Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Gough Whitlam/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 21:05, 8 May 2010.

Gough Whitlam

 * Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 21:36, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: WP:FFA, has already been on main page

I am nominating this for featured article because... I think it's ready. Gough Whitlam. Probably not Australia's greatest Prime Minister, but certainly its most controversial. Thirty five years after "The Dismissal", the most dramatic moment in Australian political history, when he was fired by the Governor-General, Sir John Kerr, Whitlam is still going (and is still married! 68 years now) and is still active and outspoken at age 93. This article, by the way, was one of our early FAs (and one of the very first TFA's) but fell from grace four years ago. Time for Whitlam to be making a comeback. This is a WikiCup nomination.Wehwalt (talk) 21:36, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

-- Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk ) 21:55, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "It's Time" is a pretty lame slogan to me, but hey :P One bit, is that there's a deadlink.
 * Images:
 * File:EG Whitlam (AWM P04697-001).jpg: missing author/publisher info (how it meets the license requirements).
 * Same thing with File:WhitRAAF.JPG. Where was it published to meet the license?
 * File:Goughandmark.jpg: we really should have verification that the author requested the given license.
 * I'll work on it. Deadlink removed, it was just an EL, legacy from when I started work on the article.  If you get the information sheet linked from the Australian copyright tag (downloadable in pdf format here, it makes it clear that photographs taken before 1969 expired/will expire fifty years after they were taken not published.  In practice, this applies up to 1954 because a new set of rules went into effect 1 January 2005.  It does not matter who took them.  These are out of copyright in Australia as of 1992, which also gets them inside the Berne Convention assession by the US in 1996.  That takes care of the two black and white photos, and the Goughandmark image I've deleted.  Uploader hasn't been active in years.  That should be everything.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:13, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment — I think the prose could do with some smoothing towards the backend. However, this is an interesting article. Well done to all involved.  Aaroncrick  TALK 00:34, 21 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I'll look at it. Many thanks for the comments.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:08, 21 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Why dont we have a persons birth place in the lead?  Aaroncrick  TALK 11:02, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Avoidance of clutter. So the person reading doesn't have to wade through too much to complete the first sentence.  It is traditional, not just on Wiki, to put dates of birth/death.  Place of birth is less crucial, it can go in the infobox.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Support The first thought of this military historian was "not another blue orchid," but this is a great article! Gough may not be the greatest Prime Minister (but he might be - the competition is not that fierce) but this will make a great featured article. Hawkeye7 (talk) 09:29, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the praise. I was afraid that I would make all sorts of hideous errors, as I am not Australian but the local editors show no inclination to feed me to a crocodile, yet.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:02, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Images File:Dismissal751111.jpg no valid FU rationales Fasach Nua (talk) 21:33, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Deleted.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:47, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment: I am about halfway through a comprehensive copyedit. Will report back when I'm done. Scartol •  Tok  15:11, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Many thanks.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:25, 23 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Had a brief look: a bit overlinked and needed some copy-editing. I've tweaked it at the top. Tony   (talk)  04:20, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Many thanks, I'll let Scartol do his work copyediting and I'll look for any overlinking per your diff on the article.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:27, 24 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Comments - beginning a read-through now. Please revert any inadvertent changes to meaning I make. I will jot queries below. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:56, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Support Comments, leaning support : A fascinating article, former FA, prose still slightly off in places. I have done some light copyedits, and have posted minor issues to the Gough Whitlam talkpage to save space here. Further points for attention:-
 * Deputy leader
 * "In early 1966, the party conference, with Calwell's assent, banned any ALP parliamentarian from supporting state aid." Needs to be a bit more informative; all state aid—welfare, unemployment, sickness benefit? Was the Labor party really advocating a total ban on these expenditures? Or does "state aid" have a more specific meaning?
 * Defeat of Jim Cairns (at the end of the section) needs a citation.
 * Reforming the ALP: Final paragraph: The 1971 ALP called for Parliament to receive "such plenary powers as are necessary and desirable" to achieve the ALP's goals in domestic and international affairs. What did this mean, in the context of the Labor Party's former policy of changing the Australian constitution? (and if this had been a party goal since 1918, why didn't they do something about it when they were in power, 1941-49?)
 * I see your note below, which explains why the ALP didn't achieve their constitutional goal when they were in power in the 1940s. What isn't clear is the extent to which the 1971 conference resolution represented a change of party policy. It sounds like they still wanted the vesting of all political power in Parliament. Brianboulton (talk) 22:59, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Leader of the Opposition
 * No real issues here, but it's interesting to see that the snake Rupert Murdoch was up to his familar tricks even then - always support the likely winner of any election, anywhere, regardless of ideology. I bet he wasn't with Gough in 1975.
 * Duumvirate
 * "Given a closely-divided electorate, this usually meant that at most a single seat in each state was contested." Sorry, can't work out what this means.
 * Early troubles
 * I'm not clear as to why ASIO might have wished to conceal or destroy files relating to threats against the Yugoslavian PM. Is something being implied here?
 * Per your comment below, it would be useful if some possible motive for the raid was indicated. Brianboulton (talk) 22:59, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "...Queensland's border with Papua New Guinea, which came within half a kilometre of the Papuan mainland." This presumably arises from Australian-owned islands in the Torres Strait; I think it would help if this was clarified, to avoid questions about the geographical details.
 * "Liberal governments in New South Wales and Victoria..." Perhaps clarify "Liberal state governments..."
 * "...providing the territories representation in the Senate" I think a "with" is missing, but more significantly, this is the first mention of "territories", and readers unfamiliar with Australia may wonder what this refers to.
 * Second term: "Freudenberg points out that 1,026 Vietnamese refugees entered Australia in the final eight months of the Whitlam government, and only 399 in 1976 under Fraser." This post-Whitlam information would be better as a footnote. Otherwise it disturbs the narrative chronology.

