User talk:Sergecross73/Archive 49

Vandalism pt 15
Here's the 15th iteration of Serge's personal WP:AIV. Let me know if you like me to look into any instances that you feel may require warnings, blocks, page protections, or just general intervention. Thanks! Sergecross73  msg me  15:48, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
 * ESports probably could use PC or SP. Lot of minor drive by vandalism as well as repeated anon edits changing eSports to Esports without any discussion, which has been settled through numerous discussions already. -- ferret (talk) 23:22, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Started with a shorter one, since I didn't see any prior history of protection, but let me know if it persists. Sergecross73   msg me  00:54, 28 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Not direct vandalism, but I think is Triple-DDD, just based on his insistence on changing Sega related articles like Sega Sports, Sonic Team, and Amusement Vision‎. ~  Dissident93  ( talk ) 19:28, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * - what's your analysis on the above? Sergecross73   msg me  20:34, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the delayed response, I've had no internet for 2 days. I did notice Iftekharahmed96 making edits on Sega-related articles, however I don't think that they are Tripple-ddd. --The1337gamer (talk) 18:57, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * No problem. I honestly figured the ping didn't work or something. But yeah, I just noticed that, while most of their activity is recent, they created their account back in 2014, so unless Tripple had amazing foresight (unlikely, as he seems to lack basic common sense) or is using another's account, this one does seem less likely. Sergecross73   msg me  19:05, 5 October 2016 (UTC)


 * List of best-selling PC games constant drive by IPs that add Steamspy based sales figures.... -- ferret (talk) 15:13, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Protected. (Seems like Steamspy is the VGChartz of the PC world, eh?) Sergecross73   msg me  15:36, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Steamspy is up front that they represents estimates only and shouldn't be used for hard sales figures, so there's no real arguments. But anons, IPs frequently add anyways. -- ferret (talk) 15:48, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm always taken-aback of the "well an unreliable estimate is better than nothing" approach I see people attempt so much, especially in infoboxes and lists where there's little room to give proper context... Sergecross73   msg me  16:09, 7 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Soap MacTavish Short semiprot. Multiple IPs from different ranges making changes to date/location of death. Seems to be off wiki organized or rotating proxy. Currently the IPs are arguing the date of death is the real-world release date of MW3. -- ferret (talk) 19:47, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
 * All good, CambridgeBayWeather got it. I finally realized today is Soap's death date, so that must be the cause. -- ferret (talk) 19:52, 11 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Tetris needs a month or so of semiprot. IP in the 108.x range has been edit warring since 9/25, continually inserting what appears to be some OR about terms of service. Well past 3RR as well, so feel free to block the current IP :) There is an open edit war case and RFPP request as well. -- ferret (talk) 17:26, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Someone beat me to it. Let me know if it needs further protection when it ends in a week. ( Also, blocked "NinLucas" for obvious reasons. ) Sergecross73   msg me  20:09, 13 October 2016 (UTC)


 * A user who has almost certainly created sock pockets to garner false "keep" votes in a AfD might need to be checked out., , , and all seem to be the same person. ~  Dissident93  ( talk ) 18:26, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
 * It seems likely, but unlike those Tripple DDD and Zachary Atlus guys, where there's hundreds of edits to look at, I'm not sure I can quite make a sure WP:DUCK call with so few edits. They could be different people with the same mindset - there could be that there was a "call to arms" on the game's messageboard or social media or something. I mean, that's not okay either, but that's not something I could block on the spot for. I've helped by adding the NOTAVOTE and SPA tags. If the debates really need it, I'll get involved and give a stance, but otherwise I'll try to stay uninvolved in case Admin intervention is needed later on (like if they recreate it after a delete consensus at AFD.) They don't really have much of an argument, they just sounds like fans making the typical "well of course its notable" arguments, so I imagine the closing Admin will ignore them and you won't even need my AFD participation. Sergecross73   msg me  19:06, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
 * That's fine, I just thought somebody should know just in case the AfD fails and the article remains simply due to the fact more "keep" votes exist than delete", where maybe whoever closes it doesn't realize that the users who voted for keep are the same person. ~ Dissident93  ( talk ) 04:46, 20 October 2016 (UTC)


