User talk:Maddy from Celeste/Archive 1

You have received the Teamwork Barnstar!

 * eeee thank you :3 ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 12:57, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Vyappiy
Hello Maddy from Celeste. May I ask, why wasn't Vyappiy moved to Fyappiy but it says that it was in the talk page? The end result of the move request was that it will be moved from Vyappiy to Fyappiy. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 20:12, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi; thanks for asking. I forgot to check whether the article is move-protected before closing (it is). I've posted on WP:RMT asking for an administrator to move it. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 20:15, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, thank you for clarifying. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 20:20, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Question about userboxes
Hey, I just have a question about one of your userboxes, where'd you get that nonbinary userbox from? Also what code did you use to put it in your profile? Thanks! AT1738 (talk) 22:29, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * This one? It's User Nonbinary flag. You can use the edit button on my userpage to see what all the different things are. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 22:32, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yep, thank you! AT1738 (talk) 22:35, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Lol, sorry I have another question!
How do you link a PDF on here? I've never done that on here before, so I just wanted to know how for the future, y'know? Thanks! AT1738 (talk) 22:54, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Depends on what you mean by linking. I think WP:PDF has answers to the cases I could come up with. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 22:57, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

An apology
I believe that discrimination is wrong, and that treating people differently solely on the basis of their color, religion, gender, or sexual identity and preference is likewise wrong, because that makes no difference to me. Everyone deserves acceptance and love. I can see how that can create problems and misunderstandings. There are obviously situations where discernment is necessary, and that's how I usually operate. I am a social justice warrior with a big heart for the downtrodden in society.

Now that I see you are indeed trans and LGBTQ, I am very sorry for any offense. I'm cringing at the thought I may have hurt or offended you. My bad, in a big, BIG way! I will now keep that in mind. You have my full support in defending the trans and LBGTQ communities, and I would really love any tips and advice you can give me so I can do better. I'm an old guy who is learning all these things.

I first got close to these topics in another language (Danish) when I had a fishing buddy in Greenland. His father was part of the first couple to register a homosexual partnership in Denmark, so his dad was quite famous and on the front page of all the magazines and newspapers at the time. That was a great day for the gay community. My friend's wife babysat our son, and they lived in an open relationship as sex did not interest her. That was the closest I had come to gay people in my life at the time (with one exception). I had never had an openly gay/bisexual friend before (and I never knew if he was, or if he was hetero). It made no difference to me, and he never told me. Once we met at his boat to go fishing, and his face was a bloody mess. An Inuit girl he had been with got upset, knocked on his door, and attacked him with all ten claws. She scratched him up pretty bad, and his wife had to defend him.

I have had many other LGBTQ people tangentially in my life since then, especially as patients, but never as close friends. (I have to make an exception there.) One of my patients before moving to Greenland was a Danish expat living in Spain. While visiting Denmark he was my patient. He was one of the first people with AIDS in Denmark. A very sad story there. He was a great guy, a talented ballet dancer, but now very sick. It was hard to touch him or massage him as he would immediately get bad hematomas (bruising). That's how fragile his skin was. My point is that having contact with people in the LGBTQ community does not mean I am well-informed. I still don't know enough about their trials and tribulations or these subjects, so I welcome any help to understand more.

My daughter recently had a breakup up with her boyfriend after he suddenly announced he is bisexual and going to transition to a woman. He has already started hormone therapy and intends to physically transition as well. That all came as a shock to her and us. He insisted on an open relationship, and that was too much for her. She really loved him. Fortunately, we are all still friends. Life gets complicated sometimes.

