Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Chrisye/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ucucha 20:54, 11 April 2012.

Chrisye

 * Nominator(s): Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:36, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it meets all the criteria. I have invested a significant amount of time and money into the expansion of this article and the results have paid off well. Chrisye, although he did not have an international career, is one of the most famous singers in Indonesia. Over thirty years he released 21 studio albums and collaborated on one that Rolling Stone Indonesia called the best Indonesian album of all time. I'd like to thank everyone who took a look at this, including Drmies, Mark Arsten, and Malleus Fatuorum who copyedited, and Brianboulton and Ruhrfisch who conducted a peer review. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:36, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, I have digital copies of the Kompas references if required. They are in Indonesian, however. I am also hoping that this is TFA for the 5 year anniversary of his death (30 March 2012) so expediency would be appreciated. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:50, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Comment I found 3 references that have harv errors (using Ucucha's script): 64, 71, and 76. Also, some of the news and web sources don't have a work or publisher defined, and that is problematic for verification.  Clay  Clay  Clay  04:54, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Fixed the harv errors for sure. Pretty sure I got all the missing work / publisher parameters. Diff Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:54, 28 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Resolved comments by Mark Arsten (talk) moved to talk at 01:36, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Alright, looks like they've been taken care of. Thanks to the quick responses of Crisco and Malleus, I'm now ready to Support this article's promotion to featured status. Mark Arsten (talk) 02:30, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot! Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:36, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Comment: Since I partly peer-reviewed this last month (Ruhrfisch did much more), the article has had considerable work, including an extensive copyedit. However, I still find some of the prose unsatisfacory. Here are a few examples from the "Band member and early projects" section:-
 * "In mid-1975, with several weeks left on his contract, his parents called him from Jakarta..." The grammar is wrong; you need to rephrase, e.g.: "In mid-1975, when his contract still had several weeks to run, his parents called him from Jakarta..."
 * Sound good


 * "Unable to return to Jakarta immediately, he was easily distracted." I don't understand "easily". I take it to mean that he was distracted from his music and performed badly, but this needs to be clarified.
 * Clarified


 * "Chrisye refused" is a bit abrupt, with no explanation given
 * Double checked the source, reason added


 * "Pramaqua Records approached Chrisye and offered him an album" I assume you mean they offered him a contract to produce an album.
 * Right


 * "He attempted unsuccessfully to buy all the stock and effectively prevent its release, but because the general public considered the album a sequel to Badai Pasti Berlalu, the sales were poor." I'm having difficulty working this sentence out. I would rephrase: "After his unsuccessful attempt to buy up all the stock, the album was released, but because the general public considered it a sequel to Badai Pasti Berlalu, the sales were poor."
 * Sounds good.

Another more general point is that from time to time, irrelevant detail seems to creep in. I am thinking of sentences such as "The funeral was marred by the presence of pickpockets, one of whom was captured but released without charge." Also, the "Personal life" section looks threadbare, with some fairly inconsequential anecdotes and little else. I am not sure of the usefulness of the section. Brianboulton (talk) 23:30, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Pickpockets removed. The anecdotes in the personal life section are to illustrate that he was  perceived as living simply and trying not to let his stardom get to his head. If a more direct statement is preferred, I'll do so. Thanks for the review! Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:50, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Anyone? Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:25, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Support Leaning to Support : For the past week or so I have been tinkering around with the prose here and there, making changes and the odd rephrase. The article has been reviewed and copyedited ad nauseam; I think it's nearly there, though I'd like a day or so more, delegates permitting, to nitpick around a few more aspects of the prose. I will be done soon. Brianboulton (talk) 18:29, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Alright, hope to hear from you soon. Once again, thanks for the review! Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:24, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I have done my final readthrough and have made a few more prose changes (nothing major). The one significant omission is that Chrisye's status per Rolling Stone as third-greatest Indonesian musician of all time needs to be in the article, as well as the lead. And of course it needs to be cited. Subject to that adjustment I will support. Brianboulton (talk) 11:50, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * In article as this sentence (currently cited to FN99) "In 2011 [Rolling Stone Indonesia] listed Chrisye as the third-greatest Indonesian musician of all time. Eros Djarot described him as having a great voice, but somewhat shy and generally unwilling to discuss social issues." Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:09, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * How did I miss that? Fair enough, I have upgraded to support. I am sure that there will be further nitpicking around the prose, but I don't think there are any major lapses outstanding. There are parts of the article that still don't read easily, but given all the effort that's gone into it (not least by Malleus who has copyedited unsparingly), I think we can accept it for what it is. Well done. Brianboulton (talk) 23:56, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the support. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:59, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Support by Ruhrfisch comments  I peer reviewed this and was aksed to comment on the FAC. Like Brianboulton, I find the article improved since then, but still see some rough prose and other issues. Some examples (not a complete list) follow:
 * I have switched to support with a few quibbles below Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:51, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


