User talk:Woovee

November 2011
Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. Before saving your changes to an article, please provide an edit summary, which you forgot to do before saving your recent edit to Goth subculture. Please note that I have reverted your changes as some of them appeared to be deleting content, which requires explanation. Thank you. -- Doniago (talk) 15:41, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

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Stop spamming NYKOP page!
It seems the vandal is you because you came on Not Your Kind of People page and added that terrible Clash Music review. I mean not just the rating but the content itself. Also it's very, very short. I can't call this a honest review, but a hateful and biased review.

Also you removed a 5 star review just to add that crappy review. That Clash Music review can be found through Metacritic link anyway.

I have a feeling that you wrote that review... Otherwise why you're so insistent? Deepblue1 (talk) 17:58, 1 June 2012 (UTC)


 * As I said before, you're the vandal because YOU try to insert your own terrible review.Deepblue1 (talk) 23:25, 1 June 2012 (UTC)


 * You started to get on my nerves. I will NOT tolerate your attempts to insert your shitty review. Move the issue on Talk Page of Not Your Kind of People and let's vote! Deepblue1 (talk) 10:09, 4 June 2012 (UTC)


 * See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Not_Your_Kind_of_People. You accuse me without evidences. Stop saying lies about me.Deepblue1 (talk) 13:26, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

September 2012
Please do not remove content or templates from pages on Wikipedia, as you did to Coexist (album), without giving a valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. Your content removal does not appear constructive and has been reverted. Please make use of the sandbox if you'd like to experiment with test edits. Thank you. Dan56 (talk) 18:17, 21 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Don't reintroduce your change to the article without explaining them elsewhere first. It saves a lot of reverting of mass changes. As Template:Album ratings shows, web publications are not italicized. Metacritic's score is already discussed at length in the leading prose of the section, so the template would be redundant. Your removal of the table because it's too much to you is not a reason to remove it. Like in GA articles such as Here I Stand (Usher album) and 8701, it's useful in presenting information too complex to be expressed in prose (WP:TABLE) Other table form information includes accolades for an album such as in Kid A. I'm trying to improve this article, so your preferential edits are getting a bit in the way. Dan56 (talk) 18:39, 21 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Also on the point of the ratings template, you did notice how I did not mention the rating given by the reviewers in prose? It will already be noted in the ratings template, so I avoided being redundant. The Metacritic field in the template is an optional parameter (Template:Album ratings) Dan56 (talk) 18:41, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Did you even bother looking at what I did in my previous edit? I didn't add or remove any reviews. I removed "However, This is PiL has also been met with mixed reviews" and "The album has also received negative reviews". It's completely unnecessary to say that. Look at any other wikipedia article about an album that has a metacritic score in the 60s and you'll see that they never mention that the album has also received negative and mixed reviews. They let the reviews speak for themselves. Also, stop with the "you're a Punk sockpuppet" bullshit. I'm not a sockpuppet and your baseless accusations are completely irrelevant to my edits of This is PiL. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vonran (talk • contribs) 17:50, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Reverting on behalf of others
So Valboo wrote it, then I copy-edited the text you're referring to at The Weeknd (with an edit summary). Then you reverted me, saying "This was a good job" and Consensus is "not for the only opponent in 9 months" (whatever the hell that means). Check my edit summary (also available at the article's history) and I explained why it wasnt in fact a "good job" entirely, so I copy-edited it. Stop reverting me please. I explained myself at the talk page, addressed any and every point you made, and if we both want to avoid WP:3RR we should talk it out. Dan56 (talk) 17:39, 21 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Unless you have a specific issue about my improvement that's violating any guideline, then dont imply some page ownership that I cant make constructive edits to this article, which I've mightily improved since when I first edited it. Dan56 (talk) 17:43, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

February 2013
Please refrain from deleting content you do not agree with, as you did here to The Weeknd. Disruptive genre-related edits made to suit your own point of view are considered disruptive. Thank you. Dan56 (talk) 01:56, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