 * User does unfounded prosecutions and edits at his own pleasure, deleting comments, edits history and instilling unmotivated hate and warflame., ~  Gibenormann  ( talk ) 03:08, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Youre going to need to show proof before I could even begin to act on such a thing. While you're at it, I'd like to hear your explanation on how every single person who agrees with your stance at the AFD, and only them, all manage to add comments on the same faulty way - at the top of the conversation instead of the bottom. It's weird, as if you're all the same person, or being taught the wrong way by the same person or something... Sergecross73   msg me  02:20, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
 * You have the same exact editing patterns as, and multiple IP addresses (that have the same IP block) also edit the same few articles having to do with Chris Darril. ~ Dissident93  ( talk ) 03:02, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
 * EDIT: is another one of your sockpuppets (unless we just have a wild case of 4-5 separate accounts that only create and try to keep articles on Darill). Also, you can't just be removing delete votes from the AfD. I'm not sure what Wikipedia policy this violates, but it could be ban worth if you continue to do it. ~  Dissident93  ( talk ) 04:42, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

Hey Sergecross73   msg me, I was wondering if you could take a look at the page, some anonymous user did this to my page which I find unnecessary, and was wondering if you could issue a warning to him/her

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=746029111&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop

Thanks! Zacharyalejandro (talk) 22:42, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Hey there. Yeah, that was a weird edit. I've earned the IP. Let me know if you have any more troubles. If it keeps happening, I could protect your user page if need be. Sergecross73   msg me  01:06, 25 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Can you protect List of Mario role-playing games? IP hopper keeps removing the infobox with no explanation and edit warring with multiple users. --The1337gamer (talk) 21:21, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Done, again. I don't know why that page attracts such weird IP edits, but it does... Sergecross73   msg me  21:34, 30 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Another anonymous user keeps doing such edits as opposed to here: here:  and here: . You're welcome in advance. I'll try to keep reporting issues that are suspicious. Zacharyalejandro (talk) 18:24, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
 * You need to warn these users and leave appropriate edit notes before coming here or to AIV to report them. If you don't give them any sort of warning or notice on why their edits are inappropriate, they cannot be said to be acting in bad faith. I have reverted the latest edits as unexplained blanking and issued a first warning. -- ferret (talk) 18:29, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi Zachary. Thank you for reporting the IPs. As Ferret points out though, after only a revert or two, there's really not much I can do in regards to taking any action, other than warning them, which is something that can be done by anyone really. Feel free to report things to me, but it looks like this time Ferret has done just about everything I would do in this case so far. Sergecross73   msg me  19:16, 1 November 2016 (UTC)


 * So, I don't know if you've been following it or not, but the Narcissa Wright article is a WP:BLP that is consistently the target of transphobic vandalism - I think it really could use long-term or indefinite semi-protection. Could you help out with this?--IDVtalk 11:11, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not familiar with Narcissa's speed-running work, (not particularly into speedrunning/livestreaming video game stuff) but I have come across various video games articles in reference to the online harassment. There does seems to be a long-term pattern of disruptive/misguided edits, so I've protected the page. Let me know if issues persist. Thanks! Sergecross73   msg me  14:30, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Yeah, I'm also not interested in game streams and stuff, I just put Narcissa's article on my watchlist because I was worried that it'd get vandalized.--IDVtalk 14:34, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * No problem. I do that same thing for various video game/music related articles. Just curious - was there a particularly recent development with Narcissa? Or is this just on-going issues? Sergecross73   msg me  14:44, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
 * If there were some recent news, I haven't heard about it myself, at least - I think it's "just" the same ongoing harrassment.--IDVtalk 15:02, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Help
I have a new computer and it won't let me upload audio files. I now have an Apple laptop. Statik N (talk) 22:52, 6 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, I've never done any audio uploading on Wikipedia, nor have I ever owned an Apple laptop, so I don't think I can help you with that one... Sergecross73   msg me  21:56, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Giygas
Hello, I wanted to create a page for Giygas, the main antagonist of the Mother series. I've already designated a page for the character, here it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Giygas_(character)&action=edit&redlink=1

There seems to be enough coverage of Giygas, from what I've checked. IGN, WatchMojo, and The A.V. Club have coverage of him. Can you help me?

