Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Francis Neale/archive1

Francis Neale

 * Nominator(s):  Ergo Sum  02:14, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

This article is about one of the important figures in the development of Catholicism in the Maryland & DC area and a prominent Jesuit in the early United States.  Ergo Sum  02:14, 28 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Image review. The images are good, the rationales, sources and licensing seem in order. I'm slightly puzzled by the "Georgetown College close in appearance to during Neale's tenure" caption. I understand it means "close in appearance to what it was during Neale's tenure", but the current version IMHO makes little sense in terms of grammatical correctness. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 12:22, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I've tweaked the phrasing. How do you think it reads now?  Ergo Sum  03:10, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I think it's better now. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 11:29, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Comments from Therapyisgood
Thank you for your comments,.  Ergo Sum  02:34, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Meanwhile, John Carroll, the Bishop of Baltimore meanwhile is a very awkward way to start a sentence, and kind of vague.
 * Rephrased.  Ergo Sum  02:24, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * had recently founded when? I'm usually OK with this language in the lead, but not in the body as much.
 * Added a specific date.  Ergo Sum  02:24, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * manorial Jesuits can you link/explain what "manorial Jesuits" are?
 * Clarified.  Ergo Sum  02:26, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Neale's pastorate proved to be highly beneficial to the church. this requires a reference at least, maybe two if it's not OR.
 * I added a citation and rephrased to more closely track the language of the source.  Ergo Sum  02:29, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * which was the sole source of income, room and board. his sole source of income? sentence is difficult to understand.
 * Clarified.  Ergo Sum  02:30, 10 January 2022 (UTC)
 * His administration of the college was poor, same as above; definitely requires a citation.
 * I removed it altogether.  Ergo Sum  01:21, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
 * However, before long, he suffered a stroke while in Alexandria what does "before long" mean? can you give an exact date? Therapyisgood (talk) 01:16, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, the source doesn't give a date. It only says he suffered a stroke while spiritual director.  Ergo Sum  02:34, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Support for featured article status pending a source review. Therapyisgood (talk) 17:32, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Source review from Ealdgyth

 * What makes the following "high quality reliable sources":
 * http://trinity.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/December-6-2015.pdf ?
 * I believe this falls under WP:PRIMARY. It is a primary source that attests to basic factual information that can be verified by any person with access to the church's historical records about when its pastors took office and left.  Ergo Sum  01:01, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * https://historicsites.dcpreservation.org/items/show/828 ?
 * This is the website of the DC Preservation League, a private organization. While I might hesitate to cite to the website for information that sounds like opinion because it is, after all, an organization that (presumably) advocates for historic preservation, I think they qualify as a reliable expert in the field when citing to their website for strictly factual information about historic sites in DC. After all, that is right down the center of the organization's focus.  Ergo Sum  01:22, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * https://htsdc.org/about-hts/history-of-hts/
 * I've replaced this with a better (albeit dead link) ref.  Ergo Sum  01:12, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm a bit concerned about age of some of the sources - are there no more recent sources that could be used? Historical methods have changed a lot - and there was not always a lot of rigor in historical works in the late 1800s and early 1900s.... there were a lot of flattering biographical/historical works put out by various publishers ... are these works considered good sources or are they not cited at all in more recent works?
 * Unfortunately not. Most of the detailed coverage of Neale is historical. However, I've been careful to avoid letting some of the polemicizing and hagiographizing tendencies of some historical works to make their way into the article. Older works are cited to strictly for basic factual and biographical information.  Ergo Sum  01:13, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * "The Georgetown Chapel, later known as Holy Trinity Church and then as the Chapel of St. Ignatius, was called a "chapel" because it remained uncertain whether it was lawful for Catholics to build public churches in the city." is sourced to two sources - https://historicsites.dcpreservation.org/items/show/828 and https://htsdc.org/about-hts/history-of-hts/. I see that the sources support "The Georgetown Chapel, later known as Holy Trinity Church" but I'm not seeing the "then as the Chapel of St. Ignatius" in either source explicitly.