File permission problem with File:Kraftwerkcoldwave.jpg
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File:Kraftwerkcoldwave.jpg listed for deletion
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January 2014
Although you mean well, I've again reverted your edits to Billboard Hot 100 and Alternative Songs. These additions are not worded very well and do not really improve the articles... in fact they are quite muddled and confusing. There's no need to focus on 1990's policies for the charts, nor add clipped screenshots from Google books, and the part about "three types of Hot 100" is inaccurate/doesn't make sense. The component charts are already mentioned in the main Hot 100 article, and they also have their own spin-off pages. If you're going to add large sections to these or change around the intro sections, please discuss on the Talk Page(s) first. Thanks! - eo (talk) 20:37, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Blur
While you're at it, you might want to check that article for close-paraphrases. See my sandbox. GabeMc (talk&#124;contribs)  19:30, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Blur (band): problems of neutrality
You helped this article to get GA last year where as there is a important problem of WP:NPOV concerning facts that are easy to check via the site Billboard.com. I explained the problem and proposed a solution on the talk of the article. This needs to be fixed quickly. Woovee (talk) 18:47, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll take a look.  SilkTork  ✔Tea time  01:48, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I've just looked, and it appears you wish to make an edit. Just go and do it. If there's a problem with it, someone will make an adjustment, or enter a discussion with you. Be bold! Please be bold - that's how we make progress. If we entered into a discussion and got agreement for every minor edit, then Wikipedia wouldn't be the success it is. It was because of the slowness of getting agreement for content on Nupedia that Wikipedia was created. "Wiki" means quick - its essence is that multiple users can directly edit text collaboratively and directly, rather than having long discussions to get agreement first. Do it the wiki way - WP:Be bold!  SilkTork  ✔Tea time  02:38, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I did several edits the last two weeks; the problem is they were quickly reverted and rejected by the same person who has been presenting the "song 2" single as "a hit" in the USA, where as 1) it was just a  "a radio hit on alternative modern rock radios" !! and 2) not a hit at all in terms of commercial success as "Song2" never cracked the Hot 100 that is the only Billboard chart that includes "units sold" and "singles sales". " Billboard modern rock tracks" indeed is a list that mentions only the 40 most-played songs on alternative rock radios which is a very special sub-format. More important, this billboard isn't based from "units sold and single sales" at all. Clearly, this article should have never been rated GA because it mis-interpreted sources, and presents facts in a fallacious way. It's clearly original research that presenting "Song2" as "a hit". As an adminisrator who passed this GA and who didn't see this problem because you assumed, sources had been used following the wiki guidelines of neutrality, sticktosource and nooriginalresearch, you were abused in a certain way too. As a reader who knew Blur's history, and their cult status in the USA, they just had a album certified gold in 1997, I was baffled by the presentation of "song2" as a hit. It is also perverse because european people don't know exactly what is the Billboard alternative songs, and what is the Hot 100 (which is the equivalent of the uk singles chart if you prefer). Thank you for replying so quickly. - Woovee (talk) 17:24, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Could you help me to help you by stating the situation in one or two sentences.  SilkTork  ✔Tea time  17:40, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
 * In the lead, it is said that "song 2" brought the band mainstream success in the states. This is not true: it was only the album that was certified gold in the USA, not that "song 2" single. Indeed, this single never entered the Hot 100 (the chart that include the sales): so how could it be presented as a hit. What is true is that the "song2" single was played a lot on alternative modern rock radios, it peaked at n°6 in the modern rock radios. so it was only a radio alternative rock radio. The use of the word "hit" is to me not appropriate. I would say that it had heavy rotation on alternative radios. Woovee (talk) 17:53, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

I looked at the history and now see the situation. I agree with you. I was about to make the change, but note that it has already been done. There are now three editors who agree that "hit" means a record in the Billboard 100. Any further problems, please give me a ping. It helps if you explain quickly and clearly what the situation is.  SilkTork  ✔Tea time  17:54, 9 January 2014 (UTC)


 * , has reverted most of Woovee's improvements with the assumption that what was there was accurate to the high-quality reliable sources, but much of it isn't. It can be difficult to improve an article when it has several watchers making sure that dubious content does not change. The problem is, Indopug didn't bother to actually check the sources before reverting. GabeMc  (talk&#124;contribs)  17:54, 9 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I see that at last, some people agree with the fact that there's a problem of neutrality on this article, huge to my point of view. Woovee (talk) 18:00, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

January 2014
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 * com/artist/292472/blur/chart?f=377 Billboard Alternative Songs] Billboard.com. Retrieved 9-1-2014
 * name="allmusic"> Song 2 | AllMusic It has been licensed worldwide on numerous occasions. Its first appearance came as the title