More to come (on the exciting part), Brianboulton (talk) 22:26, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Initial response: Yes, the ALP started on the road towards abolishing the constitution and making Parliament sovereign in the 1940s, but hit a brick wall when the Fourteen Powers referendum failed.  In McMinn's book on Australian Constitutional history, he also mentions a number of court decisions and policy choices that increased the federal power vis a vis the states in the 1940s, but that would be too much detail.


 * I am puzzled myself by Senator/Attorney General Murphy's odd ASIO kick. As near as I can gather, and the sources do not go into great detail on this, Labor did not trust the public service.  I can look for more stuff on this issue, a lot of numbers of The Age are in Google news archive.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:32, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * If you are interested, the border issue was eventually settled under Fraser. He couldn't get Bjelke-Petersen to yield, so what he did was literally sit down with the other stakeholders on one of the Torres Strait islands and come to a deal that the local natives would be allowed to boat back and forth in a border zone with minimal restrictions.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:37, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I've implemented those. I struck the sentence about the Senate, it is clearly illustrated later on.  What I meant to say is that, say, if five Senate seats were up in a half Senate election, two would go for sure to Labor and two to the Coalition, and the battle was to win the remaining seat.  That is why, even though Gough got clobbered in 1975, Labor's losses in the Senate were not huge compared to the House.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:46, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

A few more points (plus some extra tiddlers on the talkpage):-
 * Constitutional crisis
 * "Fearing that Whitlam would go to Elizabeth II, Queen of Australia..." I would like an Australian to judge whether this formality reads normally. To me it sounds stiff and artificial; I would prefer plain "Queen Elizabeth" (with link in case people wonder which Queen Elizabeth this is)
 * What about "the Queen", with a link to Elizabeth II?--Wehwalt (talk) 18:14, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That would work fine. Brianboulton (talk) 22:59, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * (later in the same sentence) "he did not give Whitlam any hint of what was coming" should be "Kerr did not give Whitlam any hint of what was coming."
 * "Kerr commissioned Fraser as caretaker Prime Minister, on the assurance he could obtain supply, and would then advise Kerr to dissolve both houses for election." The second comma changes the intended meaning; Frazer was being asked fot two assurances - that he could obtain supply and that he would dissolve parliament. The second comma should be deleted.
 * He was actually being asked for four, Kerr also wanted an assurance there would be no new policies before the election and no investigations of the Whitlam government before the election. Perhaps when I get to that point on the crisis article, I'll include that.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:14, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Return to opposition
 * Which currency is the $500,000? Presumably Australian dollars? 1976 Iraq was pre-Saddam Hussein, a point that should I think be made.
 * It is my view that there is no need to specify Australian currency in an Australian article.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:14, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you're probably right. Brianboulton (talk) 22:59, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The positioning of the cartoon story is odd. The paragraph begins by talking about a supposed scandal, then switches to a different story. What about the scandal?
 * OK now. Great cartoon, added since I last looked. I reckon Mrs G. could have sued, though. Brianboulton (talk) 22:59, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

