Talk:Goth subculture

January 2020: F Club and Le Phonographique
This edit by doesn't work because wikipedia uses the wp:original research /  wp:synthesis rules. An encyclopedia can not include a source lacking of notoriety and expertise, which advances facts taken from a blog by fan as it is written at page 46. Further in the book, it is also said at page 47 that F Club was a place where punk gigs took place, seminal late 70s punk gigs.

This other edit doesn't work either due to wp:synthesis and wp:undue. This source is just a news item, it is a poor source for an encyclopedia and it is also advanced that this club used to attract punks, goths, rockers and other fans of alternative music, so not only goths wp:synthesis / wp:original research.

This retrospective source could be used in another section about lifestyle of goths but it doesn't fit in a section mainly about the early bands of this scene. This source is problematic too because the goth tag didn't exist in 1981, the goth tag surfaced a couple of years later in the media. wp:undue. It is also said in the source that this place opened in 1981, whereas Issan Sumisu edited "that same year" next to 1979. This "led to the creation of both the snakebite and the "two steps forward, two steps back" dance" is wp:original research because the source only advanced that this place "led to and popularised the ‘two steps forward, two steps back’ style of goth dancing", so not to the creation. Woovee (talk) 23:22, 21 December 2019 (UTC)


 * None of the claims of OR, SYNTH or UNDUE that you stated fit with what's described on their respective pages. If you look into the author Karl Spracklen, who was the writer of The Evolution of Goth Culture: The Origins and Deeds of the New Goths, which was one of the sources I cited: you'll find he has PHDs in culture, leisure and music and is a respected lecturer and professor in those areas, and his other work on Goth (https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=karl+spracklen+goth&btnG=) has been well cited in scholarly articles on the topic, including this book in particular being cited as a reference in The Use and Abuse of Music: Criminal Records by E. Peters. This puts it perfectly in line with WP:RS under Scholarship. The blog post quoted is only the minority of what is stated and is used as a supporting extract, which is common in scholarly articles. And the significance of the club is mentioned in the prose, not the supporting extract anyway: where "The Sisters of Mercy and goth emerged as if by magic"; "where goth rock was born in the form it is now"; "Andrew Eldritch had met Gary Marx, the other co-founder of the band, at the F-Club"; "Young people in Yorkshire... started to identify as goths to distinguish themselves."


 * The article by Dazed cites the Phono as a goth club (the first in fact), calling it this can not be WP:undue as it is well cited as such as: see https://www.leeds-live.co.uk/best-in-leeds/gigs-clubs/another-22-closed-leeds-clubs-14961458 which is published through Reach plc, which according to WP:RS makes it reliable as it is a well-established publication, the article is not an opinion piece and is not included in the list of unreliable publications; Goth: Undead Subculture which is reliable as it was published through Duke University; and Ripped, torn and cut: Pop, politics and punk fanzines from 1976 which is reliable as it was published by Manchester University. If anything, saying it is not a goth club is wp:synth and wp:undue as that would be conflating sources on the origin of the term with sources that cite it as one. Within the article it says the Phono had " a pillar in the middle of its dance floor — led to and popularised the ‘two steps forward, two steps back’ style of goth dancing", it does not mean just popularisation as you cited, because it also says "led to", as in the dance was created due to the pillar, and was also popularised by the club, which is emphasised in the next sentence when it says "the invention of the dance is emblematic of the scene". This is also said in Encyclopedia Gothica by Liisa Ladouceur, which is reliable because the author is a well-established journalist and is also a lecturer (meaning she is respected by the academic community putting her in line with wp:RS under Scholarship). And the sentence on the snakebite says "snakebite — which would become the goth ‘drink of choice’ — was first drunk out of thrift". It does not says "first drunk by those at the club out of thrift", it says it was "first drunk out of thrift", after mentioning in the same sentence a dance that was invited there, which very clearly means that they are saying the drink was invented there. The article also does not say the Phono was opened in 1981, the only times that year is mentioned within the article is in reference to Peter Sutcliffe's arrest, which is why I also cited the Yorkshire Evening Post source which says it opened in 1979. That source fits WP:RS as it is published through Johnston Press, a high-profile publisher, the article is not an opinion piece and it not listened in the unreliable publications list.