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 * *1996: Il Terzo Secolo (The Third Century) .  Feltrinelli, Italy. Essays on the USA

Blur "hit" dispute
I have merged the two suggested wordings. Please review to see if it is acceptable: Talk:Blur_(band).  SilkTork  ✔Tea time  09:34, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

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February 2014
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 * walesartsreview.org/elizabeth-fraser/ 'Elizabeth Fraser Live'] by Adrian Master, Welsh Art Review Hunter-

Thanks re: Fahey reviews
Thanks for taking the time to edit all those scaruffi reviews on the Fahey album pages. Airproofing (talk) 18:01, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Scaruffi URL
Hi, I don't think that the URL you are using works anymore, as the thread has been archived. I think this should work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Albums/Archive_46#Piero_Scaruffi_-_Final_Verdict_on_using_him_as_a_source_in_reviews &mdash; goethean 17:06, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Goth subculture
Hi Woovee, You stated that the Goth Bible is not (WP:NOTABILITY) notable enough. If you go to this Policy, you will see that "Notability guidelines do not apply to content within an article." WP:NNC says that "The criteria applied to article creation/retention are not the same as those applied to article content. The notability guidelines do not apply to article or list content (with the exception that some lists restrict inclusion to notable items or people). Content coverage within a given article or list (i.e., whether something is noteworthy enough to be mentioned in the article or list) is governed by the principle of due weight and other content policies." I would appreciate it if you would not delete content sourced to a published book on the topic.OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 20:28, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Hi Woovee, Could you send me the link to the Wikipedia policy against copying sentences from other WP articles? As I understand it, the requirement is that you acknowledge the source in your edit summary, which I did.


 * Here is the editing guideline from WP:CWW: "Wikipedia's licensing requires that attribution be given to all users involved in creating and altering the content of a page. Wikipedia's page history functionality lists all edits made and its users. It cannot, however, in itself determine where text originally came from. Because of this, copying content from another page within Wikipedia requires supplementary attribution to indicate it. At minimum, this means a link to the source page in an edit summary at the destination page—that is, the page into which the material is copied. It is good practice, especially if copying is extensive, to make a note in an edit summary at the source page as well. Content reusers should also consider leaving notes at the talk pages of both source and destination." I read CWW, and didn't find any discussion of copying being discouraged. If I missed the section, please point it out to me, thanks.

OnBeyondZebrax (talk) 22:09, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

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Nick Cave
As far as I can tell, in Rip it Up and Start Agan, Simon Reynolds only refers to TBP as "proto-goth" (along with Bauhaus and The Banshees), as in it influenced the scene that followed. At what point does he describe TBP's "highly gothic, challenging lyrics" (which you highlight before anything else, giving the reader the impression that the band's fame rests on its literary qualities and not its sound, image, live shows...), or its "violent live sound influenced by punk rock and blues" (what does "live sound" even mean here? And is it not redundant to say that a post-punk band is influenced by punk rock?) The "Prince of Darkness" name occurs again and again in reviews and interviews, and packs a lot more punch than "the grand lord of gothic lushness". There is no doubt that elements of Cave's music have been described as gothic, and that he has influenced bands associated with the goth rock genre, but I think it's misleading to lump him into some kind of scene, which is what you appear to be doing. I suggest you read Kicking Against the Pricks if you haven't already. It's clear that Cave and the other BP members detested the goth scene and wrote "Release the Bats" as a parody of its followers. I hope we can reach some kind of consensus here. - HappyWaldo (talk) 14:36, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
 * TBP is first and foremost a post-punk band; proto-goth doesn't adequately sum up the band's output/legacy. How about this: "Prior to this, he fronted The Birthday Party, one of the most notorious and influential post-punk bands of the 1980s. ... Referred to as rock music's "Prince of Darkness", Cave's output is generally characterised by emotional intensity, a wide variety of influences, and lyrical obsessions with death, religion, love and violence.[3] NME described him as "the grand lord of gothic lushness"." - HappyWaldo (talk) 15:52, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
 * TBP was influential on the gothic rock genre - and many other (sub)genres. It's arguable that they influenced noise rock as much as gothic rock, maybe more so. There's a whole movement of American noise rock bands who aped TBP. Instead of singling out any area of influence, it's better to just say they were one of the most influential post-punk bands. - HappyWaldo (talk) 23:19, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
 * "You have to include the gothic adjective in the description of TBP" This is the lead for the Nick Cave article, not TBP. If you're going to emphasise the gothic connection then it opens the door to a variety of other labels bestowed upon them by critics over the years, from blues punk to aforementioned noise rock. Those two would be more legitimate given they have Wikipedia articles. Keep it simple and stick to the all-encompassing post-punk. I have agreed to the NME quote. - HappyWaldo (talk) 23:54, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I made the changes. Glad we had this discussion. - HappyWaldo (talk) 14:06, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Talkback
De728631 (talk) 17:53, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

