field of psychology and psychiatry, in any case). '''I have no idea, I am not Wikipedia, I have no idea why that was considered a worthwhile submission. I am just a person who is exercising judgement about a particular article.''' Could you help explain it to me? That's a sincere question; I really am just trying to understand wiki's guidelines. Thanks so much! Firecatalta (talk) 4:56 pm, Today (UTC−5)

I am generally a person of not having any disorders of any type of symptoms to anything mental issues. As an individual I am #HIV positive that has technically done lots and lots of researches of conducting and balancing my health .. Tammi Green I have never met her nor i have met her before but due to me meeting multiple people and individuals that have pretty much gave me insights of their own personality and what has caused reasons to their ways of thinking and ways of recovering and not increasing levels of stresd, stress is mainly what increases an individuals disorder or disease to higher levels to maintain on keeping it under control with medication is good. I myself I'm a physcic and I have no education in any fields my views and health and also eating healthy and keeping up with nutritions and vitamins in our body so that does let disease be eliminated and pushed out your body slowly having intuition and belief to staying healthy and becoming healthy in full recovery it is only based on keeping up with ur health and stress and continuously a sensation of life and health is a complete answer to #Goodhealth Toy Epic (talk) 22:04, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Jeffrey Dahmer
Hey, I just wanted to let you know that at the Jeffrey Dahmer page it says that he had "antisocial personality disorder", when in fact he didn't. I just thought that you should change it to BPD, which was his primary diagnosis and it was what lead him to commit his crimes he said he "loved" his victims, but didn't want them to leave-fear of abandonment). You could also add his other diagnosis. Also there is a category called "people with borderline personality disorder" and he should be included in that. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.198.9.182 (talk) 22:01, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi there! Thank you for the heads up, and I'll make those changes as soon as I catch a free moment.  One note about his primary diagnosis being BPD is that the source we currently have says that there was some disagreement over his primary diagnosis (have a look at his entry in the BPD article), and in the current absence of other sources, that's the info I have to use.  However, if you can find a source that his primary diagnosis was BPD, as always, please feel free to put it in and/or to let me know!   Firecatalta (talk) 23:42, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

BPD, sexual perversion and masochism
Many studies have been done on paraphilias and BPD and the results are always consistent: BPD patients (not all but most) also suffer with paraphilias, especially sexual masochism. There is a well established link between BPD and sexual addictions. The DSM-III-R "masochistic personality disorder" showed over 50% overlap with BPD. Another thing is male homosexuality and BPD. Studies consistently show that a very high percentage of men with BPD are either homosexual or bisexual. Go to this link [www.aapel.org/bpd/BLsexUS.html here] and [www.ncbi.nlm.gov/pubmed/3591995 here].