Thanks, (TheJoebro64 (talk) 21:51, 7 November 2016 (UTC))
 * I can try to help. Just a word of warning - it can be pretty difficult to create articles on video game characters for Wikipedia that don't get deleted. Many characters don't receive third party sources writing detailed sources dedicated to the character, good enough detail to meet Wikipedia's standard for something to have its own article. I've only made one so far - Shulk, though I'm currently working through rough drafts of two more - User:Sergecross73/Lucina and User:Sergecross73/Lin. Its hard because sources don't focus on characters specifically very often. Regardless, I recommend you do it like I do - start up a rough draft (so no one can tag it for deletion while you're still working on it) and see if it looks feasible or not. I haven't actually played any Mother/Earthbound games before, so I'd have a hard time doing too much, but I can help you with sources, rewording, formatting, etc, sure.
 * To start up a userspace draft, just start writing at User:Joebro64/Giygas. Sergecross73   msg me  22:06, 7 November 2016 (UTC)


 * You should not create the character as Giygas (character) since an existing redirect/previous article exists at Giygas. Disambiguation is not needed here. I highly recommend reading the 2014 merger discussion here. Secondly, you can review the articles previous content before being merged here. The best starting point would be to revert the page back to this version, add an Under construction tag, and begin adding more supporting sources and making updates. Because it was boldly redirected, as long as you come prepared with new sources, I believe you'll be fine. However, be prepared for the editors in the merge discussion to pop up and give it scrutiny, if not outright challenge it. -- ferret (talk) 22:28, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Wow, I'm surprised it was merged honestly, that article didn't look that bad. I guess there wasn't all that much discussion on it. Well, I guess it's up to you on what you want to do, JoeBro. Sergecross73   msg me  22:47, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Results May Vary article help
On the charts part of the Results May Vary article, one is in bold and one is NOT in bold. Can you please help me with this? Thanks. Statik N (talk) 01:09, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Starting a table row with an exclamation mark denotes it as a header cell. This bolds the contents and gives it a grey background. I changed the rows to a pipe, which makes them data cells. -- ferret (talk) 01:30, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for helping on that. I was on mobile at the time, and that would have been hard to determine from that... Sergecross73   msg me  15:35, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Re: LGBT characters
I've expressed what I don't like about the criteria and format being proposed so far; yeah, sue me. I expect this will prompt people to suggest some more inclusive criteria. If people agree to use the criteria I don't like, obviously there's nothing I can do to prevent that. But my opposition to the few proposals made so far doesn't mean that I oppose any possible change, only that I think we should explore more possibilities, because I think there are better ones out there.

I *have* explained what I believe should (and shouldn't) be the criteria for this article entries; that you don't like them doesn't mean that I didn't express them. I will continue to denounce the changes I don't like and explain why I don't like them, but I'll try to be nicer about it. Diego (talk) 19:18, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
 * It's not even that you're "not being nice enough about it", its just merely that you've clearly been against virtually all proposed changes, and haven't really been offering any alternative ideas for change. The only real idea you've conceded is that we should follow WP:V which is non-negotiable anyways (and you even seem to grumble when unsourced entries are removed.) There's no way around it - something needs to be changed - consensus on this was clear. Its currently awkwardly trapped half way in between a list and an article, and does a terrible job of being either. If you haven't figured it out yet: Right or wrong, people often target articles looking this ugly for deletion/mergers - that's why it keeps getting sent to AFD. It just seems like you'd take more initiative to shake things up a bit so we can avoid wasting time defending the article's existence. Sergecross73   msg me  19:37, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't like the changes proposed, so let's change something else. Diego (talk) 20:26, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's ultimately what I'm getting at. If you don't like the current proposals, please try to propose some new ones then, because something needs to change with the article. Sergecross73   msg me  20:30, 10 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok, so what do you think of my suggestion, posted at the talk page, to possibly group entries by the categories defined by Adrienne Shaw's paper, rather than by year, in order to have a tighter inclusion criterion? Diego (talk) 10:13, 11 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Are you talking about this paper? Those sorts of sections...seem like they'd have a lot of overlap with one another. I'm afraid we'd have a lot of arguing as to which category it falls into, or lots of redundant entries, where characters are listed over and over again. (Does that Muuki guy from FFVII fall into "characters"? Or "Actions"? Or even "Locations", since it mostly happens in this one place? That's a good organization for that essay, where its written for by a high level educator, but I fear it would not work well in collaborative project written largely by non-professionals. Sergecross73   msg me  13:56, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Sonic timeline
so your saying that the main few sonic games are not the main series i edit?. are you serious? those things i edit are not the main series sonic games Sergecross73? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sonicgalaxy27 (talk • contribs) 01:01, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm saying that titles like Sonic Boom are considered spinoffs, and they don't belong on the timeline called "Mainline Sonic timeline''. Sergecross73   msg me  01:10, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