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A question about how a song must be credited
Hello SilkTork,

As you are an administrator and you deal with articles about music, I wanted to ask you how a song has to be credited if the artist is known under a pseudonym. Let's take as instances songs by Dylan or Prince or Bowie: do they have to be credited as "Bob Dylan", "Prince", "David Bowie" or as "BoB Dylan|Robert Allen Zimmerman", "Prince (musician)|Roger Nelson", "David Bowie|David Robert Jones". Thanks. Woovee (talk) 23:28, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
 * If an artist is widely known under a pseudonym, their birth name would be mentioned in the main article on that person as that is part of the scope of that article, and is encyclopedic. In articles on that artists' work, we would tend to only use the pseudonym by which they are known, as their birth name would be out of scope for that article as the article would only be on the song itself, not on the history of the artist. If an artist uses an irregular pseudonym for a particular song or album, then we would give both the irregular pseudonym and the name by which they are better known, which may in itself be a pseudonym. See Don't Go Breaking My Heart. I hope that helps.  SilkTork  ✔Tea time  07:08, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

ArbCom elections are now open!
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Looking forward to working with you
Hey Woovie, I enjoyed getting a chance get to meet you the other day--thanks for being so understanding. I can see that you are interested in music, so I am looking forward to working with you on many projects in the future. Garagepunk66 (talk) 09:36, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

 * , thank you very much. I used to be more prolific. I still keep on adding content on articles when I have time. Woovee (talk) 19:10, 7 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Well, just some tokens of my appreciation. Garagepunk66 (talk) 19:14, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Hello! There is a DR/N request you may have interest in.
This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding a content dispute discussion you may have participated in. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution. Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! NewYorkActuary (talk) 20:07, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Reference errors on 15 August
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RfC
Thanks for posing the question. I fixed it so it is now a Request for Comments. I added your signature to the question as that is what is required. Karst (talk) 15:00, 14 January 2017 (UTC) I thought to ask it at wikiproject alternative, as it doesn't only concern this article. I found a lot of sources for this legacy section a couple of years ago. Woovee (talk) 17:03, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Excellent idea. Please proceed. Karst (talk) 17:05, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

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ANI
There is a ANI here about my edits on Siouxsie related articles that may interest you. thanks for reading. Carliertwo (talk) 05:42, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Re:Depeche Mode
I've been getting mixed messages. For the longest time, I thought we were supposed to do like you said and only included studio albums in the infoboxes for studio album articles and tried implementing that policy on the My Chemical Romance articles but someone changed it back. See here, here, here, and here. There's more than those four but I just wanted to show you why I applied that to the Depeche Mode chain, even though as I said it was my understanding we were only supposed to do studio albums like you said. Shaneymike (talk) 16:14, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
 * We don't use other articles as instances to follow. Had Black Celebration been released under another title and with another tracklisting in the US for instance, it would have been relevant to mention it. But including live albums, compilations, remixes cds is a no-no. Woovee (talk) 00:06, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

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August 2017
Hello, I'm Robvanvee. I noticed that you recently removed content from Wish (The Cure album) without adequately explaining why. In the future, it would be helpful to others if you described your changes to Wikipedia with an accurate edit summary. If this was a mistake, don't worry; the removed content has been restored. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks.  Rob van  vee  15:11, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Using a tool is such a plague on wikipedia because it makes longtime users waste a lot of time. Had you read the edits, you would have realized that these genres have been established by music historians for these albums for a long long time. Another point, one doesn't put any source in the infobox because the information doesn't simply belong there Woovee (talk) 17:21, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

Hippopotamus (album) has been nominated for Did You Know
Hiya Woovee, I was a little puzzled by this edit and the concerns you expressed in the edit summary.