 * Hi there! Thank you for the information.  Neither of the links that you provided worked when I put them into my browser; could you post them again?  I'm thinking there must have been a typo.  On the note of "self-defeating/masochistic personality disorder," it was never actually admitted to the DSM-III, and in any case, we're on the DSM-IV now and about to have the DSM-V in a few more months.  The point being that it was never accepted as a diagnosis to give people, nor is it included in the current edition of the DSM.  I'm curious, are you responding to the thread above?  In any case, it would greatly help me if you could sign your posts at the end with four tildes in a row (~ ~ ~ ~) but without the spaces.  That will help me know that it's "you" when we have these conversations, which should help us both stay on the same page. :-)  Firecatalta (talk) 02:01, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Links
The site is: www.aapel.org/bdp/BLsexUS.html and for the other one just Google "borderline personality personality and homosexuality" and you will find A LOT of info. These sexual compulsions and homosexuality should be mentioned in the article. 74.198.9.136 (talk) 02:23, 12 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for reposting and signing, much appreciated! So the first link itself is not a reliable source (no editorial oversight), but I do see that it links to some interesting studies.  Unfortunately the studies it links to are all from over 20 years ago (the most recent is from 1992), and wiki guidelines for medical articles (a category that includes psychiatric articles) are very clear that studies need to be as current as possible.  You've raised some interesting questions though, and I'm wondering if there are more recent studies available on the subject.  I also agree that sexuality and BPD is a very interesting topic, and if you have reliable, third-party, and recent studies on the subject, please feel free and encouraged to add that info!  I'll also have a look as well as soon as I finish work on some other projects.  Firecatalta (talk) 02:33, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Angelina Jolie was diagnosed with BPD
Hi, just found out that Angelina Jolie was diagnosed with BPD in the 90's when she voluntarily checked into the Neuropsychiatric Institute for suicidal and homicidal ideation. She suffered from anorexia and was an extreme "cutter". This is stated in the book "Angelina Jolie: Angel in Disguise" by Edgar Mcfay and in the book "Angelina: An Unauthorized Biography" by Andrew Morton. Some links: prezi.com/mpbxpslp0yjj/borderline-personality-disorder/ and www.anythingtostopthepain.com/angelina-jolie-borderline-personality-disorder-angie/ 74.198.9.194 (talk) 02:05, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi there! I searched the phrase "personality disorder" in "Angelina: An Unauthorized Biography" via Google books, and the only mention of the phrase is on page 154, in reference to a character (not played by Jolie) in a movie that Jolie stars in, Girl, Interrupted.  Wikipedia guidelines ask us to be very careful with the inclusion of biographical info about a living person, so I have removed her entry in the Notable People section for now.  I haven't found a searchable version of the first book you mention, but if you can verify that it includes that info (please include page numbers), feel free to put her back in!  Checking the source yourself will help make sure that your hard work on edits won't later need to be reverted. In any case, thank you for your continued efforts on this article!  Firecatalta (talk) 00:23, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

You've got mail!
Lova Falk    talk   08:40, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

A kitten for you!
I miss you!

Lova Falk    talk   16:41, 2 May 2013 (UTC) 

I miss you too! Thank you for the kitten; it is so cute!! And, you have mail. :-) Firecatalta (talk) 16:58, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * You're back!! [[Image:Smile.png|30px]]  Lova Falk     talk   17:09, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * What can I say, I will do anything for kittens! It is good to be back, and I think I just need to go a bit slower with my editing.  I'm sure you can more than relate!  Firecatalta (talk) 17:12, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh I can, I can!  Lova Falk     talk   17:50, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Miller Twitter Controversy
Hey, I just wanted to apologize to you. Originally I was a little terse and accused you of editorial bias for adding the section back with such fervor. I think your responses have been reasonable, and thanks for putting so much work into the post! (I have not found any reliable secondary sources, incidentally; a targeted search of Miller's name over the past decade doesn't reveal anything worthy of a Wikipedia page as far as I can tell.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.228.216.175 (talk) 23:26, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
 * No worries! I think I actually was operating with a bias, and I didn't realize it until you pointed it out.  So I'm glad you did!  It's remarkable the things we don't realize about ourselves until we get feedback from someone with an outside perspective.  As for Miller, I've been looking as well, and it's probably time to nominate for deletion. Firecatalta (talk) 23:43, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