hey dude some guy name ImageRemovalBot remove the image of ash from sun and moon image dude for some reason. i was trying to undo the image that he remove but after i press undo the image is still not up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sonicgalaxy27 (talk • contribs) 11:49, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Any account that ends in "bot" isn't a person, it's a automated account - a "robot". You image was deleted because you didn't upload it right. I don't deal with images on Wikipedia, so I'm not your guy to go to on this one... Sergecross73   msg me  15:21, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Two-Factor Authentication now available for admins
Hello,

Please note that TOTP based two-factor authentication is now available for all administrators. In light of the recent compromised accounts, you are encouraged to add this additional layer of security to your account. It may be enabled on your preferences page in the "User profile" tab under the "Basic information" section. For basic instructions on how to enable two-factor authentication, please see the developing help page for additional information. Important: Be sure to record the two-factor authentication key and the single use keys. If you lose your two factor authentication and do not have the keys, it's possible that your account will not be recoverable. Furthermore, you are encouraged to utilize a unique password and two-factor authentication for the email account associated with your Wikimedia account. This measure will assist in safeguarding your account from malicious password resets. Comments, questions, and concerns may be directed to the thread on the administrators' noticeboard. MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 20:34, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Hey
Hey Serge, how's it going? I came here to talk about a user that is being unreasonable. User:Walter Görlitz has repeatedly accused me of things that I have not done or unknowingly was incorrect. Here's a report of me making up information for Emery's article, when the previous revision stated that a member had rejoined the band, I simply moved his name in the infobox from former to current. Here's an discussion where a fellow user accused him of WP:HOUND and him dodging that. Here's an article where he accused me of vandalism, where I did no such thing. I added touring members to the timeline, with a category in the timeline specifically for Touring Members. This user has repeatedly sent me message such as "stop editing" or the I treat it like "zine or fan site". This user has become a pain in my side and I'm sick of it. Is there a way to report him? Metalworker14 (Yo) 8:49, November 14, 2016 (UTC)
 * Normally, I'd intervene, but I've got a long history of clashing with him myself, so I'd consider myself too involved to take any Admin actions on him. To report him strictly for his actions and conduct, you'd want to file a report at WP:ANI. If you need help in a content dispute with him (like the touring member stuff), I'd leave that out of the ANI report, and start a discussion on the talk page, and or the relevant WikiProject's talk page. If you're not getting anywhere on that, you could always start up an WP:RFC (again just for the content dispute stuff.) Sergecross73   msg me  14:01, 14 November 2016 (UTC)