 * Other places that talk about the F Club and the Phono's impact on the goth subculture can be seen in https://thequietus.com/articles/21215-sisters-of-mercy-leeds-andrew-eldritch-interview, and the BBC's 1984 documentary Northern Lights. Issan Sumisu (talk) 07:58, 22 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Claiming that this club was already goth in 1977 can't stand, and an article in an encyclopedia like wiki, respects chronology. The "goth" tag first appeared in the media around 1984, two years after the opening of the Batcave. Your edits don't follow the wp:STICKTOTHESOURCE rule too.
 * It would be better to create a new section about clubbing in other big cities in the Uk. But talking about the clubs in Leeds in the "Origins and development" section is wp:undue as it can't be as important as the emergence of dark post-punk artists that paved the way for goth bands that first entered in the charts in 1983.
 * A blog is also a wp:self-published source, it is not considered a reliable source. And an article on wiki can't include a book naming a blog as one of its sources: we are trying to build an encyclopedia that is reliable, this means avoiding using sources that don't entirely respond to our criterias. Woovee (talk) 00:04, 23 December 2019 (UTC)


 * No source calls the F Club a goth club, because it wasn't, and I'm not trying to state that. But, there is a lot of reliable source coverage saying goth would not have existed without it. Saying "goth" was coined in 1984 also isn't sticking to the sources, because the Dazed article gives an instance of it being used to describe the subculture in '83 and Spracklen's book gives instances of it being used as far back as '78. The Phono however, is well cited as being a goth club, and because of this, not including it is in clear disregard of wp:STTS.
 * Also, none of the information included was cited from the blog extract in the book, it was from the writer, who is a reliable source as I previously explained. It doesn't fit wp:sp in any way, because it's citing the book's prose not the supporting extract. In fact, if you look at WP:VSP it actually says "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert", and as we've already established: Spracklen is an established expert. Issan Sumisu (talk) 10:19, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Claiming that "goth would not have existed without" the F Club" doesn't stand. The Dazed article is not signed by a music historian as famous as Mick Mercer or Simon Reynolds.
 * Spracklen is a teacher at an university and publishes, but if he doesn't cite reliable sources in a book, his work is not reliable for an encyclopedia. If he was a musical expert recognized as such, he would be cited in bibliographies by Mick Mercer, Simon Reynolds and famous music authors / journalists/ music magazines / music websites such as The Quietus or Pitchfork.
 * Spracklen's book gives instances of it being used as far back as '78. This is why this author can not be used as a source in an encyclopedia: the"goth" tag didn't exist in any music paper in 1978.
 * Historically, the Gothic (adjective) was used for several dark post-punk bands in the press in the late 1970s. Then the gothic rock (label) was used to describe some bands of the early 1980s, in fact as soon as in 1980. And finally, the Goth (tag) first surfaced in press articles after the opening of the Batcave to describe both the audience at the club and the concerts of those bands, and the music too. Woovee (talk) 11:04, 23 December 2019 (UTC)