SCIACCA REMOVED AGAIN --- RESPONSE TO FIRECATALTA - i have not made any changes to any part of the text on the dual diagnosis page. I am trying to communicate with editor "FIRECATALTA". I CLICKED ON YOUR NAME ( A LIVE LINK) AND I DO NOT SEE ANY WAY TO SEND YOU A MESSAGE at your page. I am used to not knowing what to do on wikipedia. I hope you will receive and provide a timely reply to this new message May 23, 2017. WE HAVE HAD SOME INTRICATE DISCUSSIONS REGARDING SCIACCA'S CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE FIELD OF DUAL DIAGNOSIS. THE SENTENCE IN THE "HISTORY" SECTION REFERENCES VERY LITTLE OF THAT CONTRIBUTION AND DOES NOT CLARIFY the breadth and scope of the initial work and the evolution stemming from that initial work. The notice of Sciacca SEEMs EXTREMELY MARGINALIZED FOR SOMEONE WHO WAS THE INNOVATOR OF ANY TREATMENT WHATSOEVER FOR THE TREATMENT OF A WORLDWIDE NEGLECTED POPULATION OF PEOPLE WHO HAD SERIOUS ILLNESSES AND WERE TREATED AS CRIMINALS in many cases. IN ADDITION THE KEY LINE IN the history section ...THE MID 1980's etc., etc. references one Sciacca publication and a Drake, et. al. publication - Drake, et. al. had done nothing in regards to dual diagnosis in the mid 1980's, they were not even on the scene and should not be referenced there in the same sentence which implies they made contributions during the time of inception of treatment in 1984 for the dually diagnosed which they did not. In addition I have searched out other sources of articles/ videos (one in the library of congress) primary, secondary, tertiary, etc. These denote this "first" original, pioneering work where the ground work was performed and demonstrated and the difficult task of creating enthusiasm for mental health workers to treat substance abuse and substance abuse programs to acknowledge and address mental health - this yielded program development across systems and services and statewide initiatives where nothing had been done before and a great deal of neglect and frustration ensued. I look forward to hearing from you to review the exchanges we have had and the additional materials I have acquired. I am hopeful that a just result will ensue here. I am very uncomfortable to leave this as it is. 69.86.190.126 (talk) 05:06, 23 May 2017 (UTC)    (69.86.190.126 (talk) 05:06, 23 May 2017 (UTC)). 69.86.190.126 (talk) 05:06, 23 May 2017 (UTC) (talk) (69.86.190.126 (talk) 05:06, 23 May 2017 (UTC)) May 23, 2017 69.86.190.126 (talk) 05:06, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

RESPONSE TO FIRECATALTA - SCIACCA REMOVED AGAIN. With the criteria you used to remove the Sciacca text you will need to remove 99% of the text in the dual diagnosis article. The references, except for the "report to congress" are primary in all other cases, not tertiary. All are references to author's own work as contribution to the field. You may need to remove each of these and request tertiary sources for each of them to keep this article fair, unbiased and unprejudiced. Your statement "we need some secondary or tertiary sources that explain why Sciacca is notable enough to be included in this article" is applicable to everyone referenced by their own primary source literature in this article, not just Sciacca. Examples examples: Drake, Mueser, and many others. Some of the text is followed by misleading references. For example the current text in the article specific to "integrated treatment" is followed by a primary source reference by "Drake" (self authored). Drake did not initiate integrated treatment and may have talked about it in his article.

On the other hand -There are many tertiary sources for Sciacca's work, here are some of them:

1998 -SAMHSA-CMHS Managed Care Initiative Co-Occurring Disorder Report: Co-Occurring Psychiatric and Substance Disorders in Managed Care Systems: Standards of Care, Practice Guidelines, Workforce Competencies and Training Curricula. Minkoff, K. 1991' " Program Components of Comprehensive Integrated Care System for Serious Mentally Ill Patients with Subsance Disorders." New Directions for Mental Health Services, Dual Diagnosis of Major Mental Illness and Substance Disorders, Eds.,  Minkoff, K  and Drake, R.,  Jossey-Bass, publishers, summer 1991, #50. '''Commission on Mental Health Services, Washington DC, Government of the District of Columbia, 1999 ''' "29 Mental Health Care Providers Honored for ATMI Program Implementation"  Publication of the Commission on Mental Health Services, Washington DC, Fall 1999. service 51 additional treatment teams - which in fact occurred.
 * This was the first federal report on dual diagnosis - co-occurring disorders. Sciacca's work is included from various perspectives and references are included in the report.
 * Minkoff discusses and references Sciacca's work.
 * This article details the dual diagnosis training and program implementation initiative and details of the graduation of 29 providers and agencies. Sciacca was the consultant, trainer and implementer of these services and named as such.  The second phase of this initiative was outlined -here Sciacca was to

Giglioti, M. A. 1986 "Program Initiatives for Dually-Diagnosed at Harlem Valley Psychiatric Center. Dual Diagnosis -Co-occurring Disorders." New York State Commission on Quality of Care Publication, Issue 28, October 1986. The Commission on Quality of care thoroughly reviewed this work on program sites.
 * This article details the Sciacca initiative from its inception in 1984 and describes this work.