That is me, done. I'll be back in a day, when I confidently expect to move to full suppport. Brianboulton (talk) 16:25, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Very good, If not commented on, I've done it both here and on talk. Please note above comments.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:14, 26 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I have moved to full support, with the couple of issues noted above still open, but I am sure you will dispose of these satisfactorily. This was, for me, a rare glimpse into Australian politics; I do remember the Gough kerfuffle, but I was too young to take much notice. I look forward to the developing article on the constitutional crisis. Brianboulton (talk) 22:59, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Comments:
 * Introduction - Leader of the Opposition, and the Opposition, are spelled with leading capitals; but commissioning of opposition leader Malcolm Fraser is different. I suggest there should be consistency on spelling of Opposition (or opposition).


 * Early and family life - he was called by his middle name from early childhood is poor syntax. (He has had the same middle name all his life!)  It would be better as from early childhood he was called by his middle name.


 * Early and family life - After reaching 1947, the final paragraph regresses to 1942 to record EGW’s marriage. I suggest the sentence about EGW's marriage in 1942 should be located in its correct chronological place.  The final paragraph can simply begin The couple have been married for more than two-thirds of a century …


 * More later. Dolphin  ( t ) 12:15, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I've done those. I moved the marriage earlier in the chronology, but kept it all together, see what you think.  All I am really trying to do there is establish the length of Whitlam's marriage and to a certain extent the apparent happiness of it, so I don't have to keep referring back to it.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:39, 27 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Support (struck momentarily until below resolved - YM is right about (1) issues with Timor - it was and remains big news, and (2) his support of Latham, this last also was more important that his olympics role - both should be included) - I've been following and tweaking with this -I can't see anything else of vital importance left out (though maybe some embellishment of his vision and the Arts and the change on Australia's cultural landscape, although the Blue Poles episode encapsulates that somewhat). Prose is shaping up nicely - there will be some minor tweaks but no clanger/deal-breakers outstanding. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:46, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Missing The part about East Timor is still only treated as an afterthought, and the Indonesian invasion isn't even explained. There is a public expectation that Australia should help ET because of the locals' guerrilla support for Austrlaia in WW2, and it was widely believed that Whitlam was aware of what was going to happen, but sold them up the creek. Also another big thing was surely Whitlam and Mark Latham; they appeared a lot together in 2004 and it was a big thing about Latham being the new Whitlam and torchbearer....surely this was bigger than the Olympics as Whitlam was not one of the main players to the best of my knowledge, the main players are always the sports administrators and the main celebrity impetus is from globally-loved sporting legends, eg Dawn Fraser and so forth, given that politicians are generally not widely known outside their country (apart from US/UK leaders etc) and that IOC delegates/voters are usually retired sporting figures themselves... Also as far as Freudenberg goes, he was Whitlam's staff member and you'd expect him to say something a bit warped like a Karl Rove book or whatever...About the VN refugee thing, the senior public servants and higher officers (majors and above) escaped straight away on US helicopters and aircraft carriers, but enlisted South Vietnamese soldiers, government secretaries, cleaning ladies, junior officers eg lieutenants etc, were captured and imprisoned for mostly 1-4 years, so there were no refugees that could have been accepted. After they did get released, Fraser's intake was many times higher because the refugees were actually out of jail and could escape by pretending to be fishermen for a few months; I'd say Freudenberg's twisted apologetics be cut and replaced with real, bigger picture, data. Whitlam also posed with the Vietcong flag once...  YellowMonkey  ( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll )  01:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Support  YellowMonkey  ( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll )  00:04, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Deputy leader – The following expression is clumsy: supporting federal assistance to the states which went to both government and private schools, commonly called state aid. The following might be better: ‘supporting federal assistance to the states for spending on both government and private schools, commonly called “state aid”’

Deputy leader - Holt called an election for November. The year (1966) should be added.

Leader of the Opposition - Whitlam came across far better on television. Whitlam performed far better on television?