Diffuser.fm is part of Townsquare Media's Loudwire Network. The site has mentions in sources like the BBC, Rolling Stone, American Songwriter, etc. and currently has 170 cites in Wikipedia.

The review was clearly identified as an album review in the headline. It described songs that have not appeared as singles (in the penultimate paragraph). The date didn't faze me; several of the reviews mentioned on Metacritic are dated mid-August as well (Record Collector was first, 18 August). Journos clearly got advance copies.

As for diffuser.fm not being mentioned on Metacritic, I don't know what criteria Metacritic uses. But the Times review for example isn't mentioned there either, nor the one in the Financial Times and several other papers. Best, --Andreas JN 466 15:37, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * , you point out a few contradictions. I don't know why The Times and the Financial Times are not referenced on Metacritic. Maybe it is because the UK Times' group doesn't allow it. Anyway, Diffuser.fm is not well famous to my opinion: I don't rate it as a good source like the ones I've added. In fact, I don't remember seeing it ever including in the rating infobox/reception section of a music GA/FA. Diffuser.fm's looks like a summary of other reviews, it is my view. There are plenty of other reviews available for this album, I've just added another one. Woovee (talk) 23:44, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree the sources you added are more important, and it's not like we're short of reviews. Still, I thought I'd mention it. The DYK reviewer (I'm happy to share DYK credit as you added some key sources) is asking for a citation for the track listing; any suggestions? --Andreas JN 466 11:32, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Not really, I've never seen a citation for a tracklisting, in an article about an album. One can add the BMG catalogue numbers for the standard edition and the Japanese edition, eventually. Woovee (talk) 13:35, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

DYK for Hippopotamus (album)
Alex ShihTalk 12:02, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

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edit war
thanks for the message. i didn't mean to edit war or anything. thanks for the message though. I'll do my best to never do what i did again. Statik N (talk) 00:55, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

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T.Rex (band) RfC on Disputed Reformations section
Hi

This is to notify you that there is a Request for Comment discussion on the talkpage for the article T.Rex (band) in which you and your recent edits to the article (specifically those in which the above-named section was deleted) are cited. As you were tagged in the discussion, you should have received a notification about this, however I notice that you have made further edits to the article while not participating in the discussion. In case your notification has failed to arrive, here is a link: Talk:T. Rex (band). I should advise you to participate in the RfC debate if you want your views on the subject to count towards the consensus on the subject on Wikipedia. 62.190.148.115 (talk) 16:07, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Dispute Resolution
As the RfC seems to have gone quiet and since you seem to be expanding the scope of this (viz deleting the details of band members' deaths) I have sought an alternative route. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Talk:T._Rex_(band)#RfC_on_Disputed_Reformations_section

62.190.148.115 (talk) 17:06, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Joy Division
"Gothic rock" is listed in the infobox under "genre". What's your take on this? -- Doctorx0079 (talk) 19:53, 17 November 2019 (UTC)

Be well
, thank you so much for this kind message :) Have a WikiChristmas and a PediaNewYear too. Woovee (talk) 22:59, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Goth subculture third opinion
Hi, as we both appear unflinching on your views about the discussion at Talk:Goth subculture, I think it would be a good idea to seek a third opinion. I'm supposed to notify you before I request one to make sure you're alright with it, so I hope you're in support as I believe it would help to reach a consensus. Issan Sumisu (talk) 16:24, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi, I have contacted a longtime wikipedia member to help finding a compromise. Woovee (talk) 17:54, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
 * As SilkTork only gave their opinion about the RSs, I agree to demand a third opinion to discuss some details as there are quite a few. Creating a section about the the nightclubs, the keyspaces that were important in the emergence of the goth subculture in the 1980s, would be the right thing to do in order to reach a compromise quickly. Woovee (talk) 21:49, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Alright, feel free to go ahead. Issan Sumisu (talk) 12:00, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

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Music U.K. (magazine) moved to draftspace
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T.Rex article/ 20th Century Boy
You're welcome re the thank - incidentally I have noticed a similar claim re. the end of Bowie's Glam run - the Rebel Rebel page claimed that it was Bowie's last glam anthem, even though the next Bowie single, the Diamond Dogs title track, is also very much a Glam anthem. I tagged the claim for CN.Romomusicfan (talk) 01:37, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

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Your draft article, Draft:Music U.K. (magazine)