 * That is in the Holy Trinity School source (which I've since replaced with a new ref).  Ergo Sum  01:03, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * "He returned to St. Thomas Manor, where he became pastor of its church, later known as St. Ignatius Church. He served in this office from 1819 until his death," is sourced to https://web.archive.org/web/20110725154706/http://www.chapelpoint.org/historyPastors.asp but that source doesn't support anything except the "He served in this office from 1819" - strictly speaking it doesn't support "until his death" because the source just gives an end date of 1837, not specifically to the exact date of death nor does the source state the end of his office holding was his death.
 * Fair enough. I've rephrased to say just 1837, rather than his death.  Ergo Sum  01:19, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I randomly googled three sentences and nothing showed up except mirrors. Earwig's tool shows no signs of copyright violations.
 * Otherwise everything looks good. Note that I will be claiming points from this review for the wikicup. Ealdgyth (talk) 16:27, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you, .  Ergo Sum  01:23, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I've struck the fixed issues. I'll leave the others out for other reviewers to weigh themselves, although I am not bothered enough by them to oppose. Ealdgyth (talk) 16:24, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Coordinator note
This has been open for more than three weeks and has only picked up the one support. Unless it attracts further favourable attention over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is be liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:33, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I'll take a look. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 15:33, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Comments Support from Kavyansh
That is it. Fine work! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 16:30, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Lead
 * " — suggesting " "
 * I'm generally not a fan of linking to sections in pages unless it's really clear that the section deals directly with the subject discussed and the rest of the article is irrelevant. Here, I think understanding the suppression is necessary to understand the restoration, so I'm inclined to link just to the article. But, I'm open to discussing.  Ergo Sum  02:01, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * "at the Colleges of Bruges and Liège," — our article calls it Colleges of St Omer, Bruges and Liège; which one of the common name?
 * The colleges article explains that the school relocated to Bruges in 1762. Neale would have been 6 years old at the time. This is too young to have been enrolled in the college, so it would be inaccurate to say he attended the College of St Omer. He only attended the College of Bruges and later the College of Liege.  Ergo Sum  02:06, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Not asking you to change anything, but Neale opposed Carroll's formation of Georgetown College, but later served as its president! Did his views change?
 * Isn't it ironic? Not that I can tell. Based on my knowledge of the 19th-century mid-Atlantic Jesuits, Neale likely became president of the college out of necessity, rather than through great selectivity.  Ergo Sum  02:07, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Interesting! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 13:35, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Rest of the article
 * The following terms are overlinked (linked more than once, when they should be linked only on their first instance)
 * Charles County
 * Fixed.  Ergo Sum  02:10, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * priests
 * My general interpretation of the linking policy is that linking once in the lede and once at the first instance in the body, which is the case here, is permitted.  Ergo Sum  02:10, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, but here, it is linked twice in the prose itself (independent of lead). (1) "of the surviving five became Catholic priests" (2) "Following his ordination as a priest on" – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 13:35, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Whoops, missed the second one. Fixed.  Ergo Sum  21:53, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Georgetown College
 * Fixed.  Ergo Sum  02:10, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * nun
 * Fixed.  Ergo Sum  02:10, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Baltimore
 * Fixed.  Ergo Sum  02:10, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Robert Molyenux
 * Molyneux is only linked once in the text.  Ergo Sum  02:10, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * It is twice. (1) "When the president of Georgetown College, Robert Molyenux, was" (2) "The newly appointed superior of the Maryland Jesuits, Robert Molyneux, named" – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 13:35, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Suggestion to download User:Evad37/duplinks-alt. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 13:35, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Fixed.  Ergo Sum  21:53, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * "2,000 acres (810 ha)" v. "40 acres (16 hectares)" — I think we should be consistent whether there should be abbreviation or full form of the units. I prefer where both are in full form.
 * Done.  Ergo Sum  02:12, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * "His parents" — I think at the beginning of every paragrapg, you'll need to replace pronouns like he/him with 'Neale'
 * Done.  Ergo Sum  02:14, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * "Anne Neale née Brooke" — suggesting to keep 'née Brooke' inside parenthesis, and use
 * Done.  Ergo Sum  02:14, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * "Colleges of St Omer, Bruges, or Liège" — (1) inconsistent with the lead (2) I think it is 'Bruges and Liège'
 * (1) see above (2) fixed.  Ergo Sum  02:14, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * "Two of Francies Neale's brothers" — Why do we need to mention the full name, and even if we have to do so, the first name has an extra 'e'
 * Fixed.  Ergo Sum  02:15, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * "Neale greatly enjoyed the rural life" — do we need to specify "greatly"?