 * As a sidenote: In regards to the timeline stuff, he may actually be correct though - I think consensus is currently not to include touring members, as it generally clutters things up pretty quickly. So I'm not sure how much you want to pursue that one...) Sergecross73   msg me  14:01, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Hi
A user is accusing me of something that is most likely a huge misunderstanding at Articles for deletion/Maria Rita Epik. The article subject was part of a boycott at the Eurovision 1979, I mentioned that in my rationale for Keeping the article. The next thing that happens is that user Rms125a@hotmail.com accuses me of basically saying that He by placing the article up for deletion has done some sort of boycott. Either the user is just confused and has not read the article he has put up for AfD or it is just wanting to start a fight I guess. I just find it really baffling how many AfD initiaters that uses the process as a personal playground. I will not respond any further to the user as it seems he is highly unlikely to respond in any reasonable way to any kind of explanation. I also find it baffling that the user is using an almost verge on semi-racist tone in its latest comment towards me about being Turkish and for that reason being anti-semitic (I am Swedish lol). Regards,BabbaQ (talk) 16:59, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to follow things. It looks like you made a comment about "political boycott". You were referring to the subject, but the nominator thought you were referring to the nominator? Is this the correct assessment or am I misunderstanding? Sergecross73   msg me  17:05, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * This looks like it could have been cleared up quickly with a simple "I was referring to the singer, not you." -- ferret (talk) 17:06, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes your assessment is correct. I thought initially that he was just picking a fight with me or similar after the first comment about the boycott. It was not until his second response that it became clear that he thought that I was accusing him of a boycott. And frankly by the tone of the responses from him I am not sure that an explanation from me would be beneficial. It seems to be some sort of vendetta in the situation. I just wanted to alert someone else in case of a escalation.--BabbaQ (talk) 17:09, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The bottom line is, I made a reasonable rationale for Keep. The user in question in the first comment back just throwed a tantrum and then in the second comment accused me of the things stated above.--BabbaQ (talk) 17:10, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I just think it is weird that he can come to this conclusion, considering that he nominated an article about a boycott. And to make a connection between that comment being anti-semitic and me possibly being Turkish is just baffling. BabbaQ (talk) 17:13, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Indeed, its unfortunate RMS jumped to such a bad faith assumption and responded so aggressively, but I can see how your comment could be interpreted in the same way he did, even though that was not your intention. I'd just explain that to him, and move on. I'm not familiar with the subject, but there have been !votes that supported both your stance, and his, so I think it'd be best to just let the AFD play out as usual. Sergecross73   msg me  17:14, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * I could see that it could be interpreted as such had it been another kind of article, it makes me wonder if he actually read the article before placing the AfD tag. But the article was about a boycott, I can only assume bad faith from RMS side. With that said, I think it is a storm in a waterglass and will just move on. Regards,BabbaQ (talk) 17:17, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * "Storm in a waterglass" - I like that. That sounds about right. I do recommend giving him a brief FYI to him clarifying things though. Even if its a simple "No, my 'political boycott' comment was in reference to the subject, not you, RMS." It may help future clashes from happening at future AFDs. I was going to chime in myself, but...if he sees you went to consult an Admin on this, things...may get worse before they get better, if you get my drift... Sergecross73   msg me  17:44, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think you did just right by not contacting RMS. I left a short message at the AfD. He can react to it as he likes but it is my final comment about the matter. Thank you for your assistance. Regards,BabbaQ (talk) 17:48, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
 * No problem, anytime. I enjoy offering my assistance to people, my only requirement is that they don't get aggressive with me if they don't agree with my approach. (People can surely disagree, I just want them to look for assistance elsewhere if they're going to get mad. You've never actively shown any aggression towards me, and thus, I'm happy to help.) Sergecross73   msg me  18:04, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

A new user right for New Page Patrollers
Hi.

A new user group, New Page Reviewer, has been created in a move to greatly improve the standard of new page patrolling. The user right can be granted by any admin at PERM. It is highly recommended that admins look beyond the simple numerical threshold and satisfy themselves that the candidates have the required skills of communication and an advanced knowledge of notability and deletion. Admins are automatically included in this user right.

It is anticipated that this user right will significantly reduce the work load of admins who patrol the performance of the patrollers. However,due to the complexity of the rollout, some rights may have been accorded that may later need to be withdrawn, so some help will still be needed to some extent when discovering wrongly applied deletion tags or inappropriate pages that escape the attention of less experienced reviewers, and above all, hasty and bitey tagging for maintenance. User warnings are available here but very often a friendly custom message works best.