Gorman, C., 1987  "Bad Trips for the Doubly Troubled"  TIME Magazine, August 3, 1987, Pg. 58.
 * Sciacca's work is detailed in this article. Her programs were visited by Gorman, clients were interviewed, treatment groups were attended and the report was published internationally.

Lipman, H. 1988 "Mental-health system fails alcoholics, drug abusers"  Albany Times Union, March 13, 1988, Pg. 1..

Brown, V. B., 1989 "The Dual Crisis: Mental Illness and Substance Abuse" American Psychologist. Volume 44, No. 3, March 1989, Pg. 565.

I provided a lengthy response to the editor Lova Falk who previously eradicated this area of text and whom you are now assisting. Lova Falk stated that she reinstated the text but I do not see it in the article. So I suppose you removed it after she put it back. Is that so? In the to response to Lova Falk, which you indicated that you read, I noted that the original text in this area included numerous references. There was an interum edit that removed many of the references some tertiary) and left the three reference that are included in the text that is now in question. I have done a lot of work validating a piece of text that does not do this historical work justice. Those who have eradicated the modest text that addressed the history of this work do not appear to be willing to extend themselves or their efforts to learn about the premise and the history of dual diagnosis. This is not a basis for eradicating text. 24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

RESPONSE TO FIRECATALTA - SCIACCA REMOVED AGAIN. With the criteria you used to remove the Sciacca text you will need to remove 99% of the text in the dual diagnosis article. The references, except for the "report to congress" are primary in all other cases, not tertiary. All are references to author's own work as contribution to the field. You may need to remove each of these and request tertiary sources for each of them to keep this article fair, unbiased and unprejudiced. Your statement "we need some secondary or tertiary sources that explain why Sciacca is notable enough to be included in this article" is applicable to everyone referenced by their own primary source literature in this article, not just Sciacca. Examples examples: Drake, Mueser, and many others. Some of the text is followed by misleading references. For example the current text in the article specific to "integrated treatment" is followed by a primary source reference by "Drake" (self authored). Drake did not initiate integrated treatment and may have talked about it in his article. On the other hand -There are many tertiary sources for Sciacca's work, here are some of them: 1998 -SAMHSA-CMHS Managed Care Initiative Co-Occurring Disorder Report: Co-Occurring Psychiatric and Substance Disorders in Managed Care Systems: Standards of Care, Practice Guidelines, Workforce Competencies and Training Curricula. This was the first federal report on dual diagnosis - co-occurring disorders. Sciacca's work is included from various perspectives and references are included in the report. Minkoff, K. 1991' " Program Components of Comprehensive Integrated Care System for Serious Mentally Ill Patients with Subsance Disorders." New Directions for Mental Health Services, Dual Diagnosis of Major Mental Illness and Substance Disorders, Eds., Minkoff, K and Drake, R., Jossey-Bass, publishers, summer 1991, #50. Minkoff discusses and references Sciacca's work. Commission on Mental Health Services, Washington DC, Government of the District of Columbia, 1999 "29 Mental Health Care Providers Honored for ATMI Program Implementation" Publication of the Commission on Mental Health Services, Washington DC, Fall 1999. This article details the dual diagnosis training and program implementation initiative and details of the graduation of 29 providers and agencies. Sciacca was the consultant, trainer and implementer of these services and named as such. The second phase of this initiative was outlined -here Sciacca was to service 51 additional treatment teams - which in fact occurred. Giglioti, M. A. 1986 "Program Initiatives for Dually-Diagnosed at Harlem Valley Psychiatric Center. Dual Diagnosis -Co-occurring Disorders." New York State Commission on Quality of Care Publication, Issue 28, October 1986. This article details the Sciacca initiative from its inception in 1984 and describes this work. The Commission on Quality of care thoroughly reviewed this work on program sites. Gorman, C., 1987 "Bad Trips for the Doubly Troubled" TIME Magazine, August 3, 1987, Pg. 58. Sciacca's work is detailed in this article. Her programs were visited by Gorman, clients were interviewed, treatment groups were attended and the report was published internationally. Lipman, H. 1988 "Mental-health system fails alcoholics, drug abusers" Albany Times Union, March 13, 1988, Pg. 1.. Brown, V. B., 1989 "The Dual Crisis: Mental Illness and Substance Abuse" American Psychologist. Volume 44, No. 3, March 1989, Pg. 565. I provided a lengthy response to the editor Lova Falk who previously eradicated this area of text and whom you are now assisting. Lova Falk stated that she reinstated the text but I do not see it in the article. So I suppose you removed it after she put it back. Is that so? In the to response to Lova Falk, which you indicated that you read, I noted that the original text in this area included numerous references. There was an interum edit that removed many of the references some tertiary) and left the three reference that are included in the text that is now in question. I have done a lot of work validating a piece of text that does not do this historical work justice. Those who have eradicated the modest text that addressed the history of this work do not appear to be willing to extend themselves or their efforts to learn about the premise and the history of dual diagnosis. This is not a basis for eradicating text. 24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC)24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:26, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Sciacca removed again