I just read your Verifiability is truth. Bingo! That is exactly how I feel about it. I am going to copy that to my user page. "Truth" is a very subjective thing and different for everyone, but verifiability is how we learn what is true and factual. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 23:01, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I would really love any tips and advice you can give me so I can do better. – First of all, the queer equivalent to "I'm not racist, I have black friends" is not very convincing. Also, if you're trying to apologize, don't misgender random people in your apology. This guide seems to cover some of the very basics of talking to and about trans people. Now I hope you understand that if someone complains about the way you discuss members of any marginalized group, don't be so easily offended is not an appropriate response. Best, ■ ∃ <b style="color:#C64600">Madeline</b> ⇔ ∃ <b style="color:#613583">Part of me</b> ; 00:03, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much. This is what I need. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 02:13, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The "I'm not racist, I have black friends" is misplaced. Don't apply it to everyone who isn't initiated. Be more friendly and helpful. Note this: "My point is that having contact with people in the LGBTQ community does not mean I am well-informed. I don't know all the correct and constantly changing terminology. I still don't know enough about their trials and tribulations or these subjects, so I welcome any help to understand more." Please AGF.
 * Someone who doesn't understand everything isn't automatically homophobic or transphobic, and I have never been accused of such. I hope you understand that. I mean well and want to help and understand. You don't have to help me, but at least be civil and AGF. You are a representative for you community, so be a good and pleasant ambassador. Make people want to help you, understand you, and not be afraid of you. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 02:41, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Apologies, that did not come out right. Many cishet (cisgender and heterosexual) people in this kind of situation have a strange tendency to enumerate every time they've interacted with an LGBT person, and it usually doesn't seem very relevant. I'm sorry for the way I said that. ■ ∃ <b style="color:#C64600">Madeline</b> ⇔ ∃ <b style="color:#613583">Part of me</b> ; 06:40, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
 * It's okay. I understand that situation. I grew up in a racist and homophobic American society where the "I have black friends" thing was used as a foil to fend off just and accurate accusations of racism, and I, therefore, grew up with those primitive attitudes. When I was young, in the 1950s and 1960s, I actually did use that concept. (After all, my parents deliberately maintained friendly contact with a black family and I played with their children. My parents were trying to do what they could to help me understand through frequent contact and association.) As I got older, I learned better and have changed a lot. Those old attitudes are terrible. In our home (I'm a PK), racism and homophobia were not allowed, but at school, the children, and some parents and teachers were obviously intolerant. Children absorb those destructive attitudes, and that can have more influence than parental actions.
 * I only mentioned my history to illustrate how little I know, NOT how much I know (and therefore could not be a homophobe!). That argument doesn't work at all. I'm an ignorant newbie in this topic area and have not been active in those articles here. I entered that discussion like a blind bull in a china shop, and, not realizing you were trans, I treated you disrespectfully, for which I apologize deeply. I was focused on the policy issues and you were pointing out my poor communication, and I did not understand at all what was really going on and got frustrated. Then I wrote some things that were not exactly appropriate, to put it mildly.
 * I appreciate that link you shared, and I learned several new (to me) things: deadnaming and the need to be more consistent with distinguishing sex from gender. There are other good things in the article, and it closes nicely with an assurance that making mistakes is what can happen, but that we can learn. That's where I'm at now. I have made, and will likely still make, some mistakes, but I hope that you and others will point out my mistakes very specifically so I won't make them again. Specific quotes are how I can grow. (You said "this", but it can be understood as "that".)
 * I forgot to mention that my wife's niece is in hormone therapy as a trans man and intends to undergo surgery. She changed her name several years ago and has tried several different names, but I think she's settled on one. Her mother is understanding, but sadly her father is having a very hard time with it. They are in their 80s, so change doesn't come easy. We support her and wish her well. Life is not easy for her. Fortunately, Danish society is much more progressive than American society, and she will also have no medical expenses. These are her rights there. As an American, I am so often ashamed of how society and politicians deal with these situations. We do not treat minority groups well. We are very backward compared to many European countries.
 * Feel free to contact me if and when I goof up. I will treasure that help. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:56, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Valjean, as @Maddy from Celeste said previously, please don't misgender trans people. A trans man is a man regardless of his hormonal or surgical status, so it is inappropriate to refer to him as your wife's "niece" or with she/her pronouns. (ETA: Unless you meant to say "trans woman".) Funcrunch (talk) 22:02, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay, so I should have said "nephew", is that right? (Now that I read what I wrote, I see that I just slipped right back into the way we used to refer to him by saying "she" and "her". Crap! I see him only once every four years or so. I'm still learning and just translated directly from Danish without thinking about it. That was the first time I had spoken about him in English, and these things aren't treated the same in all languages. I need to think more about this, and think a lot more before I speak and write. My brain needs to make new neural pathways! It's like suddenly discovering I need to use a different dictionary when dealing with trans subjects. Is there an article here about the various terms to use? If not, we need one. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 04:09, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
 * GLAAD has a decent glossary of transgender terms as part of their media reference guide. Funcrunch (talk) 04:43, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Funcrunch, thanks for that great resource. I have read part of it and will continue to read it. Reading it does not translate into instant full knowledge and internalization of the information, but it's a good place to start. With time I hope to internalize that info. It needs to replace old internalized and unenlightened personal and societal habits. An example on this page is when I unconsciously used our habitual terms of "her" and "she" for my wife's "niece", who is now a trans man (even her parents sometimes accidentally refer to him as "her"). I should have referred to him as my wife's "nephew" and used traditional male pronouns. Already there I goofed up because of old habits that need to be changed. I appreciate your help. Feel free to contact me by email or on my talk page. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:13, 26 March 2023 (UTC)