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File:Marc Bolan Truck Off 1974 by Ian Dickson.jpg
That the file has been on Commons for months does not mean it's acceptable to use here. Commons is not en.wikipedia. We are not responsible for their copyright errors, nor do we have to incorporate them here. Further, Commons is badly backlogged on all sorts of administrator requests. It is nearly a failed project at this point. We can not accept copyrighted, non-free materials on this project unless used under the non-free content policy, which this would not qualify for since we have a perfectly good image of him in concert in 1973 at File:Marc Bolan In Concert 1973.jpg. There is no reason to include the image you want to include. I am re-removing it. Please stop adding it. If you have questions, certainly ask me. I'll be happy to help. Attempting to edit war a copyright violating image onto the article is not the way forward. Thanks, --Hammersoft (talk) 02:54, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

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Bloodflowers
Hello Woovee. You've said that Robert Smith has changed his mind often on his favourite Cure album. You're probably more well-read on the Cure than me so could you please, if possible, find an instance that's later to my source in which he explicitly identifies something other than Bloodflowers as his favourite Cure record (I've been unable to with a cursory google search)? While it's not unnusual for musical artists to cite their latest album at the time as being their favourite, the source I used was last updated in 2008 after 4:13 Dream had been released, and he does not acknowledge either that nor 2004's self-titled as being his favourite, and instead explicitly cites Bloodflowers. If he had cited the 2008 album as his favourite, it would be reasonable for us to assume that in, the absence of any other later quotation, that his favourite would change with each new subsequent album, but since he didn't cite his newest at that time as his favourite, unless we can find him changing his mind in a later interview, I think it is reasonable to the Bloodflowers quote there. Cheers. LaunchOctopus (talk) 23:52, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

"Northern England" in Goth Subculture
Hi, I saw we got in a bit of a disagreement on Goth Subculture, and I want to clarify why I support this minor change. The change we were discussing makes the sentence mean completely different things: "The F Club night in Leeds... became instrumental to the development of the goth subculture in North England in the 1980s" means it was only instrumental to goth in the north, not anywhere else; "The F Club night in Leeds in northern England... became instrumental to the development of the goth subculture in the 1980s" is saying where Leeds is, like you said that sentence was supposed to mean. If it is, as you said, supposed to clarify where Leeds is, it should be the second option, because the first option doesn't say what you said it was supposed to mean. Also, none of the sources cited mention it being influential to goth specifically in the north, they all talk about it influencing the subculture as a whole. So, your change makes it inaccurate and so doesn't fit WP:STICKTOTHESOURCES.

I also honestly have no idea why you cited WP:POINTY, because I'm not arguing against any policy? I'm trying to make fit better with what the sources say, which would put it better in line with policies. Thanks, no bad blood. Issan Sumisu (talk) 09:35, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

January 2022
Your recent editing history at Goth subculture shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See the bold, revert, discuss cycle for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

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Dispute resolution re. T.Rex (band)
A thread has been set up about this on the Dispute Resolution page. Romomusicfan (talk) 08:26, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Dispute Resolution Noticeboard conclusion
Hi Woovee. (Cc From T.Rex article talk page)

In your absence the DRN thread has concluded with consensus between Netherzone and myself under moderator guidance to include a short paragraph about the "reunion" bands. As per the duscussion, should you disagree with our connsensus about - or should you choose to unilaterately revert or significantly modify - the text as we have agreed it, we will proceed to a Request For Comment discussion board topic about this article.

The thread is currently located at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#T.Rex_(band). I will post a reply with an updated URL once the discussion is archived.
 * EDIT: Here is the updated URL for the archived thread: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_227#T.Rex_(band). Romomusicfan (talk) 21:43, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Here is a copy of the thread, with only formatting modifications with regard to subheader heirarchy:

T.Rex (band)
Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview

Circa 2019 Woovee deleted sections relating to T.Rex reuinion projects Mickey Finn's T-Rex and X-T. Rex (formerly Bill Legend's T. Rex) and input a statement in the article that "As Bolan had been the only constant member of T. Rex and also the only composer and writer, his death ultimately ended the band." It was Woovee's stated view that the possible validity of such reunion bands was a fringe/minority viewpoint underserving of coverage. I tagged Woovee's statement for CN and recently added a neutrality disputed tag and input an IMHO even-handedly worded reason in both tags relating to the controversies relating to such projects. Woovee deleted the tags, stating that the reasoning given amounted to "introducing opinions" into the article in contravention of WP:NOT and insinuating that I must be motivated by somehow being related to the musicians involved (I am not!)