 * Removed.  Ergo Sum  02:15, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * "when the Governor of Maryland, Thomas Sim Lee" — 'G' should be lowercase, if my understanding of MOS:JOBTITLE is correct
 * Fixed.  Ergo Sum  02:16, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Suggesting to right-align File:Chapel of St. Ignatius Georgetown DC.jpg
 * I think the section is big enough that left alignment doesn't disrupt the flow and having it left aligned also breaks up the monotony of all the photos being right aligned.  Ergo Sum  02:18, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * "where the present Holy Trinity School now stands" — both 'present' and 'now' in the sentence makes it difficult to read
 * Fixed.  Ergo Sum  02:16, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * "but its location was inconvenient" — how so?
 * Added some detail from the source.  Ergo Sum  02:21, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I doubt if we need a link to agent
 * Unlinked.  Ergo Sum  02:17, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Anything to say about Neale's legacy?
 * I'm sure something can be said, but I don't find any sources that do, so we can't synthesize, unfortunately.  Ergo Sum  02:17, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you,  Ergo Sum   02:21, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Few replies above. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 13:35, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, addressed them above.  Ergo Sum  21:54, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Great work! Supporting! – 18:44, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Comments from Mike Christie
I've copyedited a bit; please revert anything you disagree with. -- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:33, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Was the period of ill health that delayed Neale's arrival in Georgetown the same as the illness that prevented him from transferring to Frederick in 1790?
 * I've gone back and checked the source, and it turns out they were, in fact, one and the same. I've slightly tweaked the language in the article to reflect this. I hope it is clearer now.  Ergo Sum  01:20, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * "Construction on the Georgetown Chapel was altogether complete by March 1794": does "altogether" add anything to "complete"?
 * Just a modifier for emphasis. It's not strictly necessary, though, so I've removed it.  Ergo Sum  01:21, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * "Maryland clergy who were selected from by their peers": presumably should be "from and by"?
 * Yes, that was a typo. Fixed it.  Ergo Sum  01:23, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * "Georgetown College campus, similarly as it appeared during Neale's presidency": "similarly as it appeared" is clumsy. How about "Georgetown College campus in 1829.  It would have looked much the same during Neale's presidency."?  But do you have a source for the similarity of appearance?
 * I agree that it's not the most elegant phrasing, but in general, I like to keep image captions to one sentence whenever possible. If you have a cleaner way of phrasing it as one sentence, please do recommend it. This caption was the subject of discussion above. I doubt there's a source that will compare how Georgetown's built campus appeared at arbitrarily chosen years. The 1993 Curran book (which contains this image), among other sources, describes the progression of construction on the campus. On that basis, I wrote the caption. However, it would be difficult to pin down to any one page or range of pages that discussion this for a citation. For this reason, I generally think a bit of leeway is allowed in writing image captions.  Ergo Sum  01:28, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * If Curran's book describes the progression of construction I think it's fine as the source, and I think it would be OK to cite a large page range, such as a range that covers the entire period up to 1829, the date of the illustration. If you're concerned about a large page range, an embedded comment could explain the reasoning.  I think the wording is not just clumsy but ungrammatical; "similarly as it" is what's bothering me.  How about "Georgetown College campus in 1829, when it would have been little changed since Neale's presidency"? Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 08:53, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Fortunately, I've actually found a page in the Curran book that lists all of the early buildings and the dates of their construction, so a reader can cross-reference the dates of construction with the image and years of Neale's presidency. Also, on second thought, I like your proposed caption and have changed it to that.  Ergo Sum  13:08, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks; I think that looks good. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:13, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * "Neale assumed of treasurer of the Jesuit's Maryland mission": presumably should be "assumed the role of"?
 * Yes, that's correct. Fixed it.  Ergo Sum  01:29, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Can we give the date of his stroke? Even to within a couple of years?  All we know from the text is that it's "before long" after 1819.
 * This was discussed above. Unfortunately, the source does not get any more specific. The most that can be gleaned is that he had a stroke during the time he was in Alexandria.  Ergo Sum  01:30, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comments, .  Ergo Sum  01:30, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Support. All my concerns have been addressed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:13, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 21:35, 31 January 2022 (UTC)