Constitutional crisis – Whitlam’s 21 October quote should be highlighted in some way – italics, quotation marks or a quote box.

ditto - As the crisis dragged into November, Whitlam attempted to make arrangements for public servants and suppliers to be able to cash cheques at banks by temporary loans which the government would repay once supply was restored. I suggest this sentence is divided with a second sentence beginning: 'This strategy would be financed by temporary loans which the government would repay …'

ditto - Kerr's Official Secretary, David Smith came to Parliament House to proclaim the dissolution from the front steps. I suggest 'came to the front steps of Parliament House to proclaim the dissolution.'
 * Can I vote for this version to be retained? The point is that he made a proclamation from the steps. Hawkeye7 (talk) 05:50, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I also agree, the original is better. If we end with "the front steps", it sets the image so well.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:27, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

More later. Dolphin ( t ) 03:52, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


 * That is fine. It may take me several days to do these, especially the Timor matter.--Wehwalt (talk) 05:07, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * STrangely, the Latham (another FFA) only has one word about it, which I find disagreeable  YellowMonkey  ( vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll )  07:58, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll see what I can dig up too. Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:59, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I've ordered a book on this, and there is some stuff in news articles.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:31, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not finding that Whitlam posed with the Viet Cong flag, I'm finding that he spoke in a hall in which there was a VietCong flag, and he was photographed with that in the background. Nasty little discussion in Parliament about it.  I've got the Latham stuff done, and Dolphin51's corrections (I think putting a quote in a blockquote is sufficient emphasis, I never do more than that).  I will work on the Timor matter and the corrections to the Vietnam issue and that should do it, absent fresh comments.  Next couple of days, I hope.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:43, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Strong support It's Time!  Dolphin  ( t ) 02:24, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Want to support but initial oppose. I believe the photograph of Whitlam's bust is a violation of the artist's copyright in the artwork and probably should not be on WP/WM at all. See section 31 of Australia's copyright act for the right itself, and section 33 for its duration. Regards, hamiltonstone (talk) 23:10, 29 April 2010 (UTC) Having had to rely on FoP before, how could I forget that? Stoopid. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:51, 30 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I think this photo is OK as Australia has freedom of panorama, please see  and the linked materials.  Hope you will withdraw the oppose once you read through that.  If we can't come to an agreement here, I'll remove the image, but think it is properly free use.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:28, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Even Homer nodded. Doh!--Wehwalt (talk) 00:58, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I've addressed, I hope, YellowMonkey and Caliber's concerns. Except if there are further comments or concerns, I think we're in good shape here. Four supports, no opposes, all checks done. "It's time" to make this the 37th FFA to return to the ranks.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:39, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

 Weak Support, owing to some clarity queries :
 * "and led to one post mortem of the Whitlam government, "We did too much too soon."" Odd phrase - whose post-mortem was this? Freudenberg's, or was F. reporting someone else, and if so whom?
 * Freudenberg describes it as the most common self-criticism of Labor supporters.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:15, 4 May 2010 (UTC)


 * "Whitlam founded the Department of Urban Development and, having lived in developing Canberra and Cabramatta, set a goal to leave no urban home unsewered." I don't think any urban home in Canberra would ever have been unsewered, being a 20th century planned city, whereas this sentence makes it sound as though he had lived in such coditions there. The causality implicit in this sentence structure may need to be revisited.
 * Rephrased.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:11, 4 May 2010 (UTC)


 * "...he interrupted an extensive tour of Europe for only 48 hours to view the devastation". I don't get the "only" here. Two whole days to look at flattened buildings in what was then just a large country town? Why "only"?
 * I've struck the word "only" and rephrased to include explanation that many Australians saw the period as too brief. If need be, I can add that the papers were running photographs of the ruins of Darwin side by side with images of Whitlam inspecting more ancient ruins in Europe.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:18, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "According to journalist and author Wallace Brown, the controversy over the raid continued to..." Only problem is, the preceding sentences have said nothing about why it would be controversial, or what that controversy was. makes it hard for a reader to understand the idea that it continued to dog the govt, when it isn't clear why it was an issue.
 * I think that the reader will understand that one law enforcement agency raiding another, with a Minister leading the charge is ... unusual. I have added a couple of sentences about the controversy.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:03, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "Whitlam appointed Murphy anyway." Doesn't make sense coming after the explanation that is offered, because that explanation is an account of why Whitlam believed there would be no political cost to making the appointment. Given there was no political cost, why "anyway", and, therefore, why have the sentence at all? Am i missig something here?
 * See below, and I've spelled it out anyway now.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:31, 3 May 2010 (UTC)