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:T. Rex (band) Talk:T. Rex (band)

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Immediate resolution is required about the validity of my tags of Woovee's statement including the Reason given. In the long term, resolution is required about whether the subject of these reunion bands should be covered in the T.Rex article or not.

Summary of dispute by Woovee
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Netherzone
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. The timing of this is not great for me as I am travelling and in the middle of a vacation, and it is difficult (and unpleasant) for me to concentrate on a dispute at this time. I thought we cleared up this matter some time ago, and was surprised it has resurfaced. Briefly, my position is that the band did not "ultimately end" when Marc Bolan died. That the opinion of the writer Mark Paytress, who alegedly made that statement, does not make it "true" as various other band members went on to develop at least two tribute/spinoff bands, X-T.Rex and Mickey Finn's T-Rex. I believe that the position of the editor who opened this discussion is correct the article should not make the claim that the band ultimately ended when Mark Bolan died, or that both POVs (the band ended/the band did not end) should be included and each be reliably sourced (with page numbers if applicable). Note: I re-read the DRN rules and have modified the sentence above so as to comment solely on content, and not on contributors. Netherzone (talk) 04:13, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm not even sure Paytress made such a statement, particularly in his second Bolan book as briefly cited. (If a page number and quote can be provided for authentication, that would be fair enough.) Romomusicfan (talk) 12:30, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

I added the word "alegedly" to my statement above because it is not verifiable that Paytress actually made that claim at all; an extensive search of the book does not verify it. Even if it were found that Paytress made that statement, that is only one point of view. Would that not give undue weight to a single source? NPOV states that "neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources". Billboard magazine clearly states: "But in 1997, after band members received a rapturous reception at a public performance to commemorate Bolan’s 1977 death, the group reformed with Finn, original band member Paul Fenton, and several new musicians. They performed all over Europe and were particularly popular in Germany. The group recorded an album, “Renaissance,” in 2000." If we are to achieve balance, then both viewpoints should be included in the article, per "when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance." Netherzone (talk) 01:38, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

T.Rex (band) discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
 * Volunteer Note - There are two areas that need to be dealt with. The recent discussion has not been continuing long enough.  So resume discussion at the article talk page.  The filing party has not notified the other editors.  Please notify them on their user talk pages.  I am neither opening nor closing this case at this time.  Try to discuss the issue for at least 24 hours with at least two more posts from each editor.  Robert McClenon (talk) 04:17, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, I thought it automatically notified the parties concerned. I have already notified, I shall notify  also.Romomusicfan (talk) 08:22, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Have left a note on 's talk page.Romomusicfan (talk) 08:27, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Have allowed time for a response by . There has been none.  Have made the first of my two posts as requested by .  If there is no response from  either there or here, such that this thread ends up being closed or threatened with closure due to inacticvity (or whatever similar reason) I feel I would be well within my rights to revert 's last reversion and reinstate the CN and Neutrality notes complete with reason tags.  I don't want a revert war but all this silence could frankly be interpreted as  having dropped any disagreement with my reasoning! Romomusicfan (talk) 17:37, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Statement one-half by moderator (T. Rex)
The editors should read the usual rules, and should each make a statement saying that they agree to moderated discussion subject to the usual rules. If there is agreement for moderated discussion, we will proceed with moderated discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:59, 9 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Have done so below. Do Woovee and myself still need to get our remaining posts (my second and both of Woovee's) done on the talk page as requested by yourself above, or is that abandoned now? Romomusicfan (talk) 08:42, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

Statement one-half by editors (T. Rex)
I agree to moderated discussion subject to the usual rules.Romomusicfan (talk) 08:39, 9 January 2023 (UTC)

First statement by moderator (T Rex)
I am opening this case for moderated discussion. Please read the rules again. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Discuss the article here rather than on the article talk page, and do not edit the article.

