Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Apple/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:29, 22 August 2008.

Apple

 * Nominator: User:Aua (talk)
 * previous FAC (00:08, 31 January 2008)

The article is comprehensive, well-sourced, well-illustrated and is a GA at the moment. All issues in raised in the previous FAC have been addressed.

Cheers! &Lambda; u α (Operibus anteire) 12:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments —This is part of a comment by Ealdgyth   which was interrupted by the following:
 * You've mixed using the Template:Citation with the templates that start with Cite such as Template:Cite journal or Template:Cite news. They shouldn't be mixed per WP:CITE.
 * Well, there was one instance of the citation template, and it has been removed now.
 * What makes the following reliable sources?
 * http://www.uga.edu/fruit/apple.html (current ref 1 - it's also got two retrieved on dates and no bibliographical information)
 * It is published by the University of Georgia, which, in my mind, would make it reliable. (missing info added to the ref)
 * http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/
 * "Natural England was formed by bringing together English Nature, the landscape, access and recreation elements of the Countryside Agency and the environmental land management functions of the Rural Development Service." In any case, another source can be used instead.
 * Has it been corrected/changed? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:30, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/durer/
 * You are right on that one, will get rid of it tomorrow.
 * Has it been corrected/changed? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:30, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * http://www.solarnavigator.net/solar_cola/apples.htm (also lacking all bibliographical information)
 * It is based on a number of reliable references and sources, mentioned at the end of that page.
 * I'd call this borderline and am leaving it out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:30, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * http://www.bestapples.com/facts/facts_controlled.shtml
 * From the Washington State Apple Advertising Commission, which was created by an act of the Washington State Legislature. I would trust it as a reliable source.
 * I'd call this borderline also, just because it's created by a legislature, doesn't necessarily make a source reliable. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:30, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * http://offpollen.typepad.com/pollenatrix/2005/03/rapid_evolution.html looks like a blog to me.
 * Removed.
 * http://www.gardenaction.co.uk/fruit_veg_diary/fruit_veg_mini_project_september_2f_apple.asp (also lacking all bibliographical information)
 * Removed.
 * http://www.doityourself.com/stry/applepests (also lacking all bibliographical information)
 * Am not sure about DoItYourself.com... :S
 * http://www.bestapples.com/varieties/varieties_foodsafety.shtml (also lacking bibliographical information)
 * From the Washington State Apple Advertising Commission, which was created by an act of the Washington State Legislature. I would trust it as a reliable source.
 * See above. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:30, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * http://www.bestapples.com/healthy/ (also lacking bibliographical information)
 * From the Washington State Apple Advertising Commission, which was created by an act of the Washington State Legislature. I would trust it as a reliable source. (Yes, that site was cited three times for three different pages as it appears)
 * See above. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:30, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Current ref 3 (Kristin Churchill) doesn't need to state it's htm or that it's English. Also, it's lacking a publisher, as "Assistant Editor" isn't the publisher it's the title of the author.
 * Done.


 * You don't need to put htm in as the format for the websites, it's assumed that it's htm/html. Only use the format field if the link is something other than html.
 * All the extra English and html parameters have been removed.


 * Likewise for the language parameter, it's assumed to be English so that doesn't need to be specified.
 * All the extra English and html parameters have been removed.


 * Current ref 4 (Pierre,-eric lauri et. al) needs a publisher.
 * All the missing publisher information has been added.


 * Current ref 6 (Sauer, J. D. ) is lacking a page number?
 * Done.


 * Decide on either last name first on the authors or first name first on the authors. Currently they are mixed.
 * The author's last name comes first, for coauthors, it's the opposite.
 * Right now, current refs 4 & 5 for starters are listed with "Kristin Churchill" and "William J. Bramledge" as authors. Should be "Churchill, Kristin" and "Bramledge, William J." if you're going with last name first for single authors (Which these are). Those are just two examples. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:30, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Current ref 11 (Wasson, R. Gordon...) is lacking a page number.
 * Done.


 * Either list the pages as (page x to x) or (x-x). Right now its mixed.
 * Done.


 * Current ref 15 (WebMuseum: Durer, Albrecht) is lacking all bibliographical information and a last access date.
 * All the missing publisher information has been added.


 * Current ref 16 (Macrone, Michael) is lacking all bibliographical information plus page numbers.
 * Done.


 * Current ref 17 is a link to wiktionary. Generally wiki's aren't considered reliable sources. Also it's just a plain url right now, with no bibliographical information.
 * Removed.


 * Current ref 19 (World apple situation) is lacking all bibliographical information
 * All the missing publisher information has been added.


 * Current ref 22 (Ferree, David Curtis et. al.) is lacking a page number.
 * Done.