 * I already brought up and gave proof that Spracklan has been cited frequently by academics, in this discussion and gave a myriad of proof as to why he's a reliable source according to Wikipedia. Saying the term didn't exist in 1978 is wp:originalresearch because there is reliable source coverage saying it was, and that can't be used to disregard a source's legitimacy. And, a writer's notability has nothing to do with how reliable they are, as (again) I've already stated Dazed fits perfectly into wp:rs. Issan Sumisu (talk) 11:25, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
 * If a contemporary article published in 1978 cited as a source in Spracklan's book, shows that the Goth (label) was used as far back as '78, then it would be good to copy/paste the part mentioning it in the book, at this talk page.  Woovee (talk) 16:51, 23 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Page 42 says "The Banshees were labeled 'gothic' almost from the start. A July 1978 review of a Banshees gig unequivocally considers the band gothic", which cites an article by Nick Kent in NME as a source. Issan Sumisu (talk) 19:12, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Which leads to this article, this NME live review by Nick Kent was added by me in 2014, meaning that this "teacher at Leeds' university" who did his book last year in 2018 probably based his work on this wikipedia article. And this author did bad wp:synthesis as never Nick Kent/ the NME clearly considered the Banshees as gothic rock in 1978. Nick Kent only said: "parallels and comparisons can now be drawn with gothic rock architects like the Doors", he wrote that the Doors were gothic rock architects but not that the Banshees were gothic rock. Some people don't see the difference. so once again, I copy / paste this: the Goth (tag) first surfaced in press articles after the opening of the Batcave (July 1982) to describe both the audience at the club and the concerts of those bands. Spracklan lazily cites another author called Carpenter at his page 42. This isn't serious. Spracklan didn't even try to trace the NME review and read it by myself. The number of times graduates at university say inacurrate and short cuts in their work, is baffling. I asked a quote citing the goth tag and a source citing gothic rock label was addressed instead. Is there a relative of Spracklan from Leeds university editing at this article, or are they a native of Leeds, inclined to promote Leeds in this article ? Woovee (talk) 00:57, 24 December 2019 (UTC)


 * I am neither of those, and it's frankly ludicrous that you'd make up conflict of interest allegations against me just because I've actually done my research and have provided nine sources so far to prove that. I had no idea about the city's goth scene at all until I started reading books on the topic and realised it came up time and time again. If there's the quote you just said from the article on this page, how could he have based it off of Wikipedia when Wikipedia doesn't say the same information? It's clear from the segment of the book that it is one interpretation of the source material, possibly not the intended one, but reliability can't be assessed on alternate interpretations, as according to wp:or "Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources. All analyses and interpretive or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary or tertiary source". Sprecklan in this case is a tertiary source as he cited a book citing the article, making this interpretation fully reliable by Wikipedia's standards. Also, why do you put quotation marks around "teacher at Leeds' university", as I never said that (so it can't be a quote from me) and he doesn't teach at Leeds University, he teaches at Leeds Beckett University, which are two entirely different schools. It implies that you're questioning his status as a teacher, however he does teach and even if he didn't, his three PHDs on subjects applicable to this topic add more legitimacy to his reliability than him being a lecturer does. Issan Sumisu (talk) 09:11, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Secondary or tertiary sources are certainly needed on domains where there isn't a lot of documentation available, but it is not the case at all for this subculture and music genre. There are plenty of articles and good books available released worldwide by famous music historians/music journalists. You initially wrote in your first reply that this teacher called Sprecklan who cited Carpenter's book citing the article, was In fact, more reliable than the original article. That is not true here as I explained in my previous reply that the excerpt of Carpenter's book chosen by Sprecklan is a short cut. I understand that you desesperately want to include this fresh University source from 2018 which is a thesis by a teacher in University. Whether he had three PHDs is not the point. What matters is if a teacher like this one is stated by someone like Simon Reynolds or Mick Mercer in bibliographies. Woovee (talk) 18:43, 26 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Those are just two authors, why do you keep linking it back to them in particular, when I've already provided proof of more writers citing his work in bibliographies? The Google Scholar link I cited early on in this discussion shows his work being included in bibliographies for Duncan Light from Bournemouth University, Robert A Stebbins of University of Calgary, Justin Harmon of University of North Carolina, Tony Blackshaw of Sheffield Hallan University, Alexander Fredorico of Monash University, David Scott of Texas A&M University and Eleanor Peters of Edge Hill University, as just a few examples. According to wp:rs, that makes him very reliable. Issan Sumisu (talk) 19:20, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

I've taken a look at the first edit mentioned by Woovee, and while following Woovee's concerns, it does appear that this edit is acceptable because there are other sources which also mention or indicate that the F Club was an early club associated with what would become goth, such as The Quietus:  and Goths: A Guide to an American Subculture: A Guide to an American Subculture By Micah Issitt:. And the source itself, The Evolution of Goth Culture: The Origins and Deeds of the New Goths, is acceptable as it is published by Emerald Group Publishing, a notable academic publisher. While it is appropriate to be concerned that a source isn't mirroring Wikipedia, I'm not seeing that this source has done that for some of the reasons outlined by.