 * "In August 1975, Whitlam gave the Gurindji people of the Northern Territory title deeds to part of their traditional lands, beginning the process of Aboriginal land reform. The next month, Papua New Guinea became independent" Is the point that Australia granted that independence? Doesn't sound connected to Australia as currently written.
 * Made it clearer.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:31, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Might get to more later. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:14, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Response I will get to these later in the day, when I have the chance of viewing my reference material. Regarding the Murphy appointment, please reread it.  The point is, Labor could conceivably win 3 out of 5 at the next half Senate election, (three out of five of the short term NSW senators were Labor) if six seats were on offer, it was still going to win no more than three, therefore, the Murphy appointment represented what would be most likely a lost seat.  And of course with the Bunton appointment it was a lost seat even sooner than they thought, though Bunton voted with Labor on the supply votes.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:58, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for clarifying the Murphy thing, that reads better. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:15, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I think I've answered all your concerns. OK, six supports, no opposes, all checks done.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:18, 4 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Further comment
 * THe article was missing the name of his mother, and the fact that he had a sibling (my online source does not give a name). I have added this.
 * In the early 1990s, a group of Australian musicians, Tim Freedman, Stevie Plunder and Andy Lewis formed the band The Whitlams (named, as you can imagine, after the former PM), and included a song on their first album, called "Gough". In 1998 they won three ARIA awards, for Best Independent Album, Song of the Year and Best Group: see This page from the ARIA website. The award was presented by Whitlam himself: see this page from The Whitlams' official webpage. Given their prominence on the music scene, and Gough Whitlam's presence at the awards (and his image on their first album cover: see File:INTRODUCING THE WHITLAMS.jpg), I think this needs to be acknolwedged somehow in the "Ambassador and elder statesman" section. I'm just not sure how. Come to think of it, the album cover, provided the album and award ceremony was explicitly covered in the text, could qualify for fair use in the article and may be a more interesting illustration than the photo of him at the stolen generations event. Thoughts? hamiltonstone (talk) 23:39, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Sister's name was Freda, I'll add that. As for the Whitlams, there was a see also, I took it out, I'll add it back in.  Unfortunately, I don't think fair use would fly, it would be principally decorative.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:09, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. The ref i cited does not contain her name, so you are you able to add or substitute a source that will cover that? I have a tedious image nitpick, but thought I should make it, as this place seems pretty hard line about images. It concerns File:Whitlam1955.jpg. The inscription on the back reportedly stated "Photo supplied by Mr Whitlam 28.1.1955". The copyright claim being made for it being public domain is that it is a government owned photograph over 50 years old (criterion E). However, the definition of ownership states: "owned means where a government is the copyright owner". However, this appears not to be the case with this image. As far as I can see, the inscription on the image indicates that the Parliamentary Library owned that copy of the image, but the copyright would be Mr Whitlam's (who "supplied" the image). That being the case, I would have though criteria A or B would apply, not E, in which case the image appears to miss out on being PD by a month. Thoughts? hamiltonstone (talk) 06:34, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Date supplied and date taken are two different things, of course. I may contact the Whitlam institute or Whitlam's office, if I can find contact info for it, and ask them if they know when it was taken.  If it was a standard publicity photo for Whitlam, it may have been taken prior to 1955 (remember, photos had to be developed!), but in the meantime, I've taken it out of the article and used the metal bust as the lead image.  I've added a ref re sister.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:09, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, I did look into getting public domain images of Whitlam from the National Archives here in the US. Whitlam visited President Nixon at the White House.  However, my contact at the Nixon Library tells me that images for that date are not yet indexed.  Also, the Nixon Library is not open for research presently due to materials being sent out there from the Maryland branch of the Archives.  I am planning to go to California in late July, after the planned reopening on July 1, and plan to spend two days there looking at this and other research matters.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:37, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * You are one very committed wikipedian and researcher, and we are all lucky to have your contributions. I hated raising that issue, because it really is a very good image. I hope it makes it back in the end. You've done a good job with bringing this up to standard. hamiltonstone (talk) 23:18, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks much, I enjoyed doing it. If an image is bad, well, it has to go.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:29, 5 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Six supports, no opposes. All checks done.  Just about everyone who has expressed comments has weighed back in to say the comments were addressed, and even if they didn't, the comments were addressed anyway.  "We want Gough!  We want Gough!  We want Gough!"--Wehwalt (talk) 14:17, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Comments by Karanacs. I found the text very dry, and in some places confusing. Below is the list of things that jumped out at me while reading: Karanacs (talk) 15:04, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not fond of making references to him as Prime Minister in the sections on his early life. That type of jumping in and out of the chronology is always jarring to me.
 * Is it really important to compare Whiltam to Bert Evatt? In the next section, the article explicitly mentions his priveleged background; we may not need to bring this up again
 * The paragraph on his maiden speech is not entirely clear. Who reminded McEwen that he wasn't supposed to speak?  Is this referring to Whitlam's comments?  Did Whitman actually mention Disraeli, or did Whitlam's word choice simply evoke Disraeli's words?
 * The next paragraph mentions debate in the House. Were Whitlam's comments out of the ordinary for debate?
 * If neither electorate had a high school, how did the move mean longer journeys? Those two pieces of the sentence don't seem to be related
 * Do we need to know that Margaret Whitlam was interested in swimming pools and swimming clubs?
 * Do we perhaps need more details on what he actually did as part of the Parliamentary Joint Committee..., since that appears to have been such an influence on him?
 * Is there a reason that Calwell thought Whitlam was a hindrance in the 1961 election? Was it personal dislike or something about their politics?
 * In the 1st paragraph of Reforming the ALP, who is the executive? I'm confused over the difference between executive and leader
 * Is there anything that Whitlam actually did in the legislature? Did he sponsor any bills, be instrumental in the passage or failure of any legislation?  We're getting a good picture of how he moved up in the ranks of the party, but there is a blur of what he actually did as a legislator.  Perhaps this is just a difference between the US system and the parliamentary system....
 * In the Legacy section, I think there may be some trivial details. Do we really need to devote a paragraph (or any text) to his testimonay at the 2007 inquest?  Do we really need a paragraph on Whitlam's support of Latham?