 * http://www.hobbyfarms.com/crops-and-gardening/fruit-crops-apples-14897.aspx (current ref 20 Sue Weaver) originally appeared in a print magazine. Should format as such.
 * Done.


 * http://www.actahort.org/books/310/310_17.htm current ref 25 is lacking all bibliograhpical information.
 * All the missing publisher information has been added.


 * Is current ref 26 (H. Ramirez, GV Hoad et. al) supposed to be a book? If so, the authors shouldn't be in italics. Also, is this http://www.actahort.org/books/310/310_17.htm?
 * Current ref 27 (Controlled Atmosphere Storage) is lacking a publisher, etc.
 * All the missing publisher information has been added.


 * Current ref 32 - Wesley, R. you do not need to list the authors qualificiations after each author. Also lacking a publisher. And it's not a pdf.
 * Addressed second point (pdf)


 * Current ref 33 (How to deal with Scab) is lacking a publisher, and any other bibliographcial information.
 * All the missing publisher information has been added.


 * Current ref 35 (Gavin Evans) is a newspaper article and should be formatted as such, not as a website.
 * Addressed.


 * Current ref 39 is lacking all bibliographical information. (interview with Michael Polian)
 * Done.


 * Same for current ref 40 (Information about cancer)
 * Done.


 * Current ref 41 (Apples the British Medical Journal) Is lacking needed bibliographical information, such as publication date, author, etc.
 * All the missing publisher information has been added.


 * External links section has a plain numbered link, the link should be titled.
 * Addressed.
 * Otherwise sources look okay. Links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:34, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Wow, a detailed comment indeed.
 * Well, when you have an article as visible (more than 3000 pages link to it, I think) and with as many sources and users editing it as this article, problems such as those are bound to fester here or there. I will fix them one by one once I get home tonight.
 * Thanks for your comments!
 * Cheers mate!
 * &Lambda; u α (Operibus anteire) 13:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I have addressed some of the issues you raised above and will be done with them by tomorrow.
 * Cheers mate!
 * &Lambda; u α (Operibus anteire) 20:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Let's make YOUR life and my life easier, just intersperse your comments below mine? It'll make figuring things out a LOT easier. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:17, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, I was trying not to break WP:TALK. Will relocated my comments.
 * Cheers mate!
 * &Lambda; u α (Operibus anteire) 21:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I think I finished with them all :)
 * Cheers mate!
 * &Lambda; u α (Operibus anteire) 09:32, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments from Maralia I completed a sample edit mainly for MOS issues and reference formatting. Following is a summary of the issues I found: I did not do a copyedit or read through the text fully; I'll try to get back to this if time permits. Maralia (talk) 15:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Please use nonbreaking spaces between numerals and units of measure
 * References go after punctuation in most cases
 * Image captions do not get ending punctuation unless they are complete sentences
 * In references, specifying 'htm' or 'html' format is redundant; it's the presumed format
 * Same with language=English; not necessary
 * In several cases, the 'work' field was filled out with the author's job title (i.e. "work= NCAT Agriculture Specialist"). This field is for the name of any larger body of work to which the publication belongs.
 * Many of the references are missing publishers or other identifying information. I have inserted hidden comments with the text 'publisher needed', 'date needed' etc on most of them.
 * There are several references that consist merely of an external link; more identifying information is necessary.
 * I have inserted several hidden comments regarding text that didn't make sense; you can find these by searching on <!--.


 * Thanks Maralia for your helpful comments and help with the article; much appreciated!
 * I have finished addressing (hopefully) all the points you raised above and dealt with the hidden comments. If there is anything I have missed, please give me a pointer and I will deal with it.
 * Cheers mate!
 * &Lambda; u α (Operibus anteire) 20:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments on images - There are far too many images in this article. They are sandwiching the text and they are piled on top of each other. See MOS:IMAGES and WP:PICTURE for advice on image placement. I hope this helps! Awadewit (talk) 16:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Image:Koeh-108.jpg - We need the full publication information, including author and possibly illustrator, for this image.
 * Image:Sterappel dwarsdrsn.jpg - We need an author for this image - who is the "myself"?
 * Image:Carl Larsson Brita as Iduna.jpg - We need full publication information here. It is not entirely clear what this drawing is from.
 * Image:Durer Adam and Eve.jpg - Neither of the source links for this image work.
 * Image:Apples supermarket.jpg - Who is the author of this image?
 * Image:Cyborglog-of-eating-old-apple-d360.jpg - The licensing is very confusing here. It would appear that GFDL cannot be used according to the link provided. Also, who is the author of the image?
 * Image:Apple tree blossom.JPG - How do we know that Roger Griffith and Rosser1954 are the same person?
 * Image:Appletree.jpg - This image is missing a source and an author (is the uploader the author?) - can we recover this information from the transfer history?
 * Image:Aphids1533.JPG - What is the source for this image? Who is the author?
 * Image:2005apple.PNG - The link to the source data is broken and the image is missing an author. Also, there is an svg version available, which should be used instead, as that is the preferred format.