I'm not so certain about the second edit, as that contains the statement "led to the creation of [...] snakebite", which is not in the source given - the wording in the source is " Unemployment meant buying clothes second-hand as well as making them was the only choice available, and similarly snakebite — which would become the goth ‘drink of choice’ — was first drunk out of thrift." That statement is saying that snakebite was originally drunk because it was cheap (a rather dubious claim in itself as generally drinks which involve two different alcohols are more expensive to purchase as a drink than a drink containing only one), but not that it was first drunk (or drunk at all) in the club mentioned. I've not looked at the rest of the claims in that edit - some of it may be fine, though some may be doubtful. SilkTork (talk) 17:43, 8 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your input and getting back to us so quickly, I'll try to rewrite that second edit to fit more with that perspective of it. Issan Sumisu (talk) 18:30, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Have you read page 46 and page 47 that are available on googlebooks? I invite you to read page 46 from the sentence "We devote an entire chapter to the Sisters of Mercy" and then page 47. In that part of the book, the author explains that his conclusion is entirely based from the reading of one blog written by a Sisters Of Mercy fan. (not from the interviews of many journalists of that time who covered the scene, no from one blog, one single testimony from an anonymous blog). Another important point, since when the Sisters of Mercy are considered as the first gothic rock band ? Music historians usually cite Bauhaus' "Bela Lugosi" (1979) as the first gothic rock record. In the book "Gothic Rock" by Mick Mercer who is the goth historian per excellence (recognized as such by Simon Reynolds another famous music historian), Mercer doesn't advance that the "F Club" gave birth to goth, isn't it problematic ? The "Batcave" is generally considered as the club that spawned the goth subculture for both Mercer and Reynolds. In the Quietus source mentioned above, the "goth" tag is not mentioned once, so this source can't be used. Woovee (talk) 02:58, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
 * The Quietus article does mention goth, for example: "As ‘Alice’ marked the starting point of The Sisters’ rapid ascent, it coincided with the full-blown explosion of the subculture that would dominate their reputation and that of Leeds. 1983 was The Year Goth Broke." I don't think it's a great source, and if that was the source used to associate the F Club with goth I would say that there was too much interpretation involved, but as a respectable source which implicitly supports the explicit claim in The Evolution of Goth Culture I find it useful. And, I'll be honest, I didn't spend much time on this matter looking for sources, and when I found two very quickly, combined with the The Evolution of Goth Culture source itself being solid, I was satisfied. My assumption being if I found those corroborations in reliable sources so quickly, albeit not explicit, there is likely to be others.
 * And yes, I did read the source, which in addition to the blog, also cited Scharf (2011), Mercer (1988), Thompson (2007) and Spracklen, Henderson & Procter (2016) in relation to the relevance of the F Club to goth.
 * I understand the concerns and hesitations, but until a reliable source can be found to counter the claims made in The Evolution of Goth Culture then we have to accept it. What we do is summarise human knowledge. We don't pass judgment on it and argue that it is wrong. We use other reliable sources to do that. It is not our place to challenge or alter the sum of human knowledge, even if we strongly believe the sum of human knowledge to be wrong. What we always encourage people to do if they think something is wrong, is to write an article on the issue and get it published by a reliable source. Then we can include it on Wikipedia. Until that happens we have to accept the research published by reliable sources without censoring it or altering it. If a claim appears to be dubious or unreliable (unsupported by other sources) we still include it but word it as "According to Foo" (in this case "According to Spracklen"). And that is still an editorial talking point, though given that the claim appears to be supported by other sources, and there's no evidence of a counter claim, my inclination is to accept the edit as it stands. SilkTork (talk) 09:56, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Concerning "the source, which in addition to the blog, also cited Scharf (2011), Mercer (1988), Thompson (2007) and Spracklen, Henderson & Procter (2016) in relation to the relevance of the F Club to goth." In the Evolution 2018 book, it is just advanced that the F Club is also cited in Mercer's "Gothic Rock" but Mercer at any moment, did support that the F Club was " the most important space where goth was formed, defined and limited" [to quote Spracklen in their scholar thesis published in 2018]. Mercer had just written that two members of the Sisters met in that nightclub. Spracklen was apparently not a witness of that era, otherwise they wouldn't have to cite a blog of a Sisters of Mercy fan. But Mercer was a witness of that emerging goth scene, Mercer did write for ZigZag (magazine) in the 1980s and interviewed bands/reviewed concerts. This is a first that wikipedia based the birth of a subculture from such a fresh lame recent source. Spracklen's book may be cited in bibliographies in other scholar books but no proof has been given, advancing that  Spracklen's assertion the F Club " is the most important space where goth was formed, defined and limited" is taken for granted in other published works. If longtime wikipedia member Greg Fasolino was still contributing to wiki, he would tell you that this theory is wp:undue. BTW, editorial choices matter: I can find you reliable sources by young writers advancing that Joy division was a goth band whereas goth didn't exist as such, back then (the goth subculture surfaced at the end of 1982) : had someone pushing those lame RSs about Joy Division, should one include them @ Joy Division and discredit all our previous work ? The question needs to be raised. Woovee (talk) 04:01, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure we should assume that just because Mercer was writing about the scene at the time, he had to know everything, and everything about the scene had to be mentioned by him. On page 113 of his book Gothic Rock Black Book from 1989, he refers to Leeds as Gothsville itself, meaning he clearly thought Leeds was a big part of the scene, but it's unrealistic to think he knew the ins and outs of every club in the city as he wasn't a part of the scene in that city. While, someone like Micah Issitt includes the founding of the F Club as a part of the main goth timeline in Goths: A Guide to an American Subculture. Issan Sumisu (talk) 11:06, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
 * , Gothsville itself was a slogan that John Keenan (Leeds promoter of the F Club and the Futurama festival) coined back then. It's not Mercer's opinion, it is just a quote of Keenan . Woovee (talk) 22:02, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