@Karanacs, speaking on the last point - yeah, the support of Latham was prominent in the press at the time, and interesting given what happened next (to Latham that is). Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:14, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Responses I'll take a look at the points I don't address right now.
 * The only Whitlam as PM is the growing up in Canberra matter. I will strike the Evatt and move the pipe to him to later.
 * I will make it clear that Cabramatta was farther from the schools (in Sydney) than Cronulla. Still is, actually.
 * Whitlam's comments were strong, but not terribly unusual. He was not ruled unparliamentary on any of them.
 * Well ... in view of the fact that Margaret Whitlam swam for Australia in the 1938 Empire Games, I think it is relevant. I can't totally ignore Margaret.
 * The Federal Executive is the 12 member body that most commonly meets to govern the party and enforce policy.  The Federal Conference meets less frequently, and then there are biennial Party Conferences.  Confusing, but ... the previous section explains exactly what the Federal Executive is.  Would it help if I capitalised Executive?
 * I think the lack of specific accomplishments as a backbencher is due to the fact that the ALP was in opposition and so he would not have had many chances to propose legislation. Amendments, sometimes.  In addition, pre-Whitlam as leader, the Opposition did not have a shadow cabinet.  He was just very good at confronting the Coalition.
 * Hocking does not say why Calwell thought Whitlam as deputy cost him the election, it merely says that he did.
 * Both Timor and Latham are important parts of Whitlam's legacy and Aussies will expect that info to be there.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:32, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I've made a few changes for clarity, pursuant to the comments above.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:59, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * As a side note, Oakes and Solomon mentions that the emnity between Whitlam and Calwell began in 1955, when Whitlam proposed a "spill" motion in Caucus designed to dislodge Calwell from his deputy leadership. That perhaps would be tedious to put in the article.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:14, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Can I add a side-note to Karanacs re what Whitlam "did in the legislature". You are right, this is partly about differences in political system. Individual members of Australian parliaments do not play significant roles as bill sponsors, and the committees are not significant in the way that Congressional ones are. In Aust, it is overwhelmingly about parties, and therefore becoming powerful within the party, and then its leader, is the crucial dynamic. Cheers, hamiltonstone (talk) 23:06, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks to everyone for the explanations of individual's roles in the parliamentary system. I like the idea of capitalizing "Executive". When I see the small e I think of a single person, which is why I was confused. Also, as to Margaret, she has her own article.  Why do her accomplishments need to be here, unless they are directly related to her husband, and these don't appear to be? Karanacs (talk) 13:34, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll capitalise Executive. I have struck the language on Margaret and the swimming club.  Most politicians' spouses don't have articles, but she does, and the reader can turn for information there.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:57, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Sources comment: All look good. Brianboulton (talk) 02:21, 7 May 2010 (UTC)


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