Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bert Trautmann


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:46, 23 September 2008.

Bert Trautmann

 * Nominator(s): Oldelpaso (talk)

Self-nom. An article about one of the eminent football goalkeepers of the mid-20th century, best known as being the player who broke his neck in the 1956 FA Cup final but carried on playing. A current GA, I've taken it about as far as I can, and believe it meets the FA criteria. Oldelpaso (talk) 07:43, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment: Is it possible to insert an image (maybe with a license like PD-old)?-- A ndrea 93  (msg) 09:44, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Support: The article is very good, although an image of the footballer would be appreciate.-- A ndrea 93  (msg) 20:44, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * His playing career ran from 1949–1964. For PD-old a photo would need to have been published in 1938 at the latest. Trautmann is still alive, and makes public appearances on rare occasions, so it would still be possible to create a free image of him, ruling out a fair-use shot. The neck brace he wore after his injury is sometimes on public display at the National Football Museum, but they are not currently exhibiting it. When it is next on display, I'll get a photo of it, but I don't know how far in the future that will be. Oldelpaso (talk) 10:17, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think FAs have to be something special, certainly it meets GA criteria. There are issues of photgraphs of non-permanent exhibitions . Have you tried contacting the individual or club for a free picture? Fasach Nua (talk) 10:24, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The current club administration are big on "intellectual property management" and maximising its commercialisation. While I haven't contacted them directly in connection with this particular article, previous attempts to get Manchester City to release images under a free license for other articles have proved fruitless (though I must point out that the club's museum curator is very helpful when dealing with queries). Oldelpaso (talk) 11:32, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * regrettable oppose - I think this is harsh decision, but there are images out there, the requirement of WP:NFCC is "Non-free content is used only where no free equivalent is available, or could be created". At some stage editors or the foundation are going to have to put their hands in their pockets and buy copyrighted images and re-licence them as GFDL in order to finish the WP project. It is a good article, but without a picture of the subject it is regrettably not a featured one (criteria 3). Fasach Nua (talk) 11:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * This might be a case where we can justify a use of an older image of the gentlemen in his football outfit making a key play or a key moment in his footballing careeer that is described in the text. Given the timeframe of his career, there is a very high likelihood of no free equivalent of his active career, but the key factor is that a replacement non-free image has to show high levels of significance to the reader, so it can't just be the man dressed in his outfit.
 * I disagree, however, this fails #3, which includes "where appropriate". A free image is impossible, a non-free is very difficult to justify per BLP, so it is nearly not appropriate to include an image.  --M ASEM  18:34, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * A free image can be acquired, it is not easy, but its not impossible either. Fasach Nua (talk) 07:45, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I know exceptions have been made in the past for people that are recluse and rarely make public appearances, particularly if the aspect the person is noted for is visually quite different from what the person looks like today. In other words, to get a free picture of Bert as a footballer is neigh impossible.  To get a free picture of Bert today is possible but difficult, and even with it may not help the reader's comprehension of the article (we just don't use a free image just because it's free, it should still aid in the article).  Again, quoting from NFCC#1: "Non-free content is used only where no free equivalent is available, or could be created, that would serve the same encyclopedic purpose."  I cannot see how a free image of Bert today would serve the same purpose as a picture of Brent as a footballer (*) would, thus a non-free image can meet NFCC#1.  (*) But as stated above, it needs to be more than just Bert in a football outfit, it should be a moment that is further described in the text of the article.  In other words, there will be no infobox picture but it can exist in the body next to the section describing that key moment. --M ASEM  15:07, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm making some previously unexpected progress on the free image front, and should be able to put it through OTRS soon. Oldelpaso (talk) 19:57, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * A stunning job with the image, if only other editors went to that kind of effort, WP would be a much better place, oppose striken, criteria 3 met in full Fasach Nua (talk) 14:41, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Comments
 * Picky, but websites in non-English languages should list what language they are written in in the footnote.
 * Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:22, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Done. Oldelpaso (talk) 14:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I've been clicking around for quite a while, and haven't yet found a definition for the acronym, FA. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 23:19, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Found at last: The Football Association (after clicking through four articles).  Please define acronyms on first occurrence.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 23:21, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * By linking or by writing it out in full? Like NASA or FIFA, the full name is seldom used. Oldelpaso (talk) 08:25, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Not everyone is a sports fan, it helps if you spell it out in full. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:58, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Comments -
 * "The club's decision to sign a former Axis paratrooper sparked protests, twenty thousand people attending a demonstration." Connecting word missing and number shouldn't be spelled out. "with 20,000 people attending a demonstration" is what this should probably look like.
 * "With 15 minutes of the match remaining Trautmann suffered serious injury..." Why not "With 15 minutes remaining in the match Trautmann suffered a serious injury..."
 * Youth in Germany: Hindenburg could have his full name given. This isn't the same as seeing Hitler, where there is no doubt what it's referring to. The first thing I thought of when seeing Hindenburg was the ship.
 * Early football career: Citation needed for "Trautmann was replaced the recently retired Frank Swift, one of the greatest keepers in the club's history." (the greatest part)
 * Would like to see citation at end of fourth paragraph of Manchester City, where criticism is being discussed.
 * Style of play: "When Russian goalkeeper Lev Yashin was asked to name the greatest ever goalkeeper..." This would work better with ever and goalkeeper reversed.
 * Private life: Are the names of his family members known?
 * Date linking has recently become deprecated. Tony1 uses a script that will take care of this for you if you ask him, or even if you don't, as I've seen him remove date links from most new FACs. If you don't want delinking to occur, you'll need to leave him a message.  Giants2008  ( 17-14 ) 03:08, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Overall a great read. Just a few niggles. Giggy (talk) 10:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The entire first paragraph of the Second World War section is cited to one page in a book. I dunno, I just find it a bit unlikely that one page covers all that...
 * "through which he met the club secretary's daughter, whom he later married" - name?
 * "made his first team debut" - non-Football fans might not note that the "first team" refers to a team (as opposed to "first" and "debut" being redundant).... does that make sense, and can it be clarified?
 * "and after a competent display in his first home..." - ref for the rest of this paragraph?
 * I don't like the idea of having a Manchester City after most of the previous section discussed him playing for City. Maybe rename it?
 * "Trautmann's convalescence took several months..." - unsourced paragraph...
 * I think I've dealt with everything raised by you and Giants2008. No doubt one of you will let me know if I've inadvertently missed anything. Oldelpaso (talk) 12:23, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Support. Prose is great, my niggles erased. Giggy (talk) 09:56, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Can someone check the images that are in the article? None of them have a fully-filled template, and I'm ready to support otherwise. I'm still learning the basics of picture-checking, or else I'd do it myself.  Giants2008  ( 17-14 ) 03:11, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Image:Bremen an der Schlachte 1922.jpg needs an author. The others seem fine to me. Giggy (talk) 03:21, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't know any more about that image, I came across it when browsing Commons for old photographs of Bremen. It also looks like my attempt to get a free image of Trautmann himself may have fallen through. The copyright holder is happy for the image to be used "on Wikipedia", but I have been unable to secure permission which includes downstream use. I have found out about a statue of Trautmann, which I might be able to take a picture of next weekend. Oldelpaso (talk) 09:14, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If you're photographing a statue, you might want to read up on freedom of panorama, as you may end up disappointed otherwise... Giggy (talk) 09:26, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * As it is permanently situated in premises open to the public (in the UK) I think I'll be OK. Oldelpaso (talk) 10:05, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Image now added. Oldelpaso (talk) 14:22, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Support Very well-written article about a very different kind of sports hero. Great work!--HJensen, talk 18:45, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.