 * Thanks Awadewit!
 * Will remove some images once we can sort out the good from the bad.
 * Image:Koeh-108.jpg- from Koehler's Medicinal Plants (1887), by Franz Eugen Köhler and edited by Gustav Pabst.
 * I reiterate - the complete publication information for this book needs to be added to image description page, including author and possibly illustrator. Awadewit (talk) 04:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Done.
 * Do you happen to have the birth and death dates for the author and illustrators? That would make this complete and no one would have to look that up. Awadewit (talk) 11:19, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Image:Sterappel dwarsdrsn.jpg- "Myself" refers to User:Rasbak, he mentions that on his user page
 * The image description page has to have all of this information, too. Awadewit (talk) 04:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Done.


 * Image:Carl Larsson Brita as Iduna.jpg-From the "title page for the Christmas edition of "Idun", 1901". If no further information is required, the image will be removed from the article.
 * We need the complete publication information for that issue. Awadewit (talk) 04:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Striking since it was removed from the article. Awadewit (talk) 20:14, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Image:Durer Adam and Eve.jpg- Left the user a message.
 * You could also try to find a source yourself - sometimes that is easiest Awadewit (talk) 04:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Done.


 * Image:Apples supermarket.jpg- This user is the publisher
 * This information has to be explicitly included on the image description page.Awadewit (talk) 04:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Done.


 * Image:Cyborglog-of-eating-old-apple-d360.jpg-- Confusing indeed, will be removed soon, although it appears from the URL that the user his/her-self took it.
 * I think that is the case, but the licensing is unclear. Awadewit (talk) 04:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Tried as much as possible to fix it, if it is not enough, will simply remove it from the article. Now, removed.
 * I'm striking this since it has been removed. Awadewit (talk) 11:19, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Image:Apple tree blossom.JPG- We can't! Another candidate for removal.
 * Try contacting the user. Awadewit (talk) 04:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Contacted user, albeit there is no reason to doubt him in the first place.


 * Image:Appletree.jpg- I can't see the problem here, the author is User:Mistman123.
 * Uploaders are not always authors. Are we sure that is the case here? If so, that information needs to be included in the "author" field. Awadewit (talk) 04:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Done; removed.
 * I'm striking this since it has been removed. Awadewit (talk) 11:19, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Image:Aphids1533.JPG - It would be assumed that the author is user:Pollinator from the license. However, it can be removed if need be.
 * Uploaders are not always authors. If we can be sure this is the case, we need to indicate on the image description that Pollinator is the author. Awadewit (talk) 04:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Done, fixed image info, and I left the uploader a message to be on the safe side.


 * Image:2005apple.PNG- SVG is used now. The link is broken indeed and no way to ask the user since they are blocked. It can be removed too or a new source to be found.
 * Why don't you try to find the source? Awadewit (talk) 04:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I am striking this since it has been removed from the article. Awadewit (talk) 20:14, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Link broken, and could not find a source. Remove?
 * Let me look around for a source for a while. Awadewit (talk) 11:19, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Cheers mate!
 * &Lambda; u α (Operibus anteire) 20:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Replied with done above.
 * Cheers mate!
 * &Lambda; u α (Operibus anteire)