' Hi all! I've re-removed the text below. The current sources are primary, which is fantastic once we have already established Sciacca's notability by way of secondary or tertiary sources, but until then, we need some secondary or tertiary sources that explain why Sciacca is notable enough to be included in this article. Does anyone have access to such sources? If so, please reply with the appropriate reliable, secondary or tertiary (not written by Scaccia) sources to back up Scaccia's inclusion in this article. Thanks! Firecatalta (talk) 00:17, 4 July 2013 (UTC) Sciacca reported a key early integrated treatment approach which began in 1984 in New York state.[1] This began in an outpatient mental health clinic and expanded to a state-wide initiative. This initiative crossed systems to include substance abuse programs, homeless services, and criminal justice services. It included inpatient, outpatient and residential treatment. This initiative addressed screening, assessment, outcome measures and treatment. This treatment approach, along with its training curriculum and program implementation model, was also adapted across systems in various states including Michigan.[2] In 1993, evidence based interventions such as motivational interviewing, the stages of change and cognitive behavioral therapy were integrated into the dual diagnosis treatment model and comprise the treatment approach and integrated care model that exists today [3] 1. Sciacca, K. 1996 "On Co-occurring Addictive and Mental Disorders: A Brief History of the Origins of Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development" American Journal of Orhtopsychiatry (66) 3, July 1996. http://www.scribd.com/doc/16684317/On-Cooccurring-Addictive-Mental-Disorders-a-Brief-History-Kathleen-Sciacca 2. Sciacca, K., Thompson, C.M., 1996 "Program Development and Integrated Treatment Across Systems for Dual Diagnosis: Mental Illness, Drug Addiction and Alcoholism, MIDAA" The Journal of Mental Health Administration, Vol. 23, No.3, Summer 1996, 288-297. http://www.scribd.com/doc/17223077/Program-Development-and-Integrated-Treatment-Across-Systems-for-Dual-Diagnosis-Kathleen-Sciacca 3. Sciacca, K. 2009 "Best Practices for Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development: Co-Occurring Mental Illness and Substance Disorders in Various Combinations" The Praeger International Collections on Addictions, Editor, Angela Brown-Miller, Vol.3, Chapt.9, Pgs. 161-188, Praeger Westport, CT. London, http://www.scribd.com/doc/21801032/BestPracticesForDualDiagnosisTreatment-ProgramDevelopment-Co-occurring-Mental-Illness-Substance-Disorders-Kathleen-Sciacca-2009 24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you!