When one reads a wikipedian saying "I'm not sure", there may be some problems of editing. Here, in the previous reply, a wikipedian is discrediting one of the most important English music journalists/music historians of the 1980s Mick Mercer while choosing to priviledge the work of a young US freelance writer Micah Issitt just because Issitt goes in the direction of what the user wants to include on Wikipedia. How Micah Issitt, a young US writer who is in his thirties and is based in Philadelpbia, (so he wasn't obviously present in Leeds in the 1980s), could be more reliable about the nightlife and music in Leeds in the 1980s than Mick Mercer whom was an actual witness and journalist of that era ? , could you read these last three answers, please ? One also has to notice that this same wikipedian has created a wiki article about the F Club one month ago, their article will have to be checked, wp:neutrality. Woovee (talk) 13:02, 11 January 2020 (UTC)
 * We cannot put ourselves above reliable sources. What we do here is reflect what those sources say. We may personally disagree, that's fine, but we cannot let that personal disagreement alter what has been published in such sources. Woovee, at the moment you are trying to make out an argument to ignore what reliable sources say because you have a personal theory that these sources are incorrect in their assessment of the importance of the F Club because your own personal view is the correct one. Just take a step back for a moment and reflect on that. You can find a reliable source which challenges the view that one of the roots of goth developed in the F Club, or publish such a challenge yourself in a reliable publication, or accept that sometimes, even when you absolutely know the real truth, that Wikipedia's arcane rules prevent you from suppressing what has been published in reliable sources. SilkTork (talk) 13:15, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