 * awkward Chrisye and Joris learned to play by accompanying their father's records and songs recorded from the radio, and were unable to read music.[7][8] perhaps something more like Chrisye and Joris, who were unable to read music, learned to play by accompanying their father's records and songs recorded from the radio.[7][8] or even just ''Chrisye and Joris learned to play by accompanying their father's records and songs recorded from the radio, as they were unable to read music.[7][8]
 * I like that second one. Worked in.


 * He eventually fell ill over a period of several months, during which time the rest of the band left for New York.[13] unclear - was he ill for several months? Did it take several months for him to become ill? Did it take the band several months to go to New York?
 * Changed to "for"


 * What is the subject of this sentence? Often rehearsing late into the night, the indie project mixed Western rock and Balinese gamelan and was produced collaboratively.[1][18]  The band rehearsed, but the project is the album they produced
 * Changed to "The band often rehearsed late into the night; the indie project mixed Western rock and Balinese gamelan and was produced collaboratively."


 * Awkward and sentence probably should be split The song was recorded in Irama Mas Studio in Pluit, North Jakarta[22] and included on an album with the other contest winners; originally the ninth track, it was rearranged into the lead position to increase the album's marketability after the original format sold poorly.
 * Reordered and split


 * I brought this up at the peer review as it seems to contradict itself. First they record the soundtrack over 2 months, then we are told that it only took 21 days (less than a full month). Then there is the confusion we read that records a film's soundtrack, but then we elarn that the soundtrack alreay exists and won an award, then we are told that someone has hired CHrisye to record [a cover of?] the soundtrack [or vocals for an existing soundtrack?] ''That same year, Chrisye and several artists including Djarot and Jockie recorded the soundtrack for Badai Pasti Berlalu over two months.[27] After the soundtrack won a Citra Award at the 1978 Indonesian Film Festival, Irama Mas studios approached the group to do a soundtrack album for a flat fee.[27] With Chrisye and Berlian Hutauruk on vocals, the soundtrack was rerecorded in album form in Pluit over 21 days.[27][28]
 * Soundtrack - Two months ; rerecorded soundtrack - 21 days. The sources don't state why, but the soundtrack wasn't lifted directly from the film. He recorded both the original (for the film) and the album. I think it's clear enough there, but I welcome alternate phrasings.


 * Watch WP:OVERLINKing - Badai Pasti Berlalu is linked twice in two paragraphs
 * One is the album, one is the film (same title)
 * Sorry to have missed the distinction and thanks for clarifying. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:51, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Be consistent on the little things - is Badai Pasti Berlalu italicized or not?
 * Fixed


 * I do not speak Bahasa Indonesian, but I am pretty sure these do not both translate to the same thing in English "1978 – Sabda Alam (Nature's Order)" and " 1979 – Percik Pesona (Nature's Order)" (copy and paste error perhaps?)
 * Fixed

Sorry it took me so long to review this, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:52, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Overall the article seems comprehensive, but I do think it odd that he took a new name on conversion to Islam (from Christian to Chrismansyah), but the meaning is never explained.
 * Not explicitly stated in the source, but the name Christian is a Christian name, which would go against his new religion. Think of Cat Stevens changing his name to Yusuf Islam, with the original name more explicitly Christian. Thanks for the review! Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:28, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Should his name change be mentioned in the article? Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:51, 7 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I am also leaning towards support, but need a day or so to carefully re-read it and perhaps tweak a few places. Sorry to be so slow in all this, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 19:14, 5 April 2012 (UTC)
 * No problem. Once again, thanks for the review! Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:24, 5 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I made a few minor copyedits but find the prose is up to FA standards now. Could this be written to avoid two "themselves"? ''The group renamed themselves Gipsy in 1969 to give themselves a more macho and Western-sounding name.[2][8] Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:51, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review! Name change added and sentence rearranged as "The group was renamed Gipsy in 1969, which they considered more macho and Western-sounding." Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:25, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Image check by Noleander End Noleander comments. --Noleander (talk) 13:19, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * There are five images: the top two are not freely available (probably) but both have valid fair use rationales.
 * The bottom three images are free, and have proper information explaining the source & rights information.
 * The three images in commons do not have the  template, but my understanding is that that template is optional, and not a bar to FA status.   Can someone confirm that?
 * Conclusion: Images meet FA standards.
 * Added personality rights template to image of Gutawa and Fredly, just to be safe. I don't think a PR template would apply to a grave. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:09, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Support - Comments from Noleander
 * Clarify - "drawing on the double-recording technique pioneered by the Beatles" - The term "double-recording" needs to be explained here, or else a link to a WP article (or section)  on it.
 * Added clarification from Endah source