Thank you for your help with Dual diagnosis. I just don't have the energy for this discussion, so I'm gone from that article. Thank you once more! Lova Falk talk 17:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC){{-} Absolutely! I definitely know the feeling. Glad to be of assistance, and I hope you're doing well! Firecatalta (talk) 20:33, 3 July 2013 (UTC) 24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Sciacca removed again
' Hi all! I've re-removed the text below. The current sources are primary, which is fantastic once we have already established Sciacca's notability by way of secondary or tertiary sources, but until then, we need some secondary or tertiary sources that explain why Sciacca is notable enough to be included in this article. Does anyone have access to such sources? If so, please reply with the appropriate reliable, secondary or tertiary (not written by Scaccia) sources to back up Scaccia's inclusion in this article. Thanks! Firecatalta (talk) 00:17, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Sciacca reported a key early integrated treatment approach which began in 1984 in New York state. This began in an outpatient mental health clinic and expanded to a state-wide initiative. This initiative crossed systems to include substance abuse programs, homeless services, and criminal justice services. It included inpatient, outpatient and residential treatment. This initiative addressed screening, assessment, outcome measures and treatment. This treatment approach, along with its training curriculum and program implementation model, was also adapted across systems in various states including Michigan. In 1993, evidence based interventions such as motivational interviewing, the stages of change and cognitive behavioral therapy were integrated into the dual diagnosis treatment model and comprise the treatment approach and integrated care model that exists today

1. Sciacca, K. 1996 "On Co-occurring Addictive and Mental Disorders: A Brief History of the Origins of Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development" American Journal of Orhtopsychiatry (66) 3, July 1996. http://www.scribd.com/doc/16684317/On-Cooccurring-Addictive-Mental-Disorders-a-Brief-History-Kathleen-Sciacca 2. Sciacca, K., Thompson, C.M., 1996 "Program Development and Integrated Treatment Across Systems for Dual Diagnosis: Mental Illness, Drug Addiction and Alcoholism, MIDAA" The Journal of Mental Health Administration, Vol. 23, No.3, Summer 1996, 288-297. http://www.scribd.com/doc/17223077/Program-Development-and-Integrated-Treatment-Across-Systems-for-Dual-Diagnosis-Kathleen-Sciacca 3. Sciacca, K. 2009 "Best Practices for Dual Diagnosis Treatment and Program Development: Co-Occurring Mental Illness and Substance Disorders in Various Combinations" The Praeger International Collections on Addictions, Editor, Angela Brown-Miller, Vol.3, Chapt.9, Pgs. 161-188, Praeger Westport, CT. London, http://www.scribd.com/doc/21801032/BestPracticesForDualDiagnosisTreatment-ProgramDevelopment-Co-occurring-Mental-Illness-Substance-Disorders-Kathleen-Sciacca-2009 '' 24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

RESPONSE TO FIRECATALTA - SCIACCA REMOVED AGAIN. With the criteria you used to remove the Sciacca text you will need to remove 99% of the text in the dual diagnosis article. The references, except for the "report to congress" are primary in all other cases, not tertiary. All are references to author's own work as contribution to the field. You may need to remove each of these and request tertiary sources for each of them to keep this article fair, unbiased and unprejudiced. Your statement "we need some secondary or tertiary sources that explain why Sciacca is notable enough to be included in this article" is applicable to everyone referenced by their own primary source literature in this article, not just Sciacca. Examples examples: Drake, Mueser, and many others. Some of the text is followed by misleading references. For example the current text in the article specific to "integrated treatment" is followed by a primary source reference by "Drake" (self authored). Drake did not initiate integrated treatment and may have talked about it in his article.