If you have any questions about this user right, don't hesitate to join us at WT:NPR. (Sent to all admins) .MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:47, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Saving Ogre (Tekken) article
Hi, admin, another big problem has emerged. As you know, I have created articles for many Tekken characters, and I must say, it wasn't that easy. During that time, I also learned how to upload pictures. But anyway, here's the link to the page of that guy who is giving me problems. The guy just started to delete all of the articles and merged them into List of Tekken characters. That is really pissing me off that I can't even describe to you. When he deleted Ogre's article, he said this - article mostly cruft and original research with no viable third-party reception. There's nothing wrong with the article - everything is written as it should be, and everything that I listed is true, all those lines were from official Tekken Wikias, and I didn't made anything out of my head. Same goes with reception lists. The guy is looking like a troll to me, but anyway, for the other articles, I don't care that much, but at least, save Ogre's article. It is after all, the first article that I made and it should stay, because once again, there's nothing wrong about it and there's no reason to delete it. As soon as you see this, and after I see your thoughts, I'll bring the article back. If anyone tries to delete it, I'll say that I have your permission to bring it/ keep it. Thanks. Disturbedasylum
 * Hey there. So, here's how its recommended you handle these things. I haven't read over the article, so I'm not saying it should or should not be deleted. I'm just speaking in general:


 * 1) The other editor is allowed to redirect your article with a valid rationale in the edit summary. I'm not saying they're right or wrong, merely that they can.
 * You, in turn, are allowed to undo their redirect. Usually, according to WP:BRD, they should not revert you a second time. However, I think they overlooked that because you didn't leave an edit summary when you reverted them. So, next time/going forward, be sure to leave an edit summary when you revert them. Just some sort of combination of "I disagree/I think its notable/I don't think it should be redirected/please discuss further on talk page" statement. They should comply with that.
 * 1) At that point, it usually goes 1 of 2 ways. Some drop it, because they don't want to get into a big argument over it. Others will start up a merge discussion on the talk page or send it to WP:AFD to have a deletion discussion. That's when you're going to want to be ready to present any and all third party sources that discuss the character in significant detail - to prove that it meets Wikipedia's general standard for something to have its own article. That'll be the make or break point for you, because if the general agreement of the discussions is to delete, you'll have to abide by that decision.


 * Does that make sense? Short version: They shouldn't generally be redirecting the article a second time, but they may start up a discussion about the article in question after that, and it'll be up to you (and anyone else) to defend it to keep it from being eliminated. Sergecross73   msg me  19:39, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice and for the heads up, admin. I just feel that it's not right to delete the articles just like, especially if a lot of effort (at least in my case) was put into it. And I don't see a single thing or reason for it to be removed, maybe the article isn't notable for them, but for me and for many others it is. I know that it would be too much for the other articles as well to be brought back, but at least, this one can/should stay. Keeping it won't hurt anyone that much. Disturbedasylum
 * I understand, a few months back, a "List of characters" article I have rewritten/maintained for years was redirected, and I wasn't very happy about that either. The best way to fight it though, is to always have a list of third party sources available that discuss the subject in detail. Providing that is always the best way to persuade people and win these sorts of arguments. A heads up: Sadly, arguments like "I worked hard on it" or "Its not hurting anyone" are usually ignored in these discussions. The "third party sources" approach really is the best argument to stick with. Sergecross73   msg me  20:31, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Alrighty then. I'm glad that this article can stay, but for real, everything that is written is truthful for the character, there's nothing wrong. I didn't made any of those words out of my head. Just because the character hasn't appeared in too many games (although Ogre had a cameo at one point or another in every Tekken game after Tekken 3, had a significant impact on the story and is one of the most iconic bosses of its franchise) that doesn't mean that their articles should be removed. The same goes for reception lists, too. I believe that you saw that, but if you didn't or if you haven't looked at the article as a whole, you can. I believe that all those sources are reliable, if that's one of the problems. Disturbedasylum
 * Yeah, the article doesn't seem to have issues with false information or bad sources in the reception section (except Dorkly, thats not considered a reliable source) but some editors disagree on whether or not appearing in "Top 10 Lists" is enough to build a Reception section around. Anyways, if it gets sent to AFD, let me know and I'll try to do some digging to see if there's any other sources that would help. Sergecross73   msg me  21:50, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