 * Wording - " therefore the two incorporated a lighter style." - the word incorporated could imply there is an album already in place that that amended; but they are creating an album from scratch.  Maybe:  used, utilized, employed, adopted (but that implies they worked together before), chose to use.
 * changed to "used"


 * Source? - "While in this state of despair, Chrisye ..." - despair is a rather strong word... can you double check that the source supports it in this context?
 * From the source, quick and dirty translation: "What was I supposed to do? I felt as if my career had reached the finish line. This condition made me increasingly frightened. ... In the next few years, my career would fade and I would be forgotten. I often confided in Yanti. 'Will my career only take me up to here? I'm getting older. There are still chances to make new albums, but that will slowly dry up, just like my name will be slowly buried.'" I think that allows despair, but perhaps "intense doubt" would be acceptable?


 * More precise: "Several of his albums received certification of silver or higher." - May as well be more precise (some readers may not know what is higher than silver):   "Six of his albums were certified silver or gold".
 * Done


 * Link in caption: "After the success of the Sendiri concert, Chrisye collaborated several times with Erwin Gutawa .." - Readers may find it useful to have a link to Erwin Gutawa in the caption, since they may just be scanning the article.
 * Done


 * Wording - "Chrisye received three BASF Awards, held by the BASF cassette production up to the mid 1990s, for bestselling albums; ..." - The word "held" is more appropriate for events, not prizes.  Maybe "received three BASF Awards for bestselling albums; ...". Also, the fact that BASF stopped giving out the awards in the mid 1990s is a bit irrelevant, and only confuses the sentence.
 * Trimmed, and changed to sponsored.


 * Book title - "The first, Chrisye: Sebuah Memoar Musikal (Chrisye: a Musical Memoir), was published in 2007 and details his childhood, career, and struggle with cancer. The second, The Last Words of Chrisye, was released..." - Just confirming: the second book's title is English, even though the book is written in Indonesian?
 * Yep. Cover visible at Google. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:20, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

End Noleander comments. --Noleander (talk) 13:52, 6 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the review! I hope I've addressed all of your comments to your satisfaction. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:20, 6 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Changed to Support, based on recent improvements. --Noleander (talk) 02:42, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your support! Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:25, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Note - A spotcheck of the sources for verification and close paraphrasing is needed please. Graham Colm (talk) 12:35, 7 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I have (copy and pasteable, for G-Translate) digitizations of the offline Kompas sources from after 1985 for whomever does the spotcheck; the earlier ones are PDFs of the entire page. The Endah sources are available at Gbooks (here and Cover here), but only as a limited preview. Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:01, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Source spotchecks done -
 * I'm doing the spotchecks now. --Noleander (talk) 16:05, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:53, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I've finished going through the sources you emailed to me. Final step:  can you post (on my Talk page) your translations from the Endah source for these four random footnotes: #15 (pages 96-97), #29 (pages 140-142), #49 (page 246), #65 (page 304).  You dont need to translate the entire page(s) ... just the snippet that supports the material in the article they are supporting.  Thanks. --Noleander (talk) 00:27, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Alright, that's done. Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:15, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The vast majority of the sources, including the two biographical books by Endah, in written in Indonesian, which I do not read. However, the nominator supplied me with (a) a dozen web-based sources which I was able to translate into English with Google-translate; and (b) some of their own translations of four random selections from the Endah works.  I've gone through those, and can validate footnotes #8, #16, #29, #49, and #65.  Also, I've scrutinized the tone and emphasis of the sources, and compared it to the tone and emphasis of the article, and they are harmonious.  For those reasons, I think the likelihood of source-related problems (deliberate or accidental) is extremely low.  --Noleander (talk) 16:55, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review! Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:39, 10 April 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.