On the other hand -There are many tertiary sources for Sciacca's work, here are some of them:

This was the first federal report on dual diagnosis - co-occurring disorders. Sciacca's work is included from various perspectives and references are included in the report. Minkoff discusses and references Sciacca's work. This article details the dual diagnosis training and program implementation initiative and details of the graduation of 29 providers and agencies. Sciacca was the consultant, trainer and implementer of these services and named as such. The second phase of this initiative was outlined -here Sciacca was to service 51 additional treatment teams - which in fact occurred. This article details the Sciacca initiative from its inception in 1984 and describes this work. The Commission on Quality of care thoroughly reviewed this work on program sites. Sciacca's work is detailed in this article. Her programs were visited by Gorman, clients were interviewed, treatment groups were attended and the report was published internationally.
 * 1998 -SAMHSA-CMHS Managed Care Initiative Co-Occurring Disorder Report: Co-Occurring Psychiatric and Substance Disorders in Managed Care Systems: Standards of Care, Practice Guidelines, Workforce Competencies and Training Curricula.
 * Minkoff, K. 1991' " Program Components of Comprehensive Integrated Care System for Serious Mentally Ill Patients with Subsance Disorders." New Directions for Mental Health Services, Dual Diagnosis of Major Mental Illness and Substance Disorders, Eds., Minkoff, K and Drake, R., Jossey-Bass, publishers, summer 1991, #50.
 * Commission on Mental Health Services, Washington DC, Government of the District of Columbia, 1999 "29 Mental Health Care Providers Honored for ATMI Program Implementation" Publication of the Commission on Mental Health Services, Washington DC, Fall 1999.
 * Giglioti, M. A. 1986 "Program Initiatives for Dually-Diagnosed at Harlem Valley Psychiatric Center. Dual Diagnosis -Co-occurring Disorders." New *York State Commission on Quality of Care Publication, Issue 28, October 1986.
 * Gorman, C., 1987 "Bad Trips for the Doubly Troubled" TIME Magazine, August 3, 1987, Pg. 58.
 * Lipman, H. 1988 "Mental-health system fails alcoholics, drug abusers" Albany Times Union, March 13, 1988, Pg. 1..
 * Brown, V. B., 1989 "The Dual Crisis: Mental Illness and Substance Abuse" American Psychologist. Volume 44, No. 3, March 1989, Pg. 565.

I provided a lengthy response to the editor Lova Falk who previously eradicated this area of text and whom you are now assisting. Lova Falk stated that she reinstated the text but I do not see it in the article. So I suppose you removed it after she put it back. Is that so? In the to response to Lova Falk, which you indicated that you read, I noted that the original text in this area included numerous references. There was an interum edit that removed many of the references some tertiary) and left the three reference that are included in the text that is now in question. I have done a lot of work validating a piece of text that does not do this historical work justice. Those who have eradicated the modest text that addressed the history of this work do not appear to be willing to extend themselves or their efforts to learn about the premise and the history of dual diagnosis. This is not a basis for eradicating text. 24.215.246.197 (talk) 21:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