 * , I had meant to contact you earlier to encourage you to focus on content, not editors, and to talk with you more about your good intentions and ideas for how to constructively express them. But I see you have written above to Maddy You are a representative for you community, so be a good and pleasant ambassador. Make people want to help you, understand you, and not be afraid of you, and I feel I should formally encourage you to review WP:NPA and ask you to be very careful when talking about the personal characteristics of editors and to avoid suggesting that anyone is a representative for their particular (marginalized or majority) group. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 20:45, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Honestly, though I initially decided to let it be, I can't say I disagree with this. It's not fair to bestow upon me responsibility for how people view my community simply because of who I am. ■ ∃ <b style="color:#C64600">Madeline</b> ⇔ ∃ <b style="color:#613583">Part of me</b> ; 20:53, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh boy! I'm really screwing up, aren't I? First I offended you, and now I unfairly burdened you with a responsibility you should not have to bear. Again, I am so sorry. Is there any hope for me? -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 04:09, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Of course there is hope for you, and you may find this helpful to consider: When it Comes to Bias, We Must Prioritize Impact Over Intent, particulary the "How can we prioritize impact?" section. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 05:41, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Beccaynr, that's a great article! (The ADL, like the SPLC, is a great organization.) I have read it, and, as I just mentioned above to Funcrunch, I need to internalize that info. Hope lies in that direction. It comes through enlightenment, and that comes through knowledge and experience. Unfortunately, I don't get any experience at home because I have no current contact with any trans people. My daughter's ex-"boy"friend, who is now transitioning to a trans woman, is sadly out of the picture, so no help there. My only contacts are here, and they have been traumatic for all parties, for which I am truly sorry. My ignorance has caused harm and offense. That's not good. I fully intend to change that situation. I am a political progressive, and this is an area where I need to progress. In the meantime, I think I'll create a personal subpage as a sort of safe meeting ground where I can collect links and resources, and where anyone, especially very patient trans people, who feels inclined can come and discuss with me. I'll ping relevant people. They can educate me IF they wish. I need that interaction to really learn this stuff because I can't do it alone, and I don't want to keep blundering around like a blind bull in a china shop hurting trans people. I need help from people who have been down this road and who "have the goods." I ned to talk to experienced and knowledgeable people. It's best this happens on a private subpage rather than here or on article talk pages. I have already caused enough suffering to Maddy. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 17:33, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I have already caused enough suffering to Maddy. – don't worry about it too much. I find it heartening to see you learning these things with an open mind  ■ ∃ <b style="color:#C64600">Madeline</b> ⇔ ∃ <b style="color:#613583">Part of me</b> ; 17:43, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I have started a subpage, so feel free to contribute or comment there: User:Valjean/LGBTQ resources -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 03:46, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
 * @Valjean I can't say I'm entirely in the loop but if the misgendering stuff was just due to you misgendering your daughter in your first message (I presume Male-to female) I see that as being a genuinely somewhat confusing situation due to retroactive nomenclature. This is a hard topic and I believe there have been loads of manual of style debates on it. I'm also trans and idk how to refer to trans people in the past. Immanuelle ❤️💚💙 (talk to the cutest Wikipedian) 06:04, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Immanuelle. It was about my wife's nephew who is transitioning to a trans man. The problem with my faulty communication is indeed related to "retroactive nomenclature", a new term for me. I'd like to ask more questions about that, but don't dare do it here. I'll email you. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me)

I have stricken a few of my unhelpful and ignorant comments above. I'm sure there are more. -- Valjean (talk) ( PING me ) 17:38, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

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