I am asking each editor to state, in one paragraph, what they want changed in the article, or what they want left the same that someone else wants changed. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:47, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

First statements by editors (T Rex)
Ideally I would like the "ultimately ended the band" sentence either taken out or replaced with something less definite along the lines of the band "deactivating" at the point of Bolan's death. Also a brief section (no more than a quick paragraph) on the subject of the two "revival" bands such as existed on the article prior to Woovee's 2018/2019 edits - probably in more concise form than the old version - should be input. As a compromise I would accept the existing wording with the CN and Neutrality tags with the Reason notes re. the "revival" bands - such as it was when I added the Reason notes - to be left up long term.Romomusicfan (talk) 09:28, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I would like to see the following three changes made: 1)	Remove this sentence until or unless page numbers can be found in the Mark Paytress book for verification: “As Bolan had been the only constant member of T. Rex and also the only composer and writer, his death ultimately ended the band.” As it stands, the latter part of the sentence after the comma cannot be verified through an online search, and thus may be original research or not a neutral point of view. 2)	If a page number is found, the sentence may stand as written but should be balanced with another POV to achieve a neutral point of view WP:NPOV. I suggest the following: “As Bolan had been the only constant member of T. Rex and also the only composer and writer, music critic Mark Paytress states that Bolan’s death ended the band. However Billboard magazine states that “the group reformed with Finn, original band member Paul Fenton, and several new musicians. They performed all over Europe and were particularly popular in Germany. The group recorded an album, “Renaissance,” in 2000." 3)	Reinstate the former section on the two “revival bands” as seen here:  and improve the referencing such that each claim has a citation to a reliable source. Netherzone (talk) 01:14, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator (T. Rex)
Two editors have made statements as to what should be changed, and there seem to be two or so matters of agreement. Is there agreement to remove the sentence that ends in "ultimately ended the band"? Is there agreement to reinsert the section on revival bands?

Does each editor have any other comments on the other suggestions? Does either editor have any specific other ideas for improvements to the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:17, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Second statements by editors (T. Rex)
I would say that there is broad agreement between we two editors who have so far participated. (I am striving to make this point in a manner compliant with number 3 of the Rules.) However, we do both come from the same side of the discussion, so perhaps that is unsurprising. I would advocate turning the "ultimately ended" statement into a line saying the band disbanded rather than simply deleting the sentence The remainder of that paragraph is a very good section about the post band careers of T.Rex sidemen 1967-1973 and should be kept unchanged and unaffected by this edit. I would suggest that a second paragraph then be added to this section condensing the old Attempts At Reforming section down to bare bones. Romomusicfan (talk) 21:46, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

I agree 100% with 's statement and suggestions above. Netherzone (talk) 23:27, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator (T. Rex)
Three editors are listed as participating in this discussion. Two of the editors are mostly in agreement, and one has not edited in ten days. I am putting moderated discussion on hold for maybe a week, during which time the two editors may edit the article and may discuss their edits either here or on the article talk page. If the other editor returns and disagrees with their edits, moderated discussion can be reopened. Otherwise moderated discussion can be closed. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:06, 15 January 2023 (UTC)


 * If moderated discussion is closed and subsequently the other editor returns and the dispute resumes, what recourses will we then have? Romomusicfan (talk) 21:37, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Third statements by editors (T. Rex)
Have made the edits as requested above by the moderator.Romomusicfan (talk) 19:54, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Fourth statement by moderator (T. Rex)
If the other editor who has not edited in two weeks, with whom there were disagreements, returns and reverts the edits, or disagrees with them, a Request for Comments is probably the best approach. An RFC is often the best way of dealing with an editor who appears to be in a minority or editing against consensus, because it establishes a binding consensus.

At this point, there has been normal editing of the article for four days. I will close the moderated discussion in between one and three more days. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:22, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Back-and-forth discussion (T Rex)
Romomusicfan (talk) 08:44, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

CS1 error on Goth subculture
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Chronological order on post-punk
Hi Woovee, I'm just informing you that I reverted this edit of your's from last week because it interferes with MOS:CHRONOLOGICAL and instated incorrect grammar through capitalising non-proper nouns. Your summary argued for the edit claiming WP:OR, by saying artist before 1977 weren't post-punk, however the article already states that, it was not instated in the edit you reverted. Seeing as your problem is with the inclusion of artists like Suicide and Television being called post-punk, then your issue is with the contents of that section and you should delete those or move them to a "precursors" section, not make the article non-chronological. I hope this finds you well and you have a good day. Issan Sumisu (talk) 12:47, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

March 2024
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