To Firecatalta - Have you received my last response to you on the dual diagnosis talk page?24.215.246.197 (talk) 16:02, 5 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi there! I did receive your last response, and I apologize for the delay in getting back to you.  Life outside of wikipedia has been keeping me pretty busy this week, and I want to make sure that I take the time to give you a truly thought-out reply.  In any case, I will get back to you as soon as possible, and hopefully by Sunday.  Enjoy the weekend!  Firecatalta (talk) 21:28, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi there! Could you please respond to my last two messages. This is the last one: Hi, I have not had a response from you - I have just returned.. Can you put the Sciacca text back either where it was before it was removed, in treatment; or under a new heading "History of treatment and program development." Please let me know if you are going to do this or if I should it. As I said a few times I am not skilled at reinstating the references, I would need someone to put them back in order in the reference section and identify them appropriately in the text. But if you are too busy to put it back then I will. Could you take a minute and let me know. I have given this much of my time. Thank you.24.215.246.197 (talk) 01:00, 13 July 2013 (UTC) This is going on for months now, please restore this text and we can proceed from there.24.215.246.197 (talk) 14:47, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi There, I responded to your last requests. I was very frustrated and feeling manipulated while doing so. I have many other important things I need to be doing. Could you respond to this today, Sunday, so I will not have to wait until next Sunday? Or should I find an editor on Wikipedia who could help me reinstate the text as it was or revised? Just let me know so we can both move on. Thank you. 24.215.246.197 (talk) 23:18, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I can see that you are very frustrated with the way things are going, and I'm sorry you've been having such a difficult experience with these edits. My reply is on your talk page now.  I will do my best to be on Wikipedia during the coming week to help move our discussion along.  Best, Firecatalta (talk) 00:46, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you!
Thank you for your help with Dual diagnosis. I just don't have the energy for this discussion, so I'm gone from that article. Thank you once more! Lova Falk    talk   17:44, 3 July 2013 (UTC){{-}
 * Absolutely! I definitely know the feeling. Glad to be of assistance, and I hope you're doing well!  Firecatalta (talk) 20:33, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you, I am fine, but I just needed a couple of days without Wikipedia. I hope you are doing fine as well, and that you have a lovely summer!  Lova Falk     talk   18:25, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I hear that! Mini-wiki breaks are what I have had to resort to to keep from getting burned out, and I can only imagine how much more so in your case. My summer is lovely so far, and I hope yours is too!  Firecatalta (talk) 21:30, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi There, I responded to your last requests. I was very frustrated and feeling manipulated while doing so. I have many other important things I need to be doing. Could you respond to this today, Sunday, so I will not have to wait until next Sunday? Or should I find an editor on Wikipedia who could help me reinstate the text as it was or revised? Just let me know so we can both move on. Thank you.24.215.246.197 (talk) 23:15, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

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Crossing Jordan is Borderline
I'll echo the thanks for your work on the article and Talk for Borderline Personality Disorder. I started reading back through the Archives, and noticed there has been a shift over the years to include fictional representations. (I recognize this is because the representations have been properly sourced.) Generally, I'm opposed to "In popular culture" sections, in part because they tend to be trivial, but in the case of the Borderline Personality Disorder article, I feel oppositely. I have a couple reasons:

A) The Borderline article is long, and even with all the careful work, will be difficult for many to read. (I noted ironically the quote that families that know more about Borderline may feel worse than those who are ignorant.) The media section, however, is quite easy to read, and since it doesn't personalize the conditions, but externalizes them, it's a lot easier to swallow.

B) A picture is worth a thousand words, and with personality disorders, that would seem to be especially true. If you've never seen someone with Down Syndrome (not a personality disorder), it's difficult to describe, but once seen, often easy enough to recognize. Movies and TV can play a valuable role here, particularly if the representation is accurate.

I know two diagnosed Borderline Personalities well. I'm bringing Crossing Jordan to your attention for a couple reasons. It's evident that the lead character "Jordan Cavanaugh" is Borderline. (But I'm not familiar with the whole usual range of mental disorders.) The show very largely pivots on her "eccentric" character. The Reviews section of that article is interesting, because it manages to include a quote on this very thing. The USA Today reviewer misses cause of Jordon's behavior, but it does put me in mind to find a reliable reference that identifies Jordan as Borderline.

Whether or not you ever manage to find such a thing (I'm not an internet search genius), given your interest in the topic, I imagined you would be interested in watching a couple episodes.

What would be particularly useful in being able to cite "Crossing Jordan" is that the actress's performance is varied, but persistent in exactly the ways I expect from my Borderline acquaintances. Therefore, potentially a very useful reference for general readers and perhaps even professionals. Leptus Froggi (talk) 15:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)


 * That show sounds great; thank you for the suggestion! I agree, it can be so helpful to illustrate various conditions through concrete examples, whether in popular culture, art, or elsewhere.  I will keep an eye out for reliable sources about "Crossing Jordan," and if either of us finds anything, let's definitely add it to the Society and Culture section! Firecatalta (talk) 02:04, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * Thank you, that really brightened up my day! Sorry for my own delay in replying, and thanks again for your hard work! Firecatalta (talk) 15:41, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

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