Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/King Crimson/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 16:20, 5 November 2007.

King Crimson[edit]

Nom restarted (Old nom) Raul654 02:18, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. Gave the first paragraph of the lead a small copyedit. Several questions (I'll add more as I come across them):
  • What genre/type of contemporary musical artists have King Crimson influenced? It wasn't obvious from the reference given.
  • "In the late 1960s, the band were influential in popularising a previously unexplored mellotron rock style". Is this rock music using mellotrons (The Beatles used a mellotron in "Strawberry Fields Forever") or a subgenre? It's not clear.
Although you might be discouraged by some of the feedback here, the amount of work you've put in has greatly improved the article; keep it up. CloudNine 21:42, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Right. I'd say that although King Crimson were not the first to use the mellotron, they certainly were regarded as pioneers in its use. Also, the reference states that King Crimson "have influenced hundreds of bands in the Avant-garde, Progressive and Heavy Metal area, always being ahead of their time" - that should answer your question.--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 15:35, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Thorough and engaging article. I made some edits to make myself happy. --maclean 19:53, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Needs a copy-edit. Here are random samples of why someone else needs to come on board to sift through it.
    • Remove "also" from the second sentence.
    • "Although ... although".
    • "mid 1970s"—hyphen
    • 37 seconds is over the normal limit for a fair-use clip. Remove "It is believed that" from the infopage. Who believes? But the accompanying main text on these clips is good. 33 seconds might just be OK, but if it fades at the end of the clip (it probably should), take the timing only up the the start of the fade.
    • England: little-known country that needs a link.
    • Logical punctuation not consistently applied—Gibson."
      • The full quotation is "For me, being on stage with King Crimson is like Lenny Kravitz playing with Led Zeppelin, or Britney Spears onstage with Debbie Gibson." This is the punctuation of the source cited, and I see no reason to believe that this was not a full sentence when spoken; in short, this is the best available logical punctuation - one of the problems with the system is that it is difficult to install retrospectively. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:05, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Errant space after one em dash. Tony (talk) 02:31, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Oppose: Though I'm impressed to see an editor has put so much work into such an obscure band, I don't think it's ready yet. Your sources are good (though there's heavy reliance on Bruce Eder) and the research is solid, but the writing kills it. For example, under Musical themes: Some of King Crimson's albums are noted for sounding very similar to one another, whilst others are known for sounding vastly different. That line instantly would kill any support I could offer for this article! Can't you make the same argument for nearly every band? But, beyond that, in that section, there's this: Other themes harder to document clearly include the composition of difficult passages for individual instruments (especially Fripp's guitar, notably during "Fracture" on Starless and Bible Black); pieces with a loud, aggressive sound not unlike heavy metal music, and the juxtaposition of ornate tunes and ballads with unusual, often dissonant noises. That's one sentence! Do some work on the prose throughout then let me know and I'll re-review it. --Midnightdreary 02:39, 12 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Nice job on the copy edit. I like how you fixed the sentences I pointed out in particular. Based on this edit, I am changing my vote. Personally, I would suggest changing the first line "King Crimson are..." to "King Crimson is..." Technically, the band itself is singular, isn't it? --Midnightdreary 01:41, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: A band is pleural in British English. ♫ Cricket02 04:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reject & Oppose For reasons of:

  • Confusion due to writing that does not flow smoothly.
  • Lack of images throughout article. #3

Requests:

  • Please focus parts of the article more on their impact, be it cultural, commercial or whatever you deem appropriate.
  • Create a section for reception or something of the sort.

Leranedo 06:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose The main problem here is the prose. I just can't follow the story with all the extra details choking it up, and some of it borders on trivia. For example:
  • "According to Fripp, Beelzebub would be an anglicised form of the Arabic phrase "B'il Sabab", meaning "the man with an aim".[9] However, the original name is understood to be from ba'al zebul, "Lord of the High Place". (The name was later popularly corrupted to ba'al zevel, "Lord of the Dungheap", and ba'al zevuv, "Lord of the Flies", because the god's statue was constantly covered in blood." What does this even mean? I'm lost.
  • "McDonald had been writing songs with lyricist Peter Sinfield who also joined the new group, in a band called Infinity, which briefly included Fairport Convention singer Judy Dyble." How did he "join the new group in a band called infinity"?
  • "Ian McDonald and Michael Giles left King Crimson to pursue solo work, recording the McDonald and Giles studio album in 1970. McDonald went on to be a founding member of Foreigner in 1976"
  • "King Crimson has had 17 musicians pass through its ranks as full band members" put this in the lead, it makes me want to read more!
  • "Muir left the group in early 1973 following an on-stage injury and joined a Buddhist monastery in Scotland."
  • "However, technical issues with some of the original tapes rendered some of David Cross' violin parts inaudible when mixed in 1974, so Eddie Jobson was brought in to provide studio overdubs of violin and keyboards. Further edits were also necessary to allow for the time limitations of a single vinyl album." Why is this in the history section?

I get so lost trying to read this article. It's hard enough following the ins and outs of the 17 full members. A lot of the problem is due to the fact that the band had so many changes of personnel, but this encumbers the writer to make an even greater effort to summarize and "cohesify" the article. Instead of being engaged and drawn in, I am turned away by the sheer complexity of every paragraph, with so many new names, places, etc. You might consider making a timeline-chart to show how the band evolved over time, which could make it easier to understand the history. But although the article has loads of detail, I just can't follow. Jeff Dahl (Talk • contribs) 22:24, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • As the nominator has not been active since Sept 14, I will try to address this, though all I know about the band is what I read here and in some of the online references while reviewing. On your first, third, and fifth bullets I agree and removed some text but ensured the points were in the relevant articles on the individual people. On the second bullet, I checked the reference and clarified. On the fourth bullet, I agree and incorporated them in the appropriate sections. On the sixth bullet, I don't follow - can I just remove those two sentences? My edits are here: [1] --maclean 02:36, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for taking up the cause. The more I read it, though, the more concerns I have. For instance, the Membership section seems to just repeat what's been said in the history section, and is merely a list of the members and where their careers went after leaving KC. I still can't follow the history section; it really needs to be rewritten rather than simply amputated. Jeff Dahl (Talk • contribs) 15:45, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I brought the "Membership" section in line with the other FAs on musical groups by simply reducing it to a list: [2] --maclean 04:56, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment – I wonder can you find any copyright-free or even fair-use images to add to the one in the infobox. There have to be some around. I think it would significantly add to the visual appeal of the article. Here is one suggestion for you Image:KC newspaper.jpg Good luck. ww2censor 15:57, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks people. I haven't had the internet for a month and a half; I see good work has been done here. I don't think I could really improve this page any further.-h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 18:32, 27 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Writing, references look very good. (Ibaranoff24 13:40, 3 November 2007 (UTC))[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
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