 * This dispatch has some helpful information regarding free images. You might want to take a look at it. Awadewit (talk) 11:19, 19 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks mate!
 * I have added the birth-death dates to Image:Koeh-108.jpg, with sources.
 * Since we are using illustrations, we need the birth and death dates of the illustrators, too. That is the what claim to PD rests on. Awadewit (talk) 20:14, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Image:Carl Larsson Brita as Iduna.jpg, and Image:2005apple.PNG were removed from the article.
 * Cheers!
 * &Lambda; u α (Operibus anteire) 11:40, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Object —This is part of a comment by Nichalp   which was interrupted by the following: Let me know on my talk once these issues are fixed and the article copyedited. Regards, =Nichalp   «Talk»=  19:39, 17 August 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) The article is poorly presented for starters. There are simply too many images on the page to begin with. Images should serve as an accompaniment to the text alongside rather than as galleries.
 * Done, reduced number of images.
 * 1) Avoid left-placed images that displaces the sectional heading towards the right
 * Done, no sectional headings are displaced towards the right now.
 * 1) A copyedit is badly required. The article lacks a flow, and too many grammatical errors.
 * 2) Link China to People's Republic of China
 * Done
 * I saw one more instance that is not fixed. =Nichalp   «Talk»=  17:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Do give the imperial equivalents. Use convert to generate imperial equivalents of all metric values where possible.
 * Done
 * 1) At least 55 million tonnes of apples were grown worldwide in 2005, but your source is dated 2004. Are there no updated figures available?
 * Done, another source was used. Still looking for updated figures.
 * 1) Check 2/5ths vs 7%. Suggest the values be given in percentages so that it is easier to read
 * Done
 * 1) $10 billion --> dab to US$ 10 billion
 * I don't what you are trying to say here.
 * Dollar ($) is ambiguous. Using USD or US$ makes it clearer.
 * 1) southwestern Russia region of Asia Minor -- I've never heard of any region of Russia lying in Asia Minor
 * Done
 * 1) as well as in Argentina and in the United States since the arrival of Europeans --> trivia. Remove
 * I would not consider it trivia, because it's about winter apples.
 * 1) You've mixed BC and CE. Two different dating styles. Suggest you stick to one, the BCE/CE would be preferable.
 * Done
 * 1) National Fruit Collection --> Avoid linking internally.
 * Done
 * 1) =Apple production= has a lot of listy  content. Need to be converted to prose or a side table.
 * A table is no better, since we already have two at the end of the article.
 * 1) I notice a lot of specific US/UK instances are mentioned in the text. Are they specifically notable in the larger context of the article? This is one example: As an example, the U.S. state of Washington made its reputation for apple growing on Red Delicious. --> Nothing of that sort is mentioned in the source you have provided. Another example: In the United States, more than 60% of all the apples sold commercially are grown in Washington state. Why single out statistics of a single country, that too one that supplies <8% of the apples.
 * Done, removed first one, but kept the second since in the same section it also mentions a number of other countries too.
 * 1) Apples were brought to North America with colonists in the 1600s -> Why has Australia/New Zealand and South America been ignored a mention?
 * Because there were no sources or information about them.
 * Then I think you should remove North America and Argentina. Does not balance the article well.
 * Finished replying to your comments, mate!
 * Cheers!
 * &Lambda; u α (Operibus anteire) 20:13, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The $10 billion

Oppose This is an interesting article but it is not ready for FA.
 * A big problem is that this:
 * The center of diversity of the genus Malus is the eastern Turkey, southwestern Russia region of Asia Minor. Apples were probably improved through selection over a period of thousands of years by early farmers. Alexander the Great is credited with finding dwarfed apples in Asia Minor in 300 BC; those he brought back to Greece may well have been the progenitors of dwarfing rootstocks. Apples were brought to North America with colonists in the 1600's, and the first apple orchard on this continent was said to be near Boston in 1625. From New England origins, apples moved west with pioneers, John Chapman (alias Johnny Appleseed) and missionaries during the 1700's and 1800's. In the 1900s, irrigation projects in Washington state began and allowed the development of the multi-billion dollar fruit industry, of which the apple is the leading species. which is from here, is too similar to this in the article:
 * The center of diversity of the genus Malus is the eastern Turkey. The apple tree was perhaps the earliest tree to be cultivated,[8] and its fruits have been improved through selection over thousands of years. Alexander the Great is credited with finding dwarfed apples in Asia Minor in 300 BC;[1] those he brought back to Greece might have been the progenitors of dwarfing rootstocks. Apples were brought to North America with colonists in the 1600s,[1] and the first apple orchard on the North American continent was said to be near Boston in 1625.


 * There is no mention of viruses or viroids under Pests and diseases.
 * There are too many images; the Yonkers one is redundant and the one with the bee does not show the act of pollination, it shows a bee next to a flower.
 * Resulting in a range of desired characteristics... is too vague to be meaningful, (and it should be desirable).
 * There is lots of redundancy as in  ultimate size of tree.
 * There is poor logic as in the United States is the second leading producer where the preceding sentences are in the past tense, and refer to 2005.
 * World production should be World's productuion
 * in fact, the region - more redundancy here.
 * The work of Barrie Juniper et al. just needs a citation, not this: Recent DNA analysis by Barrie Juniper, Emeritus Fellow in the Department of Plant Sciences at Oxford University and others, has indicated, however, that the hybridization theory is probably false.
 * Some is rarely needed or helpful as in some recent breeding programmes.
 * And is the article in British or US English? We have programme here but center above.

I have read as far as History, but it is clear to me that the article still requires much work to bring it to FA; a good copy-edit would be a start. Graham Colm Talk 17:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.