I can't find anything saying that John Keenan coined "Gothsville", a Google search for "Gothsville" "John Keenan" comes up with zero search results. I have in the past found a source to say that Keenan coined the term "Gothic City", but "Gothsville", is something entirely coined by Mercer, from what I can find. Issan Sumisu (talk) 12:38, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

January 2020: Le Phono (Phonographique)

 * This edit was reverted due to wp:original research and wp:STICKTOSOURCE issue.
 * In Spraeklen's book (2018), at page 49; it is written << Other venues and spaces were coming to be associated with this alternative music scene, such as The Faversham pub and The Phono (Le Phonographique) where the disc jockeys (DJs) played music that was clearly defined as gothic to the local goths in 1984 >>.


 * In Ladouceur's Book (2011), << Gothic Two Step: the original Goth dance move. [...] Take two small steps forward, then two steps back [...] Rumour has it, originated at a club in Leeds called THE PHONO where the dance floor was so small you could only take two steps in any given direction. >> Woovee (talk) 14:21, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

From these sources, one can't edit this line "This same year saw the opening of Le Phonographique in Leeds, which was the first goth club in the world, and led to the creation of the "two steps forward, two steps back" dance and the popularisation of the snakebite within gothic culture" in this wiki article, as it is wp:OR and wp:synthesis. Woovee (talk) 14:31, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

January 2020: Snakebite

 * This edit was reverted due to wp:original research and wp:STICKTOSOURCE issue.
 * In Ladouceur's Book (2011), "the Phono" is not mentioned next to the drink Snakebite.
 * In Spraeklen's book (2018), Snakebite is mentioned nowhere.


 * From these sources, one can't edit this line "This same year saw the opening of Le Phonographique in Leeds, which was the first goth club in the world, and led to the creation of the "two steps forward, two steps back" dance and the popularisation of the snakebite within gothic culture" in this wiki article either, as it is wp:OR. Woovee (talk) 14:21, 11 January 2020 (UTC)


 * I actually just recited that with the wrong source, I meant to use the Dazed source that we've already discussed. Sorry, I made that mistake, but wouldn't have it have been easier to mention that on its own here or mention it on my talk page rather than make two subsections? I'm really sorry if I've annoyed you with this whole situation, it wasn't my intentions, this information just seems important to this page and is clearly backed up with coverage. I mentioned a third opinion to you on your own talk page as I thought it would clear everything up for both of us, and at this point it seems best to respect the conclusion. Issan Sumisu (talk) 17:32, 11 January 2020 (UTC)


 * SilkTork on 8 January 2020 & I have already told you that the Dazed source including this line <> won't work either to support your edit. Woovee (talk) 21:43, 11 January 2020 (UTC)


 * You both said it didn't support the previous phrasing, I rephrased it the way that Silktone interpreted it as. If you remember, I perceived it as saying that the drink was created there, while he perceived it as saying it was first associated with the goth subculture there. You never explained what your perception was, but as we agreed on a third opinion, I assumed we were going to follow their perception, which I did. Issan Sumisu (talk) 11:56, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Unsourced information
Below information was tagged for needing sources long-term. Feel free to reinsert with appropriate references. DonIago (talk) 18:50, 22 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Here are some references for the Whitby Goth Weekend: I don't know how well its known internationally but it's generally seen as the goth event in the UK, it's also individually notable, so I think it'd be a mistake to miss it out. Issan Sumisu (talk) 19:58, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Can we get more color photography?
While I understand that taking photos in black-and-white is an element of the goth subculture, these photos don't tend to be very illustrative of the subculture for outsiders. One of the signature elements of the goth subculture is black clothing. This is hard to see in black-and-white photos, where all dark clothing looks black. Loki (talk) 19:34, 27 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with this. Since there was no arguments against it in the two months since it was posted, I assumed nobody opposed the idea, so I inserted these images: . Issan Sumisu (talk) 22:04, 13 January 2024 (UTC)