The issue here is not whether the article content is true or false, but rather the lack of notability and possible WP:OWN by its most prominent contributor, who additionally felt the need to hurl insults even though I've penned and revised multiple ably-sourced articles on lesser-known fighting game characters, but I digress. In fact, Ogre has been previously merged twice  because each time it's read like a Tekken wiki that is heavy on unsourced fancruft regarding the character's storyline and costume designs (and is it really important what he says prior to battle?), and this latest incarnation is no exception. Since the article was revived by Disturbedasylum in 2014, zero effort has been made to cite sources, save for the threadbare reception section that consists of the same old gaming top-ten lists found in nearly every VG character article — with half of the cites therein coming from GamesRadar and Complex alone — and don't help in establishing notability. Placing sixteenth in a top-20 Tekken character ranking doesn't really tell us anything about him. Calling him "iconic" is hyperbolic at best; he's made one selectable appearance in the main games and that was back in 1997, while he finished 47th in the 2012 Namco fan poll linked in the article. I performed searches on Ogre prior to the re-merge and they produced nothing. Heck, Disturbedasylum openly said that the article content was taken from Tekken wikias. And that's the problem right there. Wikias are not viable Wikipedia sources as they are fan-made and can be edited by anyone. sixty nine  • speak up •  07:05, 15 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, I'm well aware of all of that. My revert on you was not necessarily an endorsement of its existence - think of it more along the lines of how people do "procedural nominations" on behalf of editors at AFD for editors who dont know how to write up a nom. DisturbedAsylum requested guidance and assistance in how to hand situations such as this, and in explaining the WP:BRD process to him, I noticed that, in the technical sense, you'd hadn't followed it yourself, which is understandable considering no edit summary was given in the "revert" stage, but still, I was trying to teach him the correct process. While your argument is certainly plausible, as far as I could tell, despite the past merge's, there's never been an actual merger discussion or WP:AFD about him. As I outlined to him, if you wish to pursue this, that would be the next step. Sergecross73   msg me  16:57, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Actually, he made more than one selectable appearance: aside from Tekken 3, he is also selectable in TTT and TTT2, Tekken Card Tournament, Tekken Revolution (True Form, though he's not playable), Tekken 5 Arcade History and Devil Within Mode: (one selectable and one unselectable), Tekken Hybrid, Street Fighter X Tekken, Namco X Capcom (unplayable boss) and he appears as a customizable costume in Soul Calibur V. Plus in appears in one way or another (cameo) in every game after Tekken 3. Even though those lines/words were taken from Tekkenpedia and other cites regarding the video game characters, there's nothing wrong or false about them. Disturbedasylum
 * As I keep mentioning, these sorts of arguments aren't going to hold up if a merger/deletion discussion is started. You want to focus on third party (Not Namco/official site) reliable sources (not Wikias or websites that anyone can edit at any time). That's going to be the key to the fate of this article, not how many game's he's appeared in. Sergecross73   msg me  16:57, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Point taken, Serge, and before I even read your reply the lightbulb went on that opening a discussion first would've been more appropriate. It's that, as you mentioned, I've seen other VG editors forge ahead and merge a number of non-notable character articles in the past, so I've always believed that was the proper plan of action in regards to this issue. When Disturbedasylum reverted the changes I thought he was the one in the wrong mainly due to having no edit summary. I've been immersed in VG editing for the past couple years and have absorbed so many do's and dont's about the process that it can be hard to juggle at times, and for better or worse I've always been of the school of bold editing. Thanks for your reply and sorry for turning your page into a knock-down-drag-out. :) sixty nine   • speak up •  03:24, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
 * - To be clear, you were completely within your rights to revert the first time without prior discussions - that was fine - but once DisturbedAslylum challenged it, then that was when a discussion would be the next step, and even then, I can understand reverting a second time when the other person doesn't explain why their challenging your edit. Also, know that you might have walked into a war zone here - there's a lot of disagreements in WP:VG over the standards on whether or not video game characters have their own article. Some have lax standards, while others strict, and we seem to have a hard time drawing the line. So, right or wrong, that may be why you've run into some opposition on some of your Tekken character mergers. Anyways, no need to apologize, my talk page is always crazy for one reason or another, and I appreciate how understanding you've been. Sergecross73   msg me  04:12, 16 November 